John, Jon, list

Some comments in response

In Peirce's view logic needs mathematical grounds, but I have not found anything to support the view that there should be such sharp distinction as you propose. – There were many, many classifications of sciences he developed over the years. Of which latest ones should be given precedence. According to Peirce, the expession 'should be' has no meaning, if no aim is involved. If and when it is agreed that Peirce was aiming at something better, then this becomes self-evident, does it not?

I have difficulties in understanding what is meant by

John:

Game theoretical semantics (GTS) is just a mathematical theory.
As pure mathematics, Peirce would not object to it.

My understanding of what Peirce meant by pure math just does not fit with this statement. I won't even try to express how and why. Instead, I take up the question at hand.

Hintikka's early lectures on game theory were addressed to philosophers and social scientists, as part of the curriculum of practical philosophy at Helsinki University.

Prisoner's dilemma played a major role. I wonder whether it has been taken up by the means of existential graphs? Would like very much to see it/them.

My interest lies in that it presents the Dilemma of Achilles and tortoise in other cloths. The (seemingly) physical problem is dressed up as a (seemingly) social problem in Prisoner's Dilemma.

Peirce did not object to the former, he just solved it. Thus I see no reason why he would have objected the latter, he just would have shown it to be a pseudoproblem.

Both dilemmas exist. No doubt about that. – But are they real problems, is quite another kind of issue. An issue about the relations between thought and language, but not only.

As soon as the latter dilemma is given the name 'Prisoner's dilemma', a host of presuppositions are taken in. – Let's just make a seemingly tiny change. Let's call it 'Prisoners dilemma', thus omitting a grammatical detail, which deeply affects the meaning conveyed. – The logical move entails a move from one to many. Not something to be overlooked or dismissed, surely.

In GTS it has been. But now I have pointed it out, a needle in the haystock of GTS. If you feel no sting, then I must have overestimated your logical sensitivity.

I have studied Peirces writings on existential graphs in a preliminary way, just to get the general idea & to understand it's proper place within Peirce's philosophy. After testing the idea on the contents of further (and further…) reading CSP, it holds. After testing it in the light of your most valuable teachings, it seems to hold. - Which is why I get deeply puzzled if and when your views on CSP are not, well, congruent.

Also, I wish to point out the currently common (sense?) misunderstanding with the term DIALOGUE. The very word is taken as referring to a discussion involving two (and only two) participants. As if Greek 'DIA' would mean two, which it does not. It just means 'between'.

Thus I find

Jon:

Peirce's explanation of logical connectives and quantifiers
in terms of a game between two players attempting to support
or defeat a proposition, respectively, is a precursor of many
later versions of game-theoretic semantics.

as neclecting something essential (in a Peircean view). The implied third is the audience ( from 'dear reader' on…). 'There is one…' claims a possibility. 'All…' claims a necessity. In between the lies the realm of probable inference, abduction, hypothesis & the lot.

The idea of continuity is of course needed to understand the the real nature both dilemmas and to solve them. Both are pseudoproblems, in the positive meaning of the term offered in EG. Really solving them, of course, goes beyond the proper realm of existential graphs. Gamma graphs would be needed.

But if the meaning of the term 'formal theory' is for starters defined as just a part of math, then … Well, what? Does math then mean anything else but 'formal'?

Wondering,

Kirsti


John F Sowa kirjoitti 2.11.2017 22:08:
Gary F, Jeff BD, Kirsti, Jon A,

I didn't respond to your previous notes because I was tied up with
other work.  Among other things, I presented some slides for a telecon
sponsored by Ontolog Forum.  Slide 23 (cspsci.gif attached) includes
my diagram of Peirce's classification of the sciences and discusses the
implications.  (For all slides: http://jfsowa.com/talks/contexts.pdf )

Among the implications:  The sharp distinction between "formal logic",
which is part of mathematics, from logic as a normative science and the
many studies of reasoning in linguistics, psychology, and education.

Peirce was very clear about the infinity of mathematical theories.
As pure mathematics, the only point to criticize would be the clarity
and precision of the definitions and reasoning.  But applications may
be criticized as irrelevant, inadequate, or totally wrong.

