Hi Eliot, On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Tudor Girba <tu...@tudorgirba.com>wrote: > >> Hi Eliot, >> >> I know we went through it, and we still disagree :). I have provided >> detailed arguments and I have seen no others that did refute mine. >> > > OK, I'll bite :-). Point me to the arguments and I'll have a go at > refutation. > Besides the points laid out in the discussions on this mailing list, I provided an initial argument here: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo > But my statement that Pharo is a Smalltalk boils own to the facts that > Smalltalk has always evolved > I agree on that. There is a point of view from which one could say that Pharo is Smalltalk by seeing Smalltalk as a movement, rather than specific implementation. Unfortunately, everyone else thinks of Smalltalk as a specific language, or set of languages with specific environments that typically look old enough to not be relevant anymore. (Multiple inheritance was a discarded experiment that is in Smalltalk-80 > for example, Tweak contains a sort-of slot idea, as another) and that > Pharo's evolutions are no different to other evolutions that have enriched > Smalltalk but not redefined it, and that one way to tell is to see if the > VM or instruction set needs to be radically different to implement the > system efficiently. So there's nothing un-Smalltalk about traits, or slots > or a modular compiler. > This is where our points diverge significantly. Just because Closure or JRuby run on a Java VM does not make them Java. They are their own languages. Similarly, just because Newspeak runs pretty much the same VM as Squeak or Pharo does not make it a Smalltalk either (according to the webpage it is a new programming language in the tradition of Self and Smalltalk). Things that want to have an identity should be allowed to get it as long as the due credits are acknowledged. Saying that there is nothing un-Smalltalk about slots, or compiler or traits and all sorts of other things is not incorrect, but saying that the same things are not defined by Smalltalk is not incorrect either. The point of view matters. As for deciding how much of difference should there be until we are not to be associated with the original, I would leave that to lawyers that have to do it. I will focus on trying to market a fantastic environment and community. But, there is another point, too. "Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired" is not just factual but also a statement of intention. We do not want to necessarily be Smalltalk. If the future proves that some decisions made in Smalltalk are good we will make them, too. Otherwise we will take other routes. That's a promise :) I am certainly open to talking about it. I have no intention of lying or >> hiding. I am rather proud to be part of this community and to do my bit of >> contributing. >> > > Us both. > > >> But, please understand that my main concern is getting Pharo adopted >> which is what other Smalltalk rooted systems did not really manage until >> now. There are many ways to say the same thing. Some people will resonate >> with some messages, and some others will pick holes in them. I will focus >> on increasing the first set of people while preserving the semantics I >> believe in. >> > > Quite. Agreed. > > Great :) Doru > >> Doru >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:38 PM, Eliot Miranda >> <eliot.mira...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tudor Girba <tu...@tudorgirba.com>wrote: >>> >>>> That is why we talk about Pharo as a cool, modern environment and >>>> language that is Smalltalk-inspired. >>>> >>> >>> We went through this a few months ago. Pharo isn't inspired by >>> Smalltalk; it /is/ a Smalltalk. Trying to be mealy-mouthed about it and >>> claiming inspiration, rather than proudly declaring its a Smalltalk is IMO >>> as bad as apologizing for it being dead. >>> >>> >>>> We do not need to apologize because Pharo was never dead :). >>>> >>> >>> We don't need to avoid the S word either... >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Norbert Hartl <norb...@hartl.name>wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 28.04.2014 um 18:58 schrieb kilon alios <kilon.al...@gmail.com>: >>>>> >>>>> very cool presentation. Definitely you need to add this to the new >>>>> website. >>>>> >>>>> Question : Why in every presentation we have to apologise why >>>>> smalltalk is dead / extinct ? >>>>> >>>>> As a newcomer to Smalltalk I find it quite annoying. Its not as if I >>>>> came to Smalltalk without knowing that is not popular. The vast majority >>>>> of >>>>> languages out there are so more unpopular than Smalltalk, yet they don't >>>>> have this "sorry that I am dead" mentality to them. >>>>> >>>>> +1 >>>>> >>>>> Well said. >>>>> >>>>> Norbert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.den...@inria.fr >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> … more a Smalltalk one using Pharo: >>>>>> >>>>>> MountainWest RubyConf 2014 >>>>>> >>>>>> Noel Rappin: "But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk” >>>>>> >>>>>> Smalltalk has mystique. We talk about it more than we use it. It >>>>>> seems like it should be so similar to Ruby. It has similar >>>>>> Object-Oriented >>>>>> structures, it even has blocks. But everything is so slightly different, >>>>>> from the programming environment, to the 1-based arrays, to the simple >>>>>> syntax. Using Smalltalk will make you look at familiar constructs with >>>>>> new >>>>>> eyes. We’ll show you how to get started on Smalltalk, and walk through >>>>>> some >>>>>> sample code. Live coding may be involved. You’ll never look at objects >>>>>> the >>>>>> same way again. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.confreaks.com/videos/3284-mwrc-but-really-you-should-learn-smalltalk >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> best, >>> Eliot >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >> > > > > -- > best, > Eliot > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
