Please let's move on. My motivation was trying to see the logic behind
licenses in Pharo (not on popularity of GPL vs MIT), raised by a valid
concern on free riding, enclosure of the commons and reciprocity, which
is a hot topic with a lot of debate in free culture/knowledge
communities. I learned about why MIT an alike are better in the context
of image based systems, Territorial was relicensed. Some people
apologized and some others went "+1". On personal attacks and rant
reactions, I think that, as a community, we can also learn from that a
try to minimize them.
It was another day in the community. With that cleared, let's move.
Cheers,
Offray
On 08/09/16 14:17, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
well he did apologize
And these things do happen in all communities, I cannot begin to
describe the poison I have received in the #common-lisp irc channel.
One time also in their mailing list , some old member got annoyed for
small reason with a begineer and he gave him code to delete his hard
drive, fortunately other members replied immediately after warning the
beginner not to execute the code.
License wise MIT/BSD are by far the top most popular license , they
got so popular that FSF was forced to release LGPL to compete with
them but at the same time not upsetting too much their GPL supporters.
So as you can see Pharo is no exception, its actually the rule. Also
other licenses are very close to MIT/BSD making MIT almost a monopoly
on open source software.
Don't believe me ? Here are the top trending github repos that contain
a code license ( creative commons applies not to code but mainly to
assets, music, sound, text, graphics, fonts, etc)
https://github.com/facebook/zstd
https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow
https://github.com/vuejs/vue
https://github.com/camwiegert/in-view
https://github.com/nasa/openmct
https://github.com/baidu/Paddle
https://github.com/facebookresearch/fastText
https://github.com/david-gpu/srez
https://github.com/quilljs/quill
https://github.com/shekhargulati/52-technologies-in-2016
Mostly they are MIT , others are MIT like licenses like Apache and
BSD, only one is a custom made one still similar to MIT. None GPL not
even LGPL.
https://github.com/trending?since=monthly
Actually you can continued down the list and I am sure will take you
even more time to find a GPL or even LGPL licensed open source project.
On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 1:23 PM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
<offray.l...@mutabit.com <mailto:offray.l...@mutabit.com>> wrote:
Hi Tudor,
I recognize the impedance with mail as an expression medium and
most of
the time it was like you said, except when Stef addressed to me with
"It is amazing how you like talking" (is this some kind of
invitation to
"just shut up!"? Is that a "remainder" I have not written enough
code to
have a valid voice here?).
For me, if someone has no the time for a detailed response, going
with:
"GPL is a plague", "You can argue I don't care" or "Pharo is MIT.
Period.", or fighting the person instead of fighting the argument,
makes
more harm that good. No clarification, because lack of energy or time,
seems better that these alternative "clarifications". Not all the
people
is trying to start a holy war anytime makes a suggestion or shows a
different position. Sometimes we're just trying to contribute and
understand, even when we come from different places, interests and
life
paths.
Thanks for pointing the LGPL issue (so, 3 BSD, MIT, public domain
are a
good fit). At least I made my contribution by pointing the Etoile
place
where there is a *rationale* behind a license choosing that makes this
licensing issues clearer for newcomers.
Energy is low today, but putting things in perspective, most of
the time
community is welcoming, even if particular interactions among
people are
not.
Cheers,
Offray
On 08/09/16 11:40, Tudor Girba wrote:
> Hi Offray,
>
> I am sorry you feel down.
>
> The wording of Stef did appear strong. However, please keep in
mind that email is a terrible medium for expressing and
transmitting feelings. I would kindly ask you to reconsider the
emails and focus on the content and you will see that the wording
was not about the external project but about the decisions that
relate to the licensing of Pharo itself. As Esteban and I
clarified, Pharo is MIT and will remain MIT. There is a long
history of why this is so and a huge amount of effort to make it
clean MIT. To keep it clean we have to be aware of the
implications of another kind of a license, and our clarifications
were about how we, those that work on the main Pharo code, will
not touch a GPL code and that this might have a counter productive
impact on the originator of the code in question (due to a lack of
engagement from other people).
>
> Please also keep in mind that we do not want to prevent people
from choosing their own licenses. The decision of the license
belongs exclusively to the creators of the code. We are only
looking for the interests of the core of Pharo to make sure that
you will continue to have whatever options you choose on top of
it. And you will always be free to choose what you want for your
projects.
>
> Just a note about other licenses you mentioned: in the context
of Pharo, LGPL has the same effect as GPL given that there is no
concept of binary reusability in our system. So, for that purpose,
we also do not touch LGPL.
>
> A final point: when someone says that "we decided something a
long time ago”, it is easy to take it as a “this is it, just take
it”, but that would be a bit unfair. A more fair alternative is to
understand that time is scarce and sometimes we just do not have
the available energy to provide all clarifications on demand right
at that point.
>
> Please let’s focus on building things together, even if there
are misunderstandings or seaming differences in opinion. We need
everyone’s energy.
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
>> On Sep 8, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
<offray.l...@mutabit.com <mailto:offray.l...@mutabit.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Nice to know something good came out after taking all the heat.
In my case I learn about licensing with the reasons behind and not
"just take it!"...
>> My sources of information, the main spec.st <http://spec.st>
site, made my mistake about dual license a valid misinterpretation
and even the idea that there are other non-viral licenses: LGPL, 3
clause BSD, public domain that can integrated in a MIT licensed
project, with the rationale behind [1], seems a good thing to make
explicit
>> [1] http://etoileos.com/dev/licensing/
>> Kind of down though, after seeing how a community leader can go
after other people who don't share his views/knowledge and is just
trying to contribute, understand and be part of the community.
Today would be a slow day for me in Smalltak... maybe is time to
take a walk a leave it for a time.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Offray
>>
>> On 08/09/16 06:00, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
>>> I consider GNU AGPL v3 a fair license choice which protects
somehow authors. After some talks with friends today, I began to
consider it useless for a niche community like Smalltalk *and*
solo projects. I then read all your mails, many posts in other
communities, and finally asked for advices. Conclusion: The ideal
license option for me was not yet invented.
>>>
>>> Now about parasite behavior and easy living for freeloaders.
>>>
>>> - I doubt Smalltalkers are in position for doing anything
valuable against parasites. GPL scares a niche community. All of
us having MIT code published can be stealed and we have no legal
options to defend our work/authorship. That should be addressed
one day.
>>>
>>> - However, I would like one day to read people releasing
software under whatever license they want and not to be pointed
them. That's a matter of freedom. I feel we are far away from there.
>>>
>>> - I hope we can talk about interesting Territorial features,
what do you need, what could be modeled better, etc. Licensing is
boring, really.
>>>
>>> I re-licensed Territorial to MIT for the nice Pharo people,
for the nice Smalltalkers, people who helped me here in mailing
lists, or sending supportive private messages, and for cool users
with nice intentions.
>>>
>>> Hernán
>>>
>>> PS: Updated User Manual: http://bit.ly/2c4RrCJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com>
> www.feenk.com <http://www.feenk.com>
>
> "Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to
know her."
>
>
>
>
>
>
