It would seem that Edwina and I are on the same page throughout most of this topic. It is often said that the founding fathers of America understood something about human nature, hence their emphasis on minimal government. What was that "something?" Let me posit a guess. IMHO, it would proceed by way of the following reasoning:
1. Idealists are usually well-intentioned enough. They see the world through rose-coloured glasses and want to fix things that they perceive are "wrong" or "broken." But accompanying their best intentions is a problem... a very intractable problem; 2. To make the naive but well-intentioned vision of idealists work, they need to harness cultural groupthink, and they need to implement the machinery of bureaucracies... ie, big government. They need to give license to groupthink to make it work. The person that assimilates well into the cogs of bureaucratic groupthink is a very different kind of animal to the naive but well-intentioned idealist; 3. The typical idealist is usually a very congenial person with passions and ideas. The typical bureaucrat (at least from the perspective of my own experience as a whistleblower-turned-refugee) is usually a secretive troglodyte that maps his own agenda to the purpose of the greater bureaucratic machine. He uses the bureaucratic machine, principally, to further his own ends, and his ideal situation is synergy between his own agenda and that of the bureaucracy. Any person that is perceived as a threat to both agendas is perceived as dangerous and is to be eliminated. In the meantime, while all this takes places under the cover of The Privacy Act, EEO, FOI, HR, and other such smoke-and-mirrors hogwash, the bureaucracy carries on its people-friendly masquerade that is usually publicly associated with the intentions of the idealists. I think that America's founding fathers were onto something. How tragic that it's all falling into a heap now. This then, is the crux of the problem. Bureaucracies require the application of a very different kind of groupthink psychology to that of the individualistic idealist that inspires them... the secrets and hidden agendas that make the behemoth of stoopid work are very different to the congenial, public best wishes of the idealists, and there is no solution to this conflict of interest. It is at this juncture that the well-intentioned idealist becomes naught but a useful idiot... useful as a public face of the bureaucratic machine that takes on a life of its own. sj From: Edwina Taborsky [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, 11 July 2015 2:54 PM To: Thomas Cc: Benjamin Udell; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Recently published: Hitler and Abductive Logic Yes, very nice outline, Thomas, of the strength of the 'melting pot' tactic, which I support. And that's why I'm against the current focus on 'multiculturalism' and 'identity politics' which is all the rage in America and Europe now. It actually retains and fosters those ancient irrational tribal hatreds. And any 'progressive' who, in their multicultural/identity political sanctimonious zeal doesn't understand that these minority enclaves - which are kept insular by multiculturalism/identity politics.... can be even more racist, bigoted and irrational than any majority...is naive in the extreme. Edwina ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas <mailto:[email protected]> To: Edwina Taborsky <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Benjamin Udell <mailto:[email protected]> ; <mailto:[email protected]%3e> <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Recently published: Hitler and Abductive Logic Edwina ~ Germans and the other groups you listed have all assimilated into American society, and none of the nationalities or races have proved particularly intractable. The melting pot is imperfect, but it does a good job of challenging cultural myths and ancient hatreds that seem to continue for centuries in closed/insular societies. The demagogues of America appeal to the down-and-out of most/all nationalities -- almost as though they're broad-minded humanists. That reveals a focus on laws and justice, as opposed to settling scores with ancient enemies. By contrast, Europe, Asia and the Middle East are comprised of far more insular societies. Historically most people there have been poor and ruled by often-brutal and almost-always deceitful autocrats who coopted the church to hold onto power. Little wonder that warlords and terrorists have played such a big role in their political histories. Regards, Tim Wyrick On Jul 10, 2015, at 6:05 PM, Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> wrote: Yes, stereotypes are basic to our identification of 'identity groups' - whether it be Jews, Italians, Germans, Russians, Chinese. Such distorted and simplistic images-of-the-other are found among all people. Americans are viewed by Europeans as...and so on. But the few key variables of behaviour that we understand to define 'that nationality' are not, in my view, an explanation for the rise of fascism in Germany. That is, my point is that we are all as human beings, susceptible