> once you get the SVG, you're home free in terms of making high quality
print

I know that David and I have discussed this capability for Prima. He has
been busy with $work lately. At least knowing that he believes that "in
concept" that should be possible is nice.

Cheers,

Joel

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:01 AM, Craig DeForest
<[email protected]>wrote:

> I put a lot of energy into making the Gnuplot stuff work, because it
> produces beautiful publication-quality output in both 2-D and 3-D and is
> reasonably fast.  I see the current round of grousing as a Good Thing,
> shaking out the module as people try it out.  There are some architectural
> worries on Microsoft Windows since it is not POSIX, but I don't see them as
> show-stoppers - interprocess control is universal, and I am positive the
> low-level communication with gnuplot can be made more robust on that
> platform. I do not see gnuplot succumbing to bit rot in the near future -
> it has a vibrant development community and is being actively supported for
> multiple major platforms with far more users than PDL.
>
> The main issues with gnuplot are that is not optimized for interactive
> work, and that the API is a bit ... crufty.  Those things are OK for most
> stuff, in part because plotting is very fast for most types of plot, but
> there are two large gaps I see, that are not likely to go away soon:
>
>  * The architecture slows down large image display.  This makes it awkward
> to, e.g., perform interactive markup on large images.  Up to about 800x800
> is okay on my macbook pro, but 4000x4000 floating point images take around
> 10s to render, and the architecture forces a full re-render after each new
> point is rendered to the screen by, e.g., read_polygon().  The slowness
> arises partly because Gnuplot hands the image around a lot internally and
> partly because the image has to go through a pipe from PDL to Gnuplot each
> time.
>
> * It is likely to remain awkward to incorporate a gnuplot widget into
> other types of window - at least, without someone diving in and writing a
> new backend device driver for gnuplot itself.
>
> The API concerns stem partly from Gnuplot having a long legacy and partly
> from the fact that plotting itself is a complex endeavor - supporting all
> the wizzy things that gnuplot does requires a certain amount of cruftiness
> and wooliness to the control interface - every plotting package I have
> studied (IDL, Mongo, PGPLOT, Vplot, and some of Plplot) ends up pretty
> wooly in the course of becoming versatile.
>
> I see Prima as a very nice step in the direction of interactive work,
> potentially enabling a graphical PDL and certainly enabling closer
> interaction with graphical data.  There is a lot of architectural beauty in
> it, although it does not yet fulfill my needs as an academic user - it is
> more of a toolkit than a high level plotting package.  (To be fair, this
> seems to be the state of Plplot too... at least the last time I dug into it
> in anythibg resembling detail...).
>
> I see Gnuplot and Prima both as viable directions forward.  I suggest
> moving toward Gnuplot as a primary plotting interface, and am willing to
> support frequent releases of it as folks begin reporting desires and/or
> warts that are invisible to me.  I also suggest maintaining Prima as a
> major alternate package with prominent advertisement, in part because its
> tight integation with Perl and PDL give it a lot of promise for future
> interactive tools.
>
> I would like to see us keep legacy support for PGPLOT and Plplot, so that
> people like Karl (or even me) can continue runnng old code - but I do not
> think it is productive to feature those packages prominently in, e.g., the
> examples and tutorial literature.
>
>
> (mobile)
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2013, at 1:27 AM, Matthew Kenworthy <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> i'm going to be an instigator again and point out that pgplot, plplot,
>> and gnuplot are all ~20 year old pieces of legacy software.  at least
>> gnuplot is actively maintained and evolving, but pgplot has hardly been
>> touched in ~10 years.  i've tried plplot a few times, but always ended up
>> throwing up my hands after a short while.  maintaining dependencies with
>> packages like these will always be a headache and will hold back adoption
>> and evolution of PDL.  note that i haven't looking into prima at all,
>> however.
>>
>>
> 20 years old doesn't mean they're crap - but your point about legacy
> software is a good one.
>
> tying back into the previous discussion about notebook-type interfaces
>> like what ipython has i'd like to point out the existenceit of
>> http://d3js.org/.  ipython notebooks are great, but using matplotlib
>> graphics within a browser is rather limiting.  integrating something like
>> D3 opens up a lot more flexibility and capability.  a browser-based PDL
>> shell that used D3 for plotting could be pretty kick butt....
>>
>>
> I use plotting packages for two things - making production quality figures
> where I want fine grained control, and 'rough and ready' plots that allow
> me to hack at data on the command line, like the python notebooks.
>
> d3js looks *beautiful* for interactive data, but probably a pain in the
> ass for reproducible PDF output. What do you use for paper output?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> --
> Matthew Kenworthy / Assistant Professor / Leiden Observatory
> Niels Bohrweg 2 (#463) / P.O. Box 9513 / 2300 RA Leiden / NL
>
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