On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:17 AM, J. Vuletich (mail lists) < juanli...@jvuletich.org> wrote:
> Hi Folks, > > (below) > > > Quoting Ben Coman <b...@openinworld.com>: > > On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Ben Coman <b...@openinworld.com> wrote: >>> >>> From my limited experience bug hunting, calling #changed: from a thread >>>> other than the UI thread is a source of evil. There are too many >>>> assumptions throughout the system that the UI is single threaded. Can >>>> anyone advise me that is not a proper belief? >>>> >>>> Then that implies that a Transcript implementation where #nextPut: >>>> direct >>>> calls #changed: >>>> is not appropriate for use with multi-threaded applications. In Pharo, >>>> #changed: is only called from #stepGlobal, which is called from >>>> doOneCycle:. (This came about as a last minute bug fix before Pharo 3 >>>> release and maybe could use some cleanup. >>>> >>>> Separating the UI from Transcript into its own viewer might be a good >>>> idea, but actually it would not solve Stef's case since his code would >>>> still be running in the UI thread -- unless the viewer ran in another >>>> thread, which would have its own complexities. >>>> >>>> I think the point about efficiency is significant. The following >>>> example... >>>> Time millisecondsToRun: [ 1000 timesRepeat: [ Transcript show: 'x' >>>> ] ] >>>> on Squeak 4.5 --> 12749ms >>>> on Pharo 50029 --> 2ms >>>> >>>> This better performance helped me a lot trying to understand the high >>>> priority timerEventLoop being able to indiscriminately scatter >>>> Transcript >>>> tracing through that code. I believe its also probably beneficial for >>>> working with externally triggered semaphores and timing sensitive race >>>> conditions. >>>> >>>> So we have two mutually exclusive cases: >>>> * better interactivity, poorer system performance >>>> * faster system performance, worse interactivity >>>> >>>> Which of these is broken depends on your viewpoint. >>>> >>>> >>> Something that runs fast but is incorrect is still incorrect. The fact >>> that the transcript doesn't output until a world step is possible is a >>> bug. It forces programs that use the transcript to be rewritten in order >>> to see transcript output. >>> >>> >> As a point of comparison for correctness, for the following... >> >> Transcript clear. >> [ $a asciiValue to: $z asciiValue do: [ :c | >> [ 1 to: 9 do: [ :i | Transcript show: c asCharacter printString , i >> printString , ' ' ] ] forkAt: 40 >> ]. >> ] forkAt: 41 >> >> Squeak 4.5 gives... >> $a1 $a2 $a3 $a4 $a5 $a6 $a7 $a8 $a9 $b1 $b2 $b3 $b4 $b5 $b5 $c1 $c2 $c3 >> $c4 >> $c5 $c6 $c7 $c8 $c9 $d1 $d2 $d3 $d4 $d5 $d6 $d7 $d8 $d9 $d9 $e2 $g2 $h2 >> $h2 >> $i2 $k2 $k2 $l2 $n2 $n2 $o2 $o2 $r2 $s2 $t2 $u2 $u2 $v2 $x2 $y2 $z2 $z2 >> $b7 >> $f3 $e3 $e3 $g3 $j3 $h3 $i3 $k3 $k3 $m3 $n3 $p3 $p3 $q3 $o3 $s3 $t3 $t3 >> $u3 >> $v3 $x3 $y3 $z3 $b8 $f4 $e4 $e4 $g4 $h4 $i4 $k4 $l4 $m4 $m4 $n4 $r4 $q4 >> $o4 >> $o4 $s4 $w4 $u4 $u4 $v4 $y4 $y4 $z4 $z4 $f5 $j5 $j5 $g5 $i5 $k5 $l5 $l5 >> $m5 >> $m5 $n5 $q5 $o5 $s5 $s5 $t5 $u5 $u5 $x5 $y5 $z5 $f6 $f6 $h6 $h6 $g6 $g6 >> $k6 >> $p6 $m6 $r6 $r6 $n6 $o6 $s6 $s6 $w6 $u6 $x6 $x6 $e7 $f7 $j7 $h7 $h7 $i7 >> $l7 >> $l7 $k7 $m7 $m7 $q7 $n7 $n7 $o7 $t7 $w7 $w7 $u7 $v7 $x7 $z7 $z7 $e8 $e8 >> $h8 >> $g8 $i8 $i8 $l8 $k8 $k8 $m8 $q8 $n8 $n8 $s8 $t8 $w8 $y8 $y8 $u8 $x8 $z8 >> $f9 >> $f9 $e9 $h9 $h9 $g9 $p9 $p9 $k9 $r9 $r9 $m9 $n9 $n9 $o9 $t9 $t9 $w9 $v9 >> $u9 >> $u9 $z9 $x9 >> >> Pharo 50041 gives... >> $a1 $a2 $a3 $a4 $a5 $a6 $a7 $a8 $a9 $b1 $b2 $b3 $b4 $b5 $b6 $b7 $b8 $b9 >> $c1 >> $c2 $c3 $c4 $c5 $c6 $c7 $c8 $c9 $d1 $d2 $d3 $d4 $d5 $d6 $d7 $d8 $d9 $e1 >> $e2 >> $e3 $e4 $e5 $e6 $e7 $e8 $e9 $f1 $f2 $f3 $f4 $f5 $f6 $f7 $f8 $f9 $g1 $g2 >> $g3 >> $g4 $g5 $g6 $g7 $g8 $g9 $h1 $h2 $h3 $h4 $h5 $h6 $h7 $h8 $h9 $i1 $i2 $i3 >> $i4 >> $i5 $i6 $i7 $i8 $i9 $j1 $j2 $j3 $j4 $j5 $j6 $j7 $j8 $j9 $k1 $k2 $k3 $k4 >> $k5 >> $k6 $k7 $k8 $k9 $l1 $l2 $l3 $l4 $l5 $l6 $l7 $l8 $l9 $m1 $m2 $m3 $m4 $m5 >> $m6 >> $m7 $m8 $m9 $n1 $n2 $n3 $n4 $n5 $n6 $n7 $n8 $n9 $o1 $o2 $o3 $o4 $o5 $o6 >> $o7 >> $o8 $o9 $p1 $p2 $p3 $p4 $p5 $p6 $p7 $p8 $p9 $q1 $q2 $q3 $q4 $q5 $q6 $q7 >> $q8 >> $q9 $r1 $r2 $r3 $r4 $r5 $r6 $r7 $r8 $r9 $s1 $s2 $s3 $s4 $s5 $s6 $s7 $s8 >> $s9 >> $t1 $t2 $t3 $t4 $t5 $t6 $t7 $t8 $t9 $u1 $u2 $u3 $u4 $u5 $u6 $u7 $u8 $u9 >> $v1 >> $v2 $v3 $v4 $v5 $v6 $v7 $v8 $v9 $w1 $w2 $w3 $w4 $w5 $w6 $w7 $w8 $w9 $x1 >> $x2 >> $x3 $x4 $x5 $x6 $x7 $x8 $x9 $y1 $y2 $y3 $y4 $y5 $y6 $y7 $y8 $y9 $z1 $z2 >> $z3 >> $z4 $z5 $z6 $z7 $z8 $z9 >> >> (start your comparison at $b5) >> >> So in one axis Pharo has improved Transcript, but we didn't notice the >> significance of the use case we lost. >> >> cheers -ben >> > > Please take a good look at Cuis' Transcript and consider using it. > > By default, the display is updated immediately, but without calling > Morphic, it can even work with no UI framework at all. It does updates > faster than Squeak or Visualworks: > > Time millisecondsToRun: [ 1000 timesRepeat: [ Transcript show: > 'x' ] ]. 763. > > But if you want minimum overhead without immediate feedback: > > Time millisecondsToRun: [ Transcript showOnDisplay: false. 1000 > timesRepeat: [ Transcript show: 'x' ]. Transcript showOnDisplay: true ]. 1. > "As fast as Pharo" > > It is also thread safe, and for Ben's example: > > Transcript clear. > [ > $a asciiValue to: $z asciiValue do: [ :c | > [ 1 to: 9 do: [ :i | Transcript show: c asCharacter > printString , i printString , ' ' ] ] forkAt: 40 > ]. > ] forkAt: 41 > > it gives the same result as Pharo. > Thanks Juan, that sounds perfect. I'll take a look asap! > > The fact that the updates are not bound to Morphic also means that it is > possible to do #show: deep in Morphic logic, without causing infinite loops > or recursions, and get immediate feedback. It has proved to be a useful aid > in debugging Morphic code. > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > > > -- best, Eliot
