John, List: JFS: As words, there is no logical difference between the words 'mark' and 'tone' as a term for a possible mark.
Again, the key difference is between Peirce's *definition *of "mark" in Baldwin's dictionary and his *definition *of "tone"--as well as "tuone," "tinge," and "potisign"--in various other places. JFS: But some words, such as potisign are rather unusual and may even be considered ugly. They are certainly not memorable. Peirce famously *preferred *an ugly word for his version of pragmatism so that it would be "safe from kidnappers." If being memorable is a criterion, then "tone" is superior to "mark" due to its alliteration with "token" and "type"; as Gary said, someone suggested to him "that the three all starting with the letter 't' perhaps constituted a kind of mnemonic device." JFS: Jon made the claim that Peirce used the word 'tone' more often, mainly in obscure MSS. That is not a ringing endorsement. It is not a mere claim that I made, it is an indisputable fact--"tone" is the *only *word that Peirce used in multiple places and at multiple times between 1906 and 1908 for the possible counterpart of existent "token" and necessitant "type." It is also the *only *one that was published during his lifetime (CP 4.537, 1906)--the others appear in Logic Notebook entries and the December 1908 letters to Lady Welby, with "mark" and "potisign" found solely in the latter, although *she *subsequently endorsed "tone." As someone once said, "She had a solid intuitive way of explaining principles that he tended to explain in ways that were more abstract and difficult to understand. Her influence enabled him to find simpler and more convincing explanations for his abstract ideas" ( https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/arc/peirce-l/2024-02/msg00096.html). JFS: That is not a scientific survey, but I could not find a single non-Peircean scholar who would even consider the word 'tone'. If anybody else has any further evidence (or just a personal preference) one way or the other, please let us know. Gary already provided anecdotal evidence to the contrary and expressed his personal preference for "tone." As always, my own priority is accurately understanding, helpfully explaining, and fruitfully building on *Peirce's *views by carefully studying and adhering to *his *words. Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 6:10 PM John F Sowa <s...@bestweb.net> wrote: > Gary, Jon, List, > > My note crossed in the mail with Gary's. I responded to the previous > notes by Jon and Gary (q.v.). > > My conclusion: As words, there is no logical difference between the words > 'mark' and 'tone' as a term for a possible mark. In fact, any word pulled > out of thin air could be chosen as a term for a possible mark. But some > words, such as potisign are rather unusual and may even be considered ugly. > They are certainly not memorable. > > Peirce at one point suggested the word 'mark' as a word for 'possible > mark'. That shows he was not fully convinced that 'tone' was the best word > for the future. Jon made the claim that Peirce used the word 'tone' more > often, mainly in obscure MSS. That is not a ringing endorsement. > > But we must remember that Tony Jappy also chose the word 'mark' for the > triad (mark token type). And he has devoted years of research to the > issues. As I pointed out, authorities are not infallible, but they are > more likely to be authorities than T. C. Mits (The Common Man in the > street). > > And I myself have been cited as an authority for quite a few issues in > logic, including Peirce's logic. See https://jfsowa.com/pubs/ for > publications. There are even more lecture slides. (Copies upon request.) > > But the ultimate judges for the vocabulary are the speakers of the > future. The overwhelming majority of knowledgeable logicians, linguists, > and philosophers who know the pair (token type) but not the first term, > find mark far more congenial and memorable than tone. I discovered that > point while talking to them. That is not a scientific survey, but I could > not find a single non-Peircean scholar who would even consider the word > 'tone'. > > If anybody else has any further evidence (or just a personal preference) > one way or the other, please let us know. > > John > > ------------------------------ > *From*: "Gary Richmond" <gary.richm...@gmail.com> > List, > > While at first I was sceptical of Jon's keeping this discussion going as > it has continued for some time now, yet this most recent post of his > reminded me that the principal issue being considered has *not *been resolved > unless you want to accept John's word that it has been and, by the way, > completely along the lines of *his* analysis. In other words, the 'tone' > v. 'mark' question has been settled *because* John says it has and, so, > there's no need for further discussion. > > I have followed this exchange very closely and find that Jon's > argumentation is bolstered by textual and other support. For example, > contra John, he has repeatedly demonstrated -- again, with more than > sufficient textual support - that any use of 'mark' consistent with > Peirce's Baldwin Dictionary definition is contrary to Peirce's discussion > of 'tone' (and related terms, such as. 'potisign'). For 'mark' is viewed by > Peirce as a kind of *term* and, so, decidedly *not *a *possible sign*. > Indeed, the very image that comes to my mind for 'mark' is always an > *existential* one, say a mark on a blackboard, or a beauty mark. > > Conversely, as Jon has repeatedly shown, all of Peirce's definitions of a > *possible > sign* include the idea that its being is a significant "quality of > feeling," a "Vague Quality," a sign that while "merely possible, [is] felt > to be positively possible." > > John says that when he uses 'mark' as having Peirce's meaning of a "Vague > Quality" that his listeners, typically *not* schooled in Peircean > thought, "find it quite congenial" and, so he uses it in all his talks and > written work. I can only say that that has not been my experience over the > years. For example, earlier this year I gave an invited talk at a session > of the George Santayana Society at the Eastern APA on the trichotomic > structure of Peirce's Classification of the Sciences where I found that in > discussing tone, token, type that my interlocutors -- almost none of whom > were familiar with Peirce's semeiotic -- found 'tone' to be most genial > and, indeed, one suggested that the three all starting with the letter 't' > perhaps constituted a kind of mnemonic device. Well, be that as it may, > that notion is certainly trivial (pun intended). > > Again, it bears repeating that John's remark that, because Tony Jappy used > the term 'mark' rather than 'tone', he has adopted it is nothing but the > logical fallacy of an appeal to authority. I have had any number of > discussions with Peirceans over the past several years, none of whom have > faulted my use of 'tone' for that "merely possible" sign. Mark my words! > > Furthermore, I have found Jon more than willing to learn from his > disagreements with others on the List. For example, in several of his > papers he has expressed appreciation for the engagement with* several* > Peirce-L members with whom he has 'contended' on the List, including John. > > And despite John's claim that having read Jon's post prior to this most > recent one and finding "nothing new," Jon has clearly shown that he in fact > did provide, and "for the first time," a list of all the passages where > Peirce uses not only 'tone', but its variants (such as 'tuone' and > 'potisgin'). John, on the other hand, has kept repeating his opinions with > little textual support. > > > So I ask each member of this forum who has an interest in this topic to > honestly weigh the arguments presented by Jon and John and determine for > themself who has made the stronger case, John for 'mark' or Jon for 'tone'. > Perhaps then we can put the matter to rest (at least for a time). > > Best, > > Gary Richmond >
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