+1 let’s recapitulate:
requirement is - fast - editable - polymorphic with WriteStream - and immediate to screen from our perspective (pharo), it has to be also - thread safe - well designed. our constraints are: - bad design of transcripts - super naive implementation of text editors (this is, IMO, the reason why transcripts are so slow: if you redraw all the window interior each time you add a line, you are screw) basically… we need a good log console (if it is a transcript or not, is another discussion) :) So… who proposes a solution? Esteban > On 10 May 2015, at 00:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymc...@me.com> wrote: > > For me saying that internals are not important as long as transcript does > what is expected from it, is like saying that Parser being a subclass of > Scanner and Compiler being as subclass of Parser is ok as long as it compiles > source code. We already had that and it was bad. > > On the other hand it’s obvious that we don’t have enough resources to rewrite > Pharo from scratch and we cannot leave issues as they are just because we > cannot solve them perfectly now. > > I would say that Igor is correct saying that we need a better architecture, > and Stef and Eliot are correct saying that we need tools that fulfill users’ > needs. And we have to say: “ok now we hack this around, but we have to do > this the right way one day”. Is anyone familiar with same-css[1] concept? > > Uko > > P.S. maybe my 2 cents are useless, but all the fight around this discussion > is really strange for me. In Ukraine we have a saying that it’s better to be > healthy and poor than sick and rich. Now I use to say that it’s better to be > healthy and rich than sick and poor. And all the fight here was if it’s > better to be healthy or rich. Definitely it’s better to be both, we cannot do > that instantly but we can set goals and milestones, and find the optimal > strategy. > > > [1]: http://csswizardry.com/2013/04/shame-css/ > <http://csswizardry.com/2013/04/shame-css/> >> On 09 May 2015, at 16:17, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com >> <mailto:eliot.mira...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 5:29 AM, stepharo <steph...@free.fr >> <mailto:steph...@free.fr>> wrote: >> Eliot >> >> I changed the transcript because it is not thread safe so I could use it at >> all to explain concurrent programming output. >> It was terrible. >> >> I don't see what that has to do with my usability point. The transcript was >> a) a stream >> b) something that displayed its output immediately >> >> Those two features are essential. If you change the transcript so that it >> no longer has those features you have broken it. >> >> Igor waffled on about internals, the desire to separate the UI from the >> stream, a point that has nothing to do with the utility of the transcript. >> No you're going on about its thread-safety. But no one is addressing my >> point. And you have Clément telling you that he cannot develop the VM in >> Pharo because the transcript is broken, and you have others proposing >> various potentially error-prone work-arounds to get around the fact that the >> transcript is broken. >> >> Why won't anyone stand up and say yes, the transcript is broken and yes we >> will fix it? This is dysfunctional. >> >> >> Stef >> >> >> Le 8/5/15 16:16, Eliot Miranda a écrit : >> >> Hi, >> >> if one uses a at doit transcript then no special action is required to >> get output to appear beyond sending flush to Transcript right? So any >> solution that requires special action to get the moronic transcript to work >> us broken. We should fix the transcript, not expect every application to >> work around a bug. >> >> Eliot (phone) >> >> On May 8, 2015, at 6:15 AM, Alain Rastoul <alf.mmm....@gmail.com >> <mailto:alf.mmm....@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Le 08/05/2015 11:34, stepharo a écrit : >> Hi guys >> >> the Transcript in Pharo is that it's not asynchronous so I can't use it >> in VM development to show the current progress of the simulation. For >> example: >> 1 to: 100 do: [ :i | >> 0.1 seconds asDelay wait. >> Transcript show: 'x'. ] >> => on Squeak, this shows a x every 0.1 second in the Transcript >> => on Pharo, nothing happens during 10 seconds then all the x are shown. >> >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?15515 >> <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?15515> >> Yes, as do it are evaluated in the World morphic process, running in a >> forked process or sending World doOneCycle in the loop solve the problem. >> >> Probably in squeak, in Transcript this is done somewhere under the hood. >> >> via dependents ? >> >> TranscriptStream>>endEndtry >> "Display all the characters since the last endEntry, and reset the >> stream" >> self semaphore critical:[ >> self changed: #appendEntry. >> self reset. >> ]. >> >> Object>>changed: aParameter >> self dependents do: [:aDependent | aDependent update: aParameter] >> >> And probably not doOnecycle since you cannot do anything else during >> execution (clicking or moving windows). >> >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Alain >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> best, >> Eliot >
