Edwina, Jon, List, ET: ". . . my only point was that I consider that JAS’s outline of this religious framework is NOT similar to that of Peirce."
I actually think that Jon is fairly on target regarding Peirce's own *religious* views which, I would suggest, can be seen at certain places to conflict with some other of his metaphysical statements. So I also tend to agree with you that there is in Peirce's semeiotic and metaphysical writings material that suggests other cosmological views including that God can be equated with a universal Mind directing the evolution of the cosmos. For example, while I would agree with Jon that Peirce did not explicitly equate God with Mind, some passages suggest that God can be understood as a form of universal/cosmic Mind. With the following snippets (some of which I believe are quite familiar to many Peirceans) I hope to begin to show this. I'll start with the* most unlikely* connection of God to universal Mind and conclude with perhaps the *most likely* one. While this may be stretching it a bit, even in Peirce's describing God as *Ens necessarium*, a rational order or Mind guiding the cosmos might be seen to apply. "God is a being of incomprehensible power and knowledge, and, what is more to the purpose, he is the living, self-conscious Necessary Being, whose essence lies in a triune nature" (CP 6.490). God is described as "self-conscious," which *might* be seen as associating God with Mind in the sense of an omniscient rational Being. In addition, note that "his essence lies in a *triune nature*." I think that perhaps that's the stronger suggestion here for it associates God's essence with the two other Persons of the Trinity, the first Person being wholly 'Three Persons is One'. This trichotomic point, and its connection to God's cosmological action within our universe would require at least an essay of its own. In any event, other brief quotes may together make a stronger case. Here Peirce equates the divine with the rational principle of 3ns that governs the universe: "The third mode of consciousness is Thought, or Mediation, which is characteristic of the Divine Spirit" (CP 6.452). This implies that the divine -- as Holy Spirit -- is essentially a form of cosmic thought or mediation, which could be interpreted as aligning God with universal Mind, with rationality itself through, perhaps, the third Person of the Trinity. But perhaps one gets closer to God as Mind in Peirce's discussion of *evolutionary love* (*Agape*). He describes the universe as directed by a rational, loving purpose, which he identifies with God. "The universe is an argument, to the effect that there is a God, and that *the universe is ruled by a conscious purpose, a mind*, and not by chance" (CP 6.490, emphasis added). This suggests to me that God *is *that guiding, purposeful Mind, that the universe is not some chance, mind-less mechanism, but is rather purposefully directed towards growth, evolution, and evolutionary love (I hope some other planet in the cosmos is doing a better job of the last mentioned than we are). "The law of mind is that ideas tend to spread continuously and to affect certain others which stand to them in a peculiar relation of affecting and being affected by them" (CP 1.615). Here, Peirce’s "law of mind" seems to be a metaphor for the rational order of the universe, implying that God operates *as the Mind behind these laws*, sustaining and guiding the cosmos. And here he identifies God directly with thought and reason. "The conception of God is that of a Being of whom all that happens is but the development of an idea in His mind" (CP 6.102). That "single idea" I take to be this universe seen as a vast Sign. In this passage, Peirce suggests that the entire unfolding of the universe is essentially an expression of divine thought. One might ask a theist: What serves to realize that unfolding but the Power of God through the Trinity? Finally, in this snippet Peirce describes God as the living principle (Mind) that evolves through the universe. "The universe . . . is not a mere mechanism, but is, so to speak, a living process, and is evolving toward an ultimate state of ideal perfection. *The divine mind is immanent in the universe*, guiding it toward that end" (CP 6.490, emphasis added). This passage states that God's *a universal Mind that is immanent within the cosmos*, actively guiding its evolution. In at least some of these snippets one can see what I might call Peirce's more *nuanced* view of God as a form of cosmic Mind, that living rationality which permeates, sustains, and directs the universe, and aligning with his broader metaphysical and semiotic framework. Peirce thought that the proof of God's Reality would be a great boon to mankind (I agree), and while, as Jon correctly noted, the panentheistic idea had been introduced long before he was working, yet is quite likely that the majority of people he came in contact with, say in the churches he attended, knew nothing of it (even today few do). So he took what might be seen as the reasonable path then and argued from a more traditional theistic position as likely to carry more weight in his milieu towards the goal of proving the Truth of Religion. In saying that I am not suggesting that he necessarily would have come to embrace panentheism, but it is a possibility since, as some have seen suggestions of that viewpoint in his religious metaphysics. Be that as it may, even should humanity survive climate disaster, wars, and global epidemics, it will take a v*ery long time *to arrive at a scientific religion (all the attempts that I mentioned in my earlier post which took a stab at it failed). Meanwhile, panentheism seems to me to