No, and I did try and interest a company in making them. If you do a patent search, you will find the machines developed to shear the tungsten wire and swage it into the end of the needles shank too. The machines had to have been made. I wonder if they fell victim to scrap metal drives or something.
Ron L -----Original Message----- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Albert Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 1:37 PM To: 'Antique Phonograph List' Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles? Are tungstone needles being reproduced today for commercial sale? -----Original Message----- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Ron L'Herault Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:34 AM To: 'Antique Phonograph List' Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles? I believe Victor also mentions using the lead out groove for shaping the tip of the Tungstone. Ron L -----Original Message----- From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org] On Behalf Of Greg Bogantz Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 PM To: Antique Phonograph List Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles? Hi Chris, Yes, that's right. There was no shaping of the end of the wire on Victor Tungstones. I just confirmed that by looking at a couple of NOS Tungstones that I have. The wire was sheared to essentially a flat end shape. Victor advised playing a junk record first to shape the end of the wire before using a new needle to play good records. Likewise, Victor advised reshaping the needle by playing a junk record if the user ever removed the needle and then remounted it in the reproducer. The wire wears into the shape of the groove in just a minute or so of play, so the initial shape of it is irrelevant. I failed to comment earlier specifically on the claim that osmium and other hard needles could be removed and remounted without a problem. This is NOT correct, for the same reason that Victor advised reshaping their tungsten needles if they were remounted. The needle tip wears into the "V" shape of the groove fairly quickly, depending on the hardness of the needle. Remounting the needle with exactly the same orientation as when it was removed is almost impossible. After remounting, there is a very high probability that the misoriented needle will severely gouge the record for a while until it is reformed to fit the groove, the moreso with the harder needles. This is not so much of a problem with the tungsten wire needles as they can be reformed in only about a minute of play with a junk record. Greg Bogantz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kocsis" <chris...@cox.net> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l@oldcrank.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles? > Thank you, Greg! > > Are you saying that tungsten wire shaped needles are just clipped lengths > of tungsten wire, without a point being formed on them before being used > to play a record? > > Chris > > Greg Bogantz wrote: >> Osmium tipped needles were a transitional style. They were the >> cheapest "permanent" needle typically marketed in the late 1930s thru the >> '50s. The more expensive varieties of "permanent" needles were sapphire >> or ruby and the most expensive were diamond. People were using record >> changers and didn't want to mess around with changing steel needles all >> the time, so these styles became popular. The problem with all of these >> needles in that time period is that the pickups tracked at too high a >> force for any of them to be optimal with regard to record wear. The >> magnetic and crystal pickups of that period typically tracked at between >> 30 and 80 grams. Although that's less than the 80 to 150 grams of the >> earlier acoustic reproducer period, it's still just too high for any of >> these hard needles. They were especially deadly when used with the early >> vinyl 78s that were beginning to appear after WWII. The proper >> technology for high tracking forces was the steel or tungsten wire needle >> when used with shellac records that contained abrasive fillers that were >> intended to quickly wear the needle into conformance with the groove >> shape. But, of course, the steel needles needed to be changed with every >> record side or two. Tungsten WIRE shaped needles are superior to the >> osmium tipped needles because the cylindrical wire shape retains the same >> cross-sectional area during the entire lifetime of the needle. The >> osmium needles were tapered and as they wore they got a bigger cross >> section. This is fine until the cross section gets too big to fit into >> the groove width which happens after just a few records are played. Then >> the needle forms shoulders that ride outside the groove and on the land >> of the record. This lifts the needle out of close contact with the >> groove walls which leads to mistracking, distortion, and high record >> wear. These hard needles, especially the sapphire and diamond ones don't >> wear down quickly, and instead wear the records. These needles that were >> typical in this time period are the main reason that records that have >> survived from the '30s thru the '50s look worn and sound more distorted >> and worn than records that have survived from the teens and '20s and that >> were played properly with steel or tungsten wire needles. The use of >> these hard needles only became proper when pickup tracking forces were >> reduced to 10 grams or less in the 1950s. I don't feel comfortable using >> them even above about 5 grams. Tracking forces of 1 to 2 grams became >> commonplace in the early 1960s, and jewel-tipped needles are perfectly >> satisfactory when used in these pickups. >> >> The bottom line is, I would NOT recommend using hard needles in any >> pickup tracking at more than 10 grams if you want to preserve your >> records. When new, these needles will sound good for a while. But they >> will be grinding the bejeezus out of your records if you are tracking >> them at 30 grams or more. If you have a jukebox or record changer that >> operates at high tracking force, use tungsten wire needles. Or change >> the pickup (and tonearm if necessary) to allow tracking forces below 10 >> grams if you want to use jewel-tipped needles. Osmium would also work in >> this application, but it will wear out after 20 sides or so, even at this >> tracking force. Osmium is just a bad idea for just about any >> application. >> >> Greg Bogantz >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kocsis" <chris...@cox.net> >> To: <phono-l@oldcrank.org> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:47 PM >> Subject: [Phono-L] Coin machine or jukebox needles? >> >> >>> Can anyone give me the lowdown on jukebox needles? I bought some new >>> old stock Cole's coin machine needles with osmium tips. The package >>> says the needle lasts many plays and doesn't have to be rotated. I'm >>> also curious about the shape of the needle. A couple of millimeters up >>> from the point, the metal is flattened into a pointed oval like a cobra >>> head and then resumes being cylindrical. What is that for? >>> >>> Osmium is nearly as hard as tungsten and I've seen some references to >>> people cutting their own needles from tungsten wire and forming the >>> point by rubbing the cut end in a record groove while rotating it (which >>> seems astonishing). >>> >>> Is such hardness a good idea in a needle, or does it cause excessive >>> record wear? >>> If these jukebox needles are safe to use, how do I tell when it's time >>> to change one? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Chris >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Phono-L mailing list >>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phono-L mailing list >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
