Thank you very much. Just to be clear, even if I'd love to be able to do such things, working in Pharo is far from being a pain. Those things are just "nice to have". Even if I don't find easy ways to do what I'd like to, I can always do it myself, my way. Furthermore, it'd be good for me to do so. That's why I think Pharo (and Smalltalk) is what Paul Graham describes as the Bulb paradox.
El jue., 24 ene. 2019 a las 19:54, Dimitris Chloupis (<kilon.al...@gmail.com>) escribió: > yeah the System Browser has some shortcuts that you can find if you click > that down arrow in top right corner of the window > > About getting Window info, that is tricky, all is available through > Morphic but Morphic is kinda messy. So if you are willing to do the hard > work its definetly doable , you can create your own shortcuts etc. > > Finding the leftmost probably you will ask the World morph about all > windows , ask each window whether its opened and if yes where is located > (morph >>position) > I think the focus is in SystemWindow >> isActive , look also at > basicActivate for a better idea what activation means > > For groups there is isEmbeded , also Morph >> embededMorphs > > No idea about the Playground, it keeps timestamped session of whatever you > do so there is definetly something > > Yeah Pharo is not Emacs that's for sure. Mainly because we attract people > who are mouse driven, people who are keyboard driven tend to avoid IDEs. > Its doable , its just not available out of the box. > > I can feel your pain though, this has been an issue for me with Pharo, the > power is there, but its not easy to access. However to be fair Emacs has > been around a lot longer and has far larger community of contributors so > its no wonder it can do these things with ease. Emacs also has amazing > documentation. But sadly is no IDE and its shortcuts is pure insanity, but > then I am a mouse person myself. Ironically I was raised on CLIs and I > always hated them with passion :D > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 8:32 PM Jose San Leandro <jose.sanlean...@osoco.es> > wrote: > >> I don't want to hijack this thread, but it would be useful for me to have >> a cheatsheet to allow me to do the usual operations I do with the mouse, >> programatically. I've had some difficulties with simple things in the past. >> For example, to delete all Transcript or Playground windows, I use calls >> such as >> >> (World submorphs select: [ :w | ((w model printString beginsWith: 'a >>> GTPlayground') or: [ w model printString beginsWith: 'Transcript' ]) not ]) >>> do: [ :w | w delete ]. >>> >> >> I'm missing ways to query World submorphs to know exactly my target >> instance. For example: >> - Which is the leftmost window? >> - Which window has the focus? >> - Which windows have "grouping" enabled? >> - Which Playground instance I used more recently? >> >> And operations such as: >> - Maximize morph. >> - Activate "class side" in Nautilus. >> - Select "accessing" protocol. >> - Select package X. >> - Select "Hierarchy". >> - Choose the next child when "hierarchy" is active. >> >>> - Resize the method panel. >>> >> >> Also, basic things like: >> - Move to the next word. >> - Highlight previous word. >> - Highlight current line. >> >> That would be very helpful for me. I'm not saying it's difficult to do, >> I'm just saying for me it'd be helpful. >> That's basically why I love Emacs, because I can do with the keyboard >> anything that can be done with the mouse, and more. >> >> Thanks! >> >> El jue., 24 ene. 2019 a las 19:05, Dimitris Chloupis (< >> kilon.al...@gmail.com>) escribió: >> >>> Playground is a REPL inside Pharo so I am not sure I understand what you >>> are asking. Everything in Pharo is just Classes and methods so you can do >>> whatever you want. If you are a bit more descriptive maybe I can help you >>> more. There is no such thing as a bad idea, just an idea that has not >>> mature enough :D >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 7:53 PM Jose San Leandro < >>> jose.sanlean...@osoco.es> wrote: >>> >>>> I was aware of that. I was imaging a way to use the tools available in >>>> Pharo, but within a REPL session. >>>> Probably a bad idea anyway. I just think the mouse is useful when >>>> exploring, but it's ridiculously inefficient once you know exactly what you >>>> want to do. >>>> In my 4k monitor I often feel like if I was saying "no, I want to >>>> resize the window, not moving it, not changing the focus, thanks". I have >>>> to waste time being accurate enough with the mouse, because it's the >>>> expected way to communicate with live objects. Mouse, then keyboard. Not >>>> good. >>>> >>>> El jue., 24 ene. 2019 a las 18:36, Dimitris Chloupis (< >>>> kilon.al...