be an excellent candidate 'on the way' to that desideratum, but *only* if one can equate God with universal Mind. Best, Gary R On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 9:41 AM Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> wrote: > Gary R, List > > I’ll only make this one post - since I’m not going to get into a religious > discussion. ButI think that your outline of a panentheism is closer to > that outlined by Peirce’s semiosis - than Jon’s classical theism. > > That is - I reject ,as do you, the notion of a discrete separate external > Dynamic Object - external to the universe. That is semiosically- illogical, > since the DO only becomes a DO within a semiosic interaction. > > Second - I reject the interpretation of ’the whole universe is a sign’ to > mean that whole universe is merely the mediate term, the > representamen.Again, semiotically, that’sillogical. The triad is > irreducible and a reprsentamen does not ‘exist’ or function on its own. > Peirce was very explicit about this. > > Third -hhmm..Could your notion of Jesus be the Immediate Object? > > That’s all I’ll say - my only point was that I consider that JAS’s outline > of this religious framework is NOT similar to that of Peirce. > > Edwina > > On Oct 1, 2024, at 8:12 PM, Gary Richmond <[email protected]> wrote: > > List, > > I think that there is a different, indeed a panentheistic interpretation > of this passage which Jon recently commented on. > > CSP: Pragmaticism consists in recognizing all concepts as anthropomorphic; > and the more causal a concept is the more anthropomorphic must the > pragmaticist apprehend it. *As his common sense prevents him from > identifying himself with his body, so he will not think of God as immanent > in the universe*, though he must think that *God's fulfillment of His > Being in some vague sense required the Creation*. [. . .] (Bold and > Italic/Bold emphasis added by GR). > > JAS: This seems to be a shorter and less detailed draft of what I quoted > previously--affirming the anthropomorphism of all concepts, *rejecting > the immanence of God*, and describing scientific inquiry as worship, even > for professing unbelievers. [Emphasis added by GR]. > > I do not interpret the passage quoted from Jon's longer quotation as a > rejection of the immanence of God. As I see it, while, yes, a person > doesn't *identify* himself with his body, yet the body truly exists, and > is *real*, and not only for that person. No one denies that he has a > body; further, the holistic notion of a *bodymind* was rather highly > developed in the 20th century to represent the profound interpenetration of > the two in a normal human being. Similarly, the body of God can -- at least > in the panentheism which I've been outlining -- be seen as the *Body of > Christ*, perhaps that very spiritual body which Christians in taking > communion. I am not suggesting that this is Peirce's view, but I think an > argument can be made for it which, further developed, might be appealing > beyond Christianity. > > Jon wrote: "T]he entire universe as *one* immense sign still requires an > *overall *dynamical object that is external to it, independent of it, and > unaffected by it." > > I agree with the first part of this statement, but I disagree with the > second part of it while acknowledging that it may in fact be Peirce's > position. > > However, before arguing further, I will note that with which I *do agree* > in Jon's explication of Peirce's cosmology. Firstly, there seems little > doubt that in Peirce's semeiotic cosmology that the universe can indeed be > considered "one vast sign" engaged in an ongoing process of semiosis*, *that > is, interpretation and meaning making, and all that we call 'evolutional'. > Further, I agree that everything in the universe -- including matter (its > subatomic underpinnings is a separate issue as I see it), ideas, and > relations -- *everything* *that can develop or evolve* participates in > the triadic relationship between the *sign*, its *object*, and its t > *interpretant*. > > However, in considering whether the dynamic Object of the universe is > outside the continuity of the semiosis of our evolving cosmos, I interpret > the implications of Peirce's synechism in a way different from Jon's. > > My metaphysical/semiotic perspective suggests that *God*, if considered > the ultimate dynamic Object of the universe, *cannot* be entirely > separate from it, rather can be seen to be both the *Creator* and the > *immanent* principle (*Christ*, from a Cosmic Christian perspective), God > guiding the evolutionary development of the cosmos through the second and > third Persons of the Trinity. This principle (along with much of Peirce's > semeiotic) is the basis for my panentheistic view (although, as I > previously suggested, a designation other than 'Christic' will need to > found or created to allow for other, including possible future viewpoints > (hopefully including scientific ones with their own developing metaphysical > symbol systems). I have mentioned before that I too look for a > rapprochement of science and religion as, of course, did others, including > Peirce, Dewey, Teilhard de Chardin, Whitehead, etc. > > So, as I see it, and from a standpoint which clearly diverges from > Peirce's and Jon's, God is *not* a distant, fixed, changeless Object > outside the semiotic 'system', but an active participant in the process of > semiosis involved in the unfolding of the universe as the *ultimate* > Interpretant > and source of purpose, meaning, and teleology. Who other than the > Tripartite God could be *fully revealed* in that ideal Final > Interpretant? How could He who *is* *Ens Necessarium* *not* be