Edwina, List,
I think that this is the first time that I don't agree with you...
already two times in the last days.
1. "semiotics has nothing to say about such an analogy"
If the Peircean semiotic has nothing to say, then we should close the List.
I think that exegesis of Peirce's work should not be the only task of
the List.
Peircean Semiotic can help to think more carefully in any kind of
research (why no not Art History), something that the
Saussurean/Greimasean Semiology can not do except for the verbal language.
2. "this is getting into a complex over-intellectualized outline of what
is actually a simple, basic analogy"
NOTHING is a simple, basic (automatic) analogy (that apparently
everybody is able to reach)... or the world would be a better place to
live in.
'Die Neuigkeit' of a Nativity with refugees can not be considered a
simple event. At least anthropological, sociological, and psychological
very complex socio-cultural aspects are involved and the sister of Peter
is trying to give a reason-way of that new unusual event.
The Peircean triadic semiotic proposal is in itself the most complex and
important analytical tool available today (not considering the Semiotic
Nonagon as a consequential practical device).
I receive 'normaler Weise' negative dismissing generalizations, I would
prefer to know a concrete criticism, a better approach than that which
is possible with the SN.
Anyway, Edwina, I admire your constant commitment with the List.
All the best to all
Claudio
PS: I have sent a .GIF with the scheme of the SN, have you got it?
Because below it is blank.
Edwina Taborsky escribió el 29/12/2017 a las 13:24:
Claudio, list:
My own view is that I think that this is getting into a
complex over-intellectualized outline of what is actually a simple,
basic analogy. As I see it, none of this - what can certainly be an
enjoyable intellectual exercise for the academic mind - enlightens us
any further than an immediate visual observation of
the simple analogy between the two images of Refugee Families.
Edwina
On Fri 29/12/17 11:11 AM , Claudio Guerri claudiogue...@gmail.com sent:
Dear Peter, Edwina, List,
Even without a concrete image about the fact, we can imagine what
was going on, and since everything is a sign, and every sign can
be analyzed triadically, and since every aspect of a sign is also
a sign, the Semiotic Nonagon is a way of considering the
always-complex taxonomy and the interrelations at the same time.
What follows is a very quick and incomplete approach the sign:
refugee’s nativity in Trondheim. All very interesting comments
written on the List can find a relative place in the SN. For
example: Eugene Halton 28xii17 explains various interesting
aspects of the sequence “symbols grow”, but the narrative lineal
(Saussurean) sequence of the verbal language, gives the impression
of a positivistic outcome: one absolute/complete meaning (let me
exaggerate a bit)… the SN shows that the sequence 7-4-1 has also
consequences in 8-5-2 and in 9-6-3 that are interesting
interrelations for an historian.
I think that the most important proposal of Peirce is not the
taxonomy of the different aspect itself, but the interrelation and
the role of each aspect in relation to the rest.
On behalf of this original subject, my quick outcome is very
general, but it can be completed and corrected by the historian
that really knows about that singular event and then, eventually,
make some conclusions...
nativiy
Table 1: this is the empty skeleton of the Semiotic Nonagon
(semiotic device for “design thinking”). The SN is a tool to
organize how much I know about something.
A summary description of the 9 interrelated ‘boxes’
a) Using the sequence “symbols grow”
7. Form of Value (Legising)Here we can analyze the actual cultural
context in which the problem appears as a social necessity. In
this case the cultural context is Trondheim, Norway, could not be
Argentina, we don’t have refugees… yet… Could this event take
place also outside Trondheim, in Sweden, in Italy…?
4. Form of Existence (Sinsign)Here we can analyze Norway,
Trondheim, the Parrish, the refugees… all the singular material
facts involved. This concrete material context allows the growing
of a new idea, a new concept in FF produces a new need in FV… or
vice versa: a new intuitive feeling in a culture, due to a change
in the material context of FE, allows, eventually, the
construction of a new theoretical concept (but this last step is
not necessary conscious or explicit: we can operate cancer, but we
don’t know yet what is really is).