@gmail.com>) escribió: >>>> >>>>> "I am sure there will always be skeptics. But my own experience was >>>>> different. For me, the most weird thing about Squeak (and now Pharo) >>>>> IDE >>>>> is its insistence in showing only one method at a time. A method is >>>>> too >>>>> small a chunk of code. It is easy to miss the forest for the trees. In >>>>> Dimitris video, you see lots more code in one glance in vim session. >>>>> So >>>>> there are pragmatic reasons why some coders fallback to using fileOuts >>>>> for browsing classes." >>>>> >>>>> I could not agree more , I find the column GUI weird and a waste of >>>>> space. This is why I have ended up relying a lot on GTSpotter (finder) >>>>> which help me browse classes a lot faster than the class browser. Kinda >>>>> ironic. >>>>> >>>>> I am using Pharo since 2011. I am still dont like Class Browser :D >>>>> >>>>> "In summary, if someone misses Emacs or Vim when working with Pharo, >>>>> it could be due to: >>>>> - being stuck in the file-based way to think of coding. >>>>> " >>>>> Its a common misconception that Pharo does not heavily rely on text >>>>> files, it actually does. Not only the source file makes it possible to >>>>> view >>>>> the code even the oldest method of version control tha Pharo being a fork, >>>>> inherited from Squeak, the known mcz files they may look small binary >>>>> files >>>>> like the Pharo image but they are merely zip files with source code text >>>>> files with the st extension. >>>>> >>>>> The image is merely the bytecode, the VMs machine code sort of, the >>>>> actually source works the same way as other languages. Like other >>>>> languages >>>>> you dont need the source code to execute , only the bytecode. What makes >>>>> the image special is that its one file and its a memory dump which makes >>>>> it >>>>> easy to store both live code and live state. Which is very helpful, >>>>> technically its mandatory for true live coding, but still Pharo has to >>>>> rely >>>>> on source code files to make our lives easy. From there on is just a >>>>> question whether you break the source code files in several small ones, or >>>>> keep one large. >>>>> >>>>> "Besides that, is there an easy way to run an image in text-only mode, >>>>> with a REPL or a playground or something like that?" >>>>> >>>>> Yeap its possible and has been around for a very long time. Pharo also >>>>> makes it dead easy to expose any method as command line argument, so its >>>>> possible to code completely from the command line although definitely not >>>>> recommended. >>>>> >>>>> Deep Into Pharo book explains how. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 7:17 PM K K Subbu <kksubbu...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 24/01/19 9:47 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> On 24 Jan 2019, at 17:04, K K Subbu <kksubbu...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On 24/01/19 7:23 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>>>> >>> Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, >>>>>> >>> but really, why the hell would you want to do that ? >>>>>> >> Because text has many uses other than just feeding into a compiler >>>>>> >> for translation to machine code? People who come from Unix/Linux >>>>>> >> world are used to using a rich collection of tools that deal with >>>>>> >> text in various ways. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I am myself a server/linux guy, an emacs user, I know what is all >>>>>> > possible and what the unix philosophy is. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No offense intended. Just wanted to point out that text can have >>>>>> different purposes. Historically, Smalltalk presented itself as a >>>>>> OS+IDE. Today, that is no longer true. Pharo is just a multi-platform >>>>>> IDE. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I also know how to integrate Pharo into that world, and this is >>>>>> super >>>>>> > important. >>>>>> Thanks. This is what I intended to bring out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to >>>>>> >>> start. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Live coding (i.e. coding in the presence of instances) is >>>>>> >> undoubtedly more powerful than edit-compile-run cycle. Text is used >>>>>> >> to direct IDE to edit live objects. But text has many more uses >>>>>> >> than just issuing commands. If beginners start using vim just to >>>>>> >> edit code due to established habits, they will soon realize the >>>>>> >> ease of live coding and remain in IDE. This is a self-correcting >>>>>> >> error. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Well, I don't think so. >>>>>> > The users that you are going to attract in this way (the ones that >>>>>> > don't want to leave their own IDE/editor), will look at textual >>>>>> Pharo >>>>>> > and find it very strange and ill suited to textual editing (and they >>>>>> > are absolutely right), they will not discover the power, will not >>>>>> > learn (from this experience alone) what object >>>>>> > design/programming/power is, and will ask for more (e.g. give me , >>>>>> > style compiler errors, better/easier structure of the file, fixed >>>>>> the >>>>>> > !! escape issue, etc, ...). >>>>>> >>>>>> I am sure there will always be skeptics. But my own experience was >>>>>> different. For me, the most weird thing about Squeak (and now Pharo) >>>>>> IDE >>>>>> is its insistence in showing only one method at a time. A method is >>>>>> too >>>>>> small a chunk of code. It is easy to miss the forest for the trees. >>>>>> In >>>>>> Dimitris video, you see lots more code in one glance in vim session. >>>>>> So >>>>>> there are pragmatic reasons why some coders fallback to using >>>>>> fileOuts >>>>>> for browsing classes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards .. Subbu >>>>>> >>>>>>