Gary
as late as 1909 Peirce was still trying (apparently without success)
to get Lady Welby to study Existential Graphs. And the graphs he sent
her to study look pretty much the same as the graphs he introduced
in the Lowell Lecture 2: nested cuts, areas defined by the cuts,
and no shading.

That failure may have been one of the inspirations for the 1911 version,
which he addressed to one of her correspondents.

[JFS] The rules are *notation independent*:  with minor adaptations
to the syntax, they can be used for reasoning in a very wide range
of notations...

[GF] This does not explain why Peirce was dissatisfied with algebraic
notations (including his own) and invented EGs for the sake of their
optimal iconicity

On the contrary, simplicity and symmetry enhance iconicity and
generality.  See the examples in http://jfsowa.com/talks/visual.pdf :

 1. Shading of negative phrases in English (slides 28 to 30) and the
    application of Peirce's rules to the English sentences.

 2. Embedded icons in EG areas (Euclid's diagrams, exactly as he drew
    them) and the option of inserting or erasing parts of the diagrams
    according to those rules (slides 33 to 42).

3. And the rules can be generalized to 3-D virtual reality. I couldn't
    draw the examples, but just imagine shaded and unshaded 3-D blobs
    that contain 3-D icons (shapes) with parts connected by lines.  I'm
    sure that Peirce imagined such applications when he was writing
    about stereoscopic equipment (which he could not afford to buy).

Gary
“Peirce said that a blank sheet of assertion is a graph.  Since it's
a graph, you can draw a double negation around it.”  — Eh? How can
you draw anything around the sheet of assertion, which (by Peirce’s
definition) is unbounded??

But note Jeff's comments about projective geometry and topology
(which Peirce knew very well):

Jeff
My reason for picking this example of a topological surface is that
it provides us with an example of a 2 dimensional space in which
a path can be drawn all of the way "around" the surface...

Yes.  And that infinite space bounded by its infinite circle can be
mapped -- point by point -- to a finite replica on another sheet.
In any case, the formal logic does not depend on the details of any
representation.  We can just use the word 'blank' to name an empty
sheet of assertion or any finite replica of it.

Gary
I’m reluctant to apply topological theories to EGs if they’re going
to complicate the issues instead of simplifying them.

For a mathematician, Jeff's method is an enormous simplification.
Finite boundaries in mathematics and computer science are always
a nuisance.  But when you're teaching EGs to students, you can just
use the word 'blank' for an empty area.  A pseudograph is just an
enclosure that contains a blank.

Gary
John appears to regard all graphs, all partial graphs and all areas
as being on the sheet of assertion. But Peirce says explicitly that
neither the antecedent nor the consequent of a conditional can be
scribed on the sheet of assertion...

My diagrams (with or without shading) are isomorphic to Peirce's.
Talking about sheets doesn't generalize to other logics or to 3-D
icons.  It makes the presentation more complex and confusing.

Kirsti
I attended Hintikka's lectures on game theory in early 1970's.
No shade of Peirce. I found them boring.

Game theoretical semantics (GTS) is just a mathematical theory.
As pure mathematics, Peirce would not object to it.

Kirsti
it hurts my heart and soul to read a suggestion that Peirce's
endoporeutic may have or could have been a version of Hintikka's
game theoretical semantics.

Jon
Peirce's explanation of logical connectives and quantifiers
in terms of a game between two players attempting to support
or defeat a proposition, respectively, is a precursor of many
later versions of game-theoretic semantics.

Risto Hilpinen (1982) showed that the formal theory of Peirce's
endoporeutic is equivalent to GTS.  As a formal theory, Peirce
would have no objection to GTS or to any proof of formal
equivalence.

Peirce's motivation was the similarity to his theory of inquiry:
a dialog between two parties, one who proposes a theory and one
who is skeptical.  The proposer is trying to find evidence for it,
and the skeptic is trying to find evidence against it.

Hintikka's applications had some similarities and some differences.
But that's a topic that goes beyond the EG issues.

John

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