On 3/11/12 12:46 AM, Martin Aspeli wrote:
On 11 March 2012 06:58, Mikko Ohtamaa <mikko+pl...@redinnovation.com<mailto:mikko%2bpl...@redinnovation.com>> wrote: Last night while talking to Clayton and Liz about the whole ZopeSkel/Paster/Templer/Crushinator situation it became clear that the story for new developers is a complete mess. This is bad, and having a new shinny thing that "eases" Plone development just made the situation even worse -- as long as someone must use it and then <zopeskel create> & <paster addcontent>. Time to kill most of the available options, focus on **just one** and have a compelling story to tell to newcomers. +1 for cleaning up the old stuff before inventing new stuff A good step would be making buildout just work, as it is indented Yay for stop energy. :-/ I want a solution that works now to a very specific problem: people expect to be able to use an OS-managed/system Python to develop with Plone. And when they try, their environment breaks in all kinds of hard-to-debug ways. I don't want a framework or something with a million things that can go wrong. plone-devstart is a dirt simple script using nothing but the Python standard library. And, crucially, it scans the environment looking for known/common problems. I'm more concerned about the overlap with the installers, though that's a slightly different discussion again. The point is that *once you have a stable/clean environment*, you can have all kinds of good tools. But if you can't get those tools to install or run, you're screwed. Even if buildout should "just work" you still need to install it. And you still need to worry about whether you have the right Python version. And you may still be missing PIL C library dependencies, or have a poisonous libxml2 killing lxml dead in your global library, or be missing Python headers or a C compiler. None of those are within Buildout's scope, and they are causing real problems for real people *today*. Thanks for working on this, Martin. It sounds like a great tool and I'm looking forward to giving it a try. We do also really need to fix the ZopeSkel situation. Right now a ton of tutorials give instructions for it that just don't work with the new version, which is a huge huge barrier for newbies. But having ZopeSkel implementation and docs in sync is a different problem than getting a working development set up, so I don't understand the stop energy from people. plone-devstart and ZopeSkel are complementary tools. David David Glick Web Developer davidgl...@groundwire.org 206.286.1235x32 [http://gw-logo.s3.amazonaws.com/gw-email-signature.png] The NPO Engagement Party 2012.<http://www.npoengagementparty.com> So much more fun than the wedding reception.
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