to emotional blindness in our political and societal views; we aren't at all 'rational beings' when dealing with political and social affairs. Therefore, if the economic and societal order breaks down, I'd say that we are all susceptible to fascism. There is a critical threshold when the rule of law, the political order, the societal order, the economic viability breaks down - and a power-bloc can move in and take over..and then, impose its fascism. The ideology of 'old Germany', with its aristocracy, its ideals of governance had little to do with the ideology of 'pure race' of Nazism, nor the Nazi focus on nationalism as a biological construct and the contempt for 'lesser beings'. After all, the British upper class had a similar focus as the old Germans on 'noblesse oblige', strict rules of behaviour, a military career and so on - and were not susceptile to fascism. [But many were susceptible to communism/socialism!]. There were plenty of people in the old upper class and the middle class of Germany who were opposed to fascism and Nazism. Yes, the horrors of WWII did bring a requirement that US military bases remain in Germany after 1990 reunification - but, logically, such a demand by the French and others cannot PROVE that, 'Germans are basically capable of moving back into fascism' without such a presence. That is - the modus ponens statement of: IF there are bases, THEN, they will be peaceful" can't be turned around to declare: 'They are peaceful; that's because there are bases'. (Fallacy of Affirming the Consequent). So- I am not convinced that the German people are predisposed to fascism, nor that Hitler's rise was a mysterious event. I remain focused on the economic, political and societal infrastructure - which can decimate a culture's deep beliefs in a decade. We have our own examples. Edwina ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin Udell <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Recently published: Hitler and Abductive Logic Having grown up in the 1960s on Manhattan's West Side, when WWII wasn't so long ago and a German accent was immediately associated to movies and TV series about Nazis, I admit that I may be unduly predisposed to regard certain strains of militarism, morality by government fiat, and 'just taking orders' as problematic aspects of the early-20th-Century German culture. Also I read _Roots of the Nazi Mentality_ when I was an impressionable kid. But I don't think that power affairs (military+politics) and economics are everything against culture (glamour!) and society (status!) as some sort of zero. You've a case to make there, Edwina, if you wish to convince people. The problematic character of early-20th-Century German attitudes - militarism, morality by government fiat, 'just taking orders' - have not gone unnoticed by anybody around Germany. The reunification of Germany in the 1990s involved US guarantees of maintaining military bases in Germany, guarantees sought by the French and other governments. Best, Ben On 7/10/2015 3:16 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: No, Helmut, I don't think that the German people 'had more barbaric instincts than other people'. We are all similar in our capacity for emotional irrationality and violence. When a societal system of law and order breaks down for various reasons, i.e., is not providing security, is not functioning in a just and fair manner, is corrupt, , is subverted by a higher authority - then, the 'cooling off' phase of rational examination of the situation is rejected - and we get either a mob, or a 'controlled mob, i.e., a band of thugs'. Democracy is not, in itself, a barrier against barbarism. As Tolstoy said, 'Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority shares in it'. Democracy, to be just, requires a constitution and the rule of law, set up as created by men, and capable of change by men, but applicable to all. Edwina ----- Original Message ----- From: Helmut Raulien To: Ozzie Cc: Edwina Taborsky ; <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]> ; Peirce List Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 2:51 PM Subject: Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Recently published: Hitler and Abductive Logic I agree, that his "abduction-type message is" only "a big part of that success". Tenacity, authority and apriori also are. I wrote, that a false abduction to laypersons of logic can look like a proper conclusion. But not all Germans were too much laypersons to see the lies (eg. Heidegger). Nevertheless they followed him. Putting the emphasis on Hitlers intelligent ways of manipulation should not assign him a bigger part of the guilt, and lessen the guilt of the Germans. They had more barbaric instincts than the other peoples, and were no democrats. Other in than other nations, there has not been a democratic constitution initiated by the people. Best, Helmut Ozzie <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]> _____ ----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm . ----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. 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