involved > in *that* Revelation? (From my panentheistic standpoint my guess is that > something like the entire Trinity will be revealed, while its mathematical > and logical expression will require the three Peircean categories along the > way. But that's just a guess.) > > In conclusion, my conception of God, while informed by semeiotic, is > clearly not fully in agreement with Peirce's religious metaphysics. For > *panentheistic > Christianity *as I conceive of it, God both transcends. the universe but > is simultaneously present within His Creation through the Mystical Body of > Christ in communion with the Father through the Holy Spirit (how this might > be translated into universal religious and/or scientific terminology, I at > present have no idea -- although certain Tibetan tantras and a few other > ancient sources offer a hint). > > Such a view, I believe, reflects a kind of *pantheistic objective realism* in > which *all* of Reality itself has a purposeful and meaningful structure > involving a kind of divine act of interpretation in the sense that God is > simultaneously the origin of the sign process, the ground of being (*Ens > Necessarium), *and who with the Son and the Spirit sustain and evolve the > universe, ultimately giving final coherence to the Cosmos as a meaningful > totality (towards the Ultimate Interpretant). > > I hope it goes without saying that *I am a theist* of a peculiar stripe, > namely, a panentheist with a trichotomic mindset. I would of course be > especially eager to discuss these ideas with any List members interested in > pursuing this view of the possibility of a scientific religion having its > point of departure in panentheism. > > Best, > > Gary R > > > > On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 2:58 PM Jon Alan Schmidt <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> List: >> >> Just for the record, here are some additional remarks about God in R 288. >> >> CSP: Could I be assured that other men candidly and deliberately doubt >> any proposition which I had regarded as indubitable, that fact would >> inevitably cause me to doubt it too. I ought not, however, lightly to admit >> that they do so doubt a proposition which the most thorough criticism has >> left quite indubitable by myself; for there are other states of mind that >> can easily be mistaken for doubt. Good examples are not easily found, since >> the Critical Common Sensist in truth doubts more than most men, including >> critics. The belief in God will illustrate what is meant. It is very >> commonly rejected because the disbelievers do not consider the proposition >> in its vague irresistible sense, but find objections to too precided >> senses. Many do believe but reject the word in favor of the Unknowable, or >> something of the sort. Some have been persuaded they ought not to believe, >> yet do believe, some [illegible] consciously, others unconsciously. About >> all the theologians and the old Scotch philosophers with them committed the >> same mistake of too much preciding the original beliefs. (R >> 288:40-41[79-80[) >> >> >> CSP: Questioner D. But am I to be told that I mean nothing by God but the >> creator? >> *Pragmaticist*. No, I do not say that. The concept of God,--if concept >> be the word,--is necessarily vague in the extreme. Unless, like some >> pragmatists, we are to satisfy ourselves with a finite God, as I >> emphatically cannot, or with some other low and unworthy conception, we >> cannot avoid contradictions. I do not see that we can mean anything by the >> being of God, but a being that is indefinite. But in those respects in >> which a concept is vague and therefore liable to be self-contradictory, it >> plainly cannot be pragmaticistic meaning, and therefore should not be >> considered as intellectual. Possibly it would do to say that it is a >> rational emotion; but it really seems to belong to no recognized type of >> representation. (R 288:79-80[157&159]) >> >> >> In both these passages, Peirce again emphasizes the *vagueness *of the >> concept of God. In the first one, he calls it "irresistible" and suggests >> that people who claim to disbelieve in God are really just objecting to >> *precise >> *definitions. In the second one, he denies that God is finite, as he >> does in several other texts. >> >> CSP: Pragmaticism consists in recognizing all concepts as >> anthropomorphic; and the more causal a concept is the more anthropomorphic >> must the pragmaticist apprehend it. As his common sense prevents him from >> identifying himself with his body, so he will not think of God as immanent >> in the universe, though he must think that God's fulfillment of His Being >> in some vague sense required the Creation. The pursuit of pure heuretic >> science seems to him the highest mode of worship, and fully as much so in a >> Häckel, a Leidy, or a Laplace as in a Kelvin or an Asa Gray or a Benjamin >> Peirce, consciousness being no more than the skin of the mind. (R >> 288:82[161]) >> >> >> This seems to be a shorter and less detailed draft of what I quoted >> previously--affirming the anthropomorphism of all concepts, rejecting the >> immanence of God, and describing scientific inquiry as worship, even for >> professing unbelievers. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jon >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 5:07 PM Jon Alan Schmidt < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> List: >>> >>> An aspect of Peirce's writings that presents both challenges and >>> opportunities for scholars of his thought is the fact that so many of his >>> texts remain unpublished. Yesterday, I came across a passage in one such >>> manuscript that is highly relevant to our recent discussions about how God >>> as *Ens necessarium* fulfills the logical requirement for a rational >>> explanation of the co-realty of the three universes. It is in one of the >>> drafts for his series of articles on pragmaticism in *The Monist*. >>> >>> CSP: Unless we were to think reason in general futile, which neither you >>> reader nor I can, we have the problem before us to explain the sum total of >>> the real, however vaguely. To explain anything is to show it to be a >>> necessary consequence. To say that the total real is a consequence of utter >>> nothing without substance or appearance is absurd. The only alternative is >>> to suppose a necessary something whose mode of being transcends reality. >>> This is vague enough. 'Necessary being' is the equivalent of 'something,' >>> since nothing is self-contradictory and impossible. But a necessary being >>> adequate to account for the sum total of reality, however inscrutable, is >>> not in all respects entirely vague. >>> The exact logician with his bare mathematical apparatus finds it >>> impossible to give any thoroughgoing formal analysis of thought without >>> regarding it as the product of a thinking activity; and he thus sees more >>> clearly than another man, perhaps, the ineluctability of the conception of >>> creative thought. An immanent God will not answer the purpose, although it >>> would seem that creation must in some vague sense be needed for the >>> fulfillment of His being. But our idea of Him and of the mode of His being >>> must remain vague in the extreme (though not utterly so); and as vague, >>> self-contradictory. But pragmaticism is inseparable from the doctrine that >>> all human thought and meaning must carry the anthropomorphic stamp, >>> disguise it as you will. In proportion as an object is more >>> incomprehensible we are compelled more markedly to resort to human ideals, >>> social activities and passional elements to make anything out of it. If I >>> allowed myself to continue, I fear I should stump myself upon a theological >>> argument, while my only purpose is to show that pragmaticism is favorable >>> to religion. >>> I will conclude, then, with the opinion that for the pragmaticistic >>> logician, nature (including the [illegible] works of men) is the symbol of >>> God to Humanity, and pure heuretic science makes it the prayer book of an >>> elevating worship. (R 288:91-92[178-181], 1905) >>> >>> >>> This confirms what I have been suggesting for years--Peirce's statement >>> in CP 6.490 (1908) that "the three universes must actually be absolutely >>> necessary results of a state of utter nothingness" is part of a *reductio >>> ad absurdum*. As he states plainly here, any claim that three-category >>> reality somehow came into being on its own, as "a necessary consequence ... >>> of utter nothing ... is absurd" because "nothing is self-contradictory and >>> impossible." Of course, that this was his position should have been >>> indisputable already from what he wrote seven years earlier--"Now the >>> question arises, what necessarily resulted from that [initial] state of >>> things? But the only sane answer is that where freedom was boundless >>> nothing in particular necessarily resulted. ... I say that nothing >>> *necessarily >>> *resulted from the Nothing of boundless freedom" (CP 6.218-219, 1898). >>> >>> Moreover, Peirce again explicitly rejects "an immanent God," but this >>> time he also explicitly affirms that "a necessary something ... transcends >>> reality," with the caveat that "creation must in some vague sense be needed >>> for the fulfillment of His being." As he says elsewhere, "I think we must >>> regard Creative Activity as an inseparable attribute of God" (CP 6.506, c. >>> 1906). Nevertheless, he uses the word "vaguely" or "vague" six different >>> times in this passage, consistent with his statements elsewhere that "'God' >>> is a vernacular word and, like all such words, but more than almost any, is >>> *vague*" (CP 6.494, c. 1906); and that "we must not predicate any >>> Attribute of God otherwise than vaguely and figuratively, since God, though >>> in a sense essentially intelligible, is nevertheless essentially >>> incomprehensible" (SWS:283, 1909). >>> >>> Finally, Peirce makes it clear that he is not interested in offering "a >>> theological argument," wishing only "to show that pragmaticism is favorable >>> to religion" because it must "resort to human ideals, social activities and >>> passional elements to make anything out of" God as an incomprehensible >>> object. He concludes by reiterating that the entire universe is one immense >>> sign, "the symbol of God to Humanity," and that engaging in "pure heuretic >>> science" is a form of worship. After all, "if contemplation and study of >>> the physico-psychical universe can imbue a man with principles of conduct >>> analogous to the influence of a great man's works or conversation, then >>> that analogue of a mind--for it is impossible to say that *any *human >>> attribute is *literally *applicable--is what he [the pragmaticist] >>> means by 'God'" (CP 6.502, c. 1906). >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA >>> Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian >>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt >>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt> / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt >>> >> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >> ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at >> https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at >> https://www.cspeirce.com . 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