Let me reply to this as it is my quote you are quoting.
On 04/30/2014 03:34 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
I was reading this thread and watching... Sean arguing... that Pharo is NOT
Smalltalk
No!!!!!!!! As I and Esteban (at least, maybe others) have repeated, *we are
NOT saying that Pharo is not Smalltalk*.
I said that because you joined in with Doru who was stating firmly that
Pharo is not Smalltalk and gave a link to his post.
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
Where he explicitly states,
""" Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired. """
Which makes Pharo is Smalltalk and Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired as
opposing each other.
Doru is explicit and insistent on this point.
So by association, you engaged after his message in the Pharo is
Smalltalk Inspired argument.
That is how I arrived at associating you with the claim that Pharo is
not Smalltalk.
Right or wrong that is how I included you in that aspect of the discussion.
Either we're not explaining ourselves well or (more likely IMHO) everyone is
so emotional over this (and it's a good thing that we care that much) that
they're not actually reading what we're saying.
How can you read either
http://forum.world.st/Pharo-is-Smalltalk-and-Not-td4757342.html or my two
main points at
http://forum.world.st/a-Pharo-talk-from-a-ruby-conference-tp4756805p4756995.html
and say that I'm saying that?!
I think there is a middle ground where everyone gets what they want. I've
tried to express it in the first link above. Please - I love differences and
discussion, but if you're going to react, react /specifically/ to what I
said (e.g. the two points I made in the second link), because right now, you
are only arguing with yourself ;)
Now in your above discussion.
You state that Smalltalk = Smalltalk-80 to 99.9% of the developers out
there.
I don't agree. I would be brazen enough to state that a very high
percent of developers out there know almost nothing about Smalltalk. I
would wager a high percent weren't even born when Smalltalk-80 came out.
You might be one for all I know. I would also wager that most developers
don't know there is a Smalltalk-80. I imagine that there is more
ignorance than knowledge about Smalltalk.
Those who have heard of Smalltalk have probably heard of Smalltalk from
someone who doesn't use Smalltalk for whatever reason. And there are
many reasons, and many are valid. So what they hear is reasons not to
use Smalltalk or why people in their community who have a cursory
Smalltalk experience state as their reasons for not using Smalltalk.
I just don't happen to believe that we should allow people who don't use
Smalltalk to define it. They can express their opinion, and we should
listen. That which is valid learn, that which is not nicely engage in
education and communication. They may still choose not to use Pharo or
Smalltalk, but hopefully they won't engage in disinformation.
In Pharo's four years since 1.0 Pharo has changed much. So Pharo has to
deal with its own baggage. There are many who used Pharo 1 or 2. They
encountered whatever challenges inherent in those versions and left
disappointed. We will have to rebuild Pharo's image to those people. We
will have to answer for Pharo's history. Unless we are to say, we are
targeting our marketing to only those people who have never used any
dialect of Smalltalk. But this Smalltalk-Inspired vs. Smalltalk is a
very leaky marketing plan. As soon as anybody not in on the game
declares, Pharo is a Smalltalk, the game is over. We then have to have
an answer for why we are a modern Smalltalk and how we answer our past
failures.
However, there are many who have a modest understanding of Smalltalk.
For example, why does Noel Rappin teach that You Should Learn Smalltalk,
but does not teach that You Should Use Smalltalk? What are his reasons
for not using Pharo?
For the people who get Smalltalk, Pharo, why do they not use it? Those
are answers we need so that we can make valuable decisions on providing
a story that is attractive to both those who have used Pharo/Smalltalk
and those who have not.
We need to increase the value proposition so that we can increase people
who say, "In order to provide bread, I program in X, but in my spare
time projects I use Pharo". As that group increases I believe we will
see an increase in business use of Pharo. And people will then be able
to make a living programming in Pharo.
Plays well with others is still a big issue. It is the one I struggle
with. Interfacing a C library and its issues. I love Pharo/Smalltalk and
I struggle sometimes with whether or not I will get to use it. Because
my C is lacking. I wrote the NativeBoost wrapper around the library. But
it crashes. But the intersection of those who have knowledge in this
area is small. And those who have time to deal with other peoples issues
is even fewer. So I am spending my time studying C hoping that at some
point the intersection of my knowledge of C is sufficient to solve my
problem with C and Pharo.
Most people would have simply just used Python or Lua and be done with
it. I just don't prefer to live in Python or Lua. If I can provide at
all a way to get to where I can use Pharo.
My apologies for ranting in this thread. As you stated it is a
passionate thing.
Jimmie
