You know people, you should get a life. The call was to Pharoers to improve Numerical Methods in Pharo. I understand that someone is pissed that Pharo is evolving, but I don’t understand why you keep replying to them.
Uko > On 06 Mar 2016, at 14:31, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev > <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > From: Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) > Date: 6 March 2016 at 14:31:24 GMT+1 > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > Cc: Benoit St-Jean <bstj...@yahoo.com> > Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <bstj...@yahoo.com>, Pharo Development List > <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > > > > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstj...@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) > Date: 6 March 2016 at 14:30:03 GMT+1 > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <bstj...@yahoo.com> > > > Amen! > > My lastname is St-Jean, like it or not I'm closer to Ducasse than > Hollansworth! > > I discovered Smalltalk with ObjectWorks on AIX : I'm closer to Pharo than > Python, C, C++, C#, Ruby, Snobol, Dart, Go or any other language... Like it > or not, I'm closer to Smalltalk than Java, COBOL or any other retarded > programming language... > > I've been working as a consultant in Smalltalk since the 90s. I don't care : > VW, VAST, VSE as long as it's Smalltalk! I'm closer to Pharo than I am to > anything else (except Modula-2). > > This stupid war is sooooooo stupid! > > If you know what the DNU acronym means, you're a Smalltalker. Period. > > Pharo can go its own way (whether I like it nor not), but it's still > Smalltalk! > > These guys (the Pharoers, and Stéphane Ducasse) have made *tremendous* steps > forward. Like "how come nobody ever did that for Smalltalk except James > Robertson" ? > > I like Pharo. I fell in love with VW 2.5. > > Vous êtes si belles, vous toutes! > > I love Smalltalk! > > > > ----------------- > Benoît St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > > From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com> > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 7:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) > > Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in > Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by > this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a > modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no > mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week > before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website > whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ? > > Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk > is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with > Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going > outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this is why I > use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I > dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority. > > I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very > uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at > some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont > happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and its > failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the language and > more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third party tool support > plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most likely a ton of Squeak > and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo because none sane enough would > removed code that has stood the test of time, is well designed and works c) > Even if you have a tiny sense or realism you will realize that the reason why > people use Pharo is because is a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying > to connect with modern technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in > the core. > > And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving. > > I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language, manual > memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries (MFC). Now > I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems (see auto , > templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers), vast array of > greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK etc). In 20 years > C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly than Pharo but far, > far better . Did we stop calling it C++ ? > > I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the end > we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I know > people rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to > begineers viewing this mailing that for me and many others: > > Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation > that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it. > > > Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo then > it makes more sense to call it SciPharo. > > On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert <volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de > <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>> wrote: > +100 > > > On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote: >> Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk >> >> - First because we make it to free us from the past. >> >> - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do >> not discard Pharo because >> >> - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in >> team" >> - "smalltalk oh it does not scale" >> - "I cannot edit my code with emacs" >> - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min >> to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)" >> - I did not get how you work in team >> - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn" >> - "Smalltalk is monolithic" >> - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside >> world" a guy organising OOPSLA >> - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en >> bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas >> etre si super que cela...." >> >> I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. >> I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can >> show that they are wrong. >> There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. >> No more no less. >> >> So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. >> >> So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the >> future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. >> There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to >> exist in 2050. >> The future is much more important that the history. >> >> You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add >> to cross the street to fetch water. >> >> >> >> >>> left blank on purpose >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit : >>>> Stef, >>>> >>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo < >>>> <mailto:steph...@free.fr>steph...@free.fr <mailto:steph...@free.fr>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the >>>>> same. >>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? >>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count? >>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than >>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ... >>>>> >>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our >>>>> language and do node.js. >>>>> Seriously. >>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can >>>>> tell you. >>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a >>>>> good opportunity. >>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility >>>>> of our system >>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. >>>>> Afterall I may be wrong. >>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay >>>>> with old friends >>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole >>>>> that does not want to >>>>> promote smalltalk. >>>> >>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. >>>> I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute >>>> false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with >>>> cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points >>>> about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived >>>> negatively? >>>> >>>> >>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire >>>> and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and >>>> supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about >>>> something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing >>>> is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. >>>> >>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are >>>> important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a >>>> spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called >>>> Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is >>>> inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. >>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo < >>>>>> <mailto:steph...@free.fr>steph...@free.fr <mailto:steph...@free.fr>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. >>>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library? >>>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? >>>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. >>>>>> Yes this looks like a >>>>>> smart move. >>>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about >>>>>> ruby and swift) >>>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented >>>>>> programming!! >>>>>> >>>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the >>>>>> community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses >>>>>> Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive >>>>>> disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of >>>>>> gratitude. >>>>>> >>>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level >>>>>> imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to >>>>>> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. >>>>>> >>>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and >>>>>> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. >>>>>> Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why >>>>>> anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive >>>>>> influence is beyond me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Offended, >>>>>> Eliot >>>>> >>> >> > > > > > > >