1. Form of Form (Qualisign)Here we can analyze all theoretical
knowledge related to the concepts of nativity, family,
representation, refugees, Christianity, etc etc Today and through
history. This knowledge informs FV and allows the new need and change.
b) Using the sequence of the Social Practice (Althusser)
2. Existence of Form (Icon) The first step is to have or imagine a
project, an idea of what will or could be the real fact of the
representation in EE, this is a theoretical social practice. This
aspect of the problem includes all images, models, pictures,
drawings, etc. taken or imagined about that refugees-nativity.
5. Existence of Existence (Index)This is the second step of an
economic social practice, this is the place of the real fact, the
“brute force” of the actualization of a nativity with
refugees-actors that will hit the eye and the brain of the
spectators in that specific town of Noway.
8.Existence of Value (Symbol) this is the third step, the
political social practice, The ‘fact’ in EE will produce a
concrete cognitive effect in that community that has, of course, a
political/strategical value for that people. This ‘meaning’ should
fulfill, and pacify, the necessity grown in FV… or make others
angry and furious… very probably some meanings and political
effects will ’appear’ that could not be imagined in EF.
c) Describing with the logical sequence (but all three aspects
work strongly together)
3. Value of Form (Rhema)All projects have an aesthetic aspect, and
this will be also an important aspect of the general strategy.
This a quali-quantitative values. The aesthetic values already
exist in that society considered in FV. Very probably, not
everybody will fit the general purpose…
6. Value of Existence (Dicisign)All ‘facts’ can be evaluated in
the context of the sign by means of quantitative values:
durability, economic achievability, practicability, etc. Trying to
change behaviors is a workable strategy.
9. Value of Value (Argument)This is a qualitative strategy related
to specific political tasks grown in the society considered in FV.
Everything starts from this strategic argument.
This political decision considered as a social necessity will
control and organize the whole ‘sign’.
Comments and criticism are welcomed
Happy New Year
Claudio
--
Prof. Dr. Arch. Claudio F. Guerri
Facultad de Arquitectura, Diseño y Urbanismo
Universidad de Buenos Aires
Home address: Gral. Lemos 270 (1427) Buenos Aires – Argentina
Telefax: (0054-11) 4553-4895 or 4553-7976
Cell phone: (0054-9-11) 6289-8123
E-mail: claudiogue...@gmail.com
Edwina Taborsky escribió el 28/12/2017 a las 12:35:
Peter - in my view, semiotics has nothing to say about such an
analogy - for that is all it is: a 'metaphoric'
analogy. Saussure's semiology - which has nothing to do with
Peircean semiotics - would be better suited, but even then, I
don't see the rationale for using such a conceptual
infrastructure [semiology] for it suggests, possibly, more to the
reality than exists. I consider it a simple metaphoric analogy -
and would even be cautious about implying some metaphysical
'holiness' to the ugly realities of war.
Edwina Taborsky
On Thu 28/12/17 2:33 PM , "Skagestad, Peter"
peter_skages...@uml.edu sent:
Listers,
I have a somewhat unusual question. My sister is writing an
Art History thesis on nativity scenes and their contemporary
relevance. An example is one at a street mission in
Trondheim, Norway, depicting the Holy Family as present-day
refugees from the Middle East. Now the question is what, if
anything, might semiotics have to say about such depiction?
The answer may be obvious, but it escapes me, at least for
the moment. Any suggestions?
Cheers,
Peter
--
*Prof. Dr. Arq. Claudio F. Guerri*
Facultad de Arquitectura, Diseño y Urbanismo
Universidad de Buenos Aires
Domicilio particular: Gral. Lemos 270
1427 BUENOS AIRES
Telefax: (011) 4553-7976/4895
Celular: (011) 15-6289-8123
E-mail: claudiogue...@gmail.com <mailto:claudiogue...@fibertel.com.ar>
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