Mike, No, I am quoting the ACoE which has said all along the levees were designed for a fast moving cat 3 storm. Not my words. I had nothing to do with their design. And btw, I noted "fast moving cat 3" two posts ago, so it's not dishonesty on my part but rather your poor reading comprehension.
The fact is, Katrina was a cat 5 one day before landfall. It was so massive and powerful that it kicked up a cat 5 storm surge. The ACoE expected a storm of this size to overrun the levees, though they did not expect them to be breached. A simulation in 2002 predicted a storm the size of Katrina would devastate New Orleans. Again, this is not my word.. I am only paraphrasing, or quoting, depending on which post. The ACoE has indicated the work impacted by the Bush cuts was not something that would have prevented the devastation Katrina inflicted. The LA Times article (link provided) gives a pretty good historical perspective of the 20 years leading up to Katrina. This is the genesis of the failure of the levee system, not the Bush cuts. I’m sure the Bush cuts didn’t help, but they should not be presented as the cause of the disaster. And no, what I said was the death toll could have been significantly reduced had people been evacuated in a timely fashion. The city had a dysfunctional evacuation plan, despite a review of the plan a year earlier. To argue Nagin didn’t have drivers for the buses only enforces that the plan was dysfunctional. I did not tie the death toll to the Bush cuts so I’m not sure where that comment is coming from. I’m saying the disaster was going to happen with or without the cuts, but the death toll could have been significantly reduced if the people had left the city before the storm. Pretty simple concept. None of this absolves FEMA and the Bush administration’s response to Katrina, both before and after. I’ve been clear, fwiw, that I thought the response was poor and often embarrassing. I only object to those who try to lay all the blame on FEMA and Bush. The disaster was the culmination of many mistakes, starting 20 years before Katrina, and the blame is shared by many at all levels. On Jan 20, 2:09 pm, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> wrote: > so now you wish to change your claim form the levees were made for a > fast moving storm instead of just a storm . and the death toll would > been almost none if bush had not cut the funding SELA ! > your dishonesty is noted ! > On Jan 20, 12:28 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > As expected, you completely ignore everything that doesn't place blame > > on Bush. The storm made landfall as a strong cat 3, that is true, but > > the storm surge was 28-29' and typical of a cat 5. Further, the storm > > was massively wide and slow moving, so it battered the area for a very > > long time. The levees were designed to withstand a fast moving cat 3. > > That means a much lower storm surge and a storm that passes thru > > quickly. The ACoE has concluded the levee system was not designed to > > withstand what it was hit with. The ACoE has said the work that was > > affected by the Bush cuts wouldn't have made a difference. It was the > > reengineering project, scheduled to complete 10 years later, which was > > going to make a difference. I'm guessing you didn't read the article > > at the link I provided. Why worry about facts when anti-Bush rhetoric > > is much more fun. > > > And the death toll would have been MUCH lower had the people been > > evacuated properly. The best way to survive a storm is to not be there > > when it arrives. You ignore that because the fault for that is with > > Nagin and Blanco. > > > On Jan 20, 11:32 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > check again it was a cat three when it came through New Orleans . and > > > the SELA project was designed to maintain the levees which failed > > > because the bush administration cut the funding and the repairs were > > > not done ! > > > and even after the levees failed the death toll would have been much > > > less fi bush had not blocked any aid from getting to the people > > > trapped by the flood . > > > On Jan 20, 10:27 am, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > VT, > > > > > > Mayor had no one to drive the buses, maybe if their had > > > > > been some National Guard to help evacuate the Poor, elderly > > > > > and sick, you know the ones without the ability to leave without > > > > > assistance? > > > > > In case you weren’t aware, there ARE local, city and state government > > > > agencies whose responsibility is to take care of their people prior to > > > > and during a disaster. FEMA is a first responder. They are to respond > > > > after the disaster, not before. FEMA can not be proud of how they > > > > responded AFTER the disaster, but this bullshit attitude that somehow > > > > it’s not the responsibility of local, city or state governments to get > > > > their people safe beforehand is really disturbing. You’d think, since > > > > they reviewed their evacuation plan just one year before Katrina as a > > > > result of Ivan, that Nagin and Blanco would have understood the need > > > > for drivers. That they didn’t have them available is a disgrace. That > > > > you now want to lay blame for that on National Guardsmen not being > > > > there to drive them is not only bullshit, but it’s fundamentally > > > > wrong. That is NOT their role. > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > bush cut the funding for the SELA project to use the money in Iraq . > > > > > which resulted in the failure of the levees killing thousands of > > > > > Americans ! the storm did not cause very much damage to New Orleans > > > > > the flooding from the river caused the damage . > > > > > Bush cut funding, that is true. But the projects affected by the cuts > > > > were only designed to sure up some weak spots, not fundamentally > > > > change the design of the levees. The Army Corp of Engineers has made > > > > it very clear that the levee system was not designed to withstand > > > > anything worse than fast moving cat 3 storms. Katrina started out a > > > > cat 5 and dropped to a cat 4 as it made landfall. The ACoE has > > > > acknowledged that even without the cuts the levees would not have > > > > saved the city. Is it possible some of the breaches might not have > > > > occurred? It’s possible, but no one has gone so far as to make that > > > > assessment. There was a full redesign project for the levee system > > > > that was scheduled to be completed in 2015. > > > > > In 2002, New Orleans officials held a simulation of what would happen > > > > in a category 5 storm. Walter Maestri, the emergency coordinator of > > > > Jefferson Parish in New Orleans , recounted the outcome to PBS’ NOW > > > > With Bill Moyers: > > > > > Maestri, September 2002: “Well, when the exercise was completed it was > > > > evidence that we were going to lose a lot of people. We changed the > > > > name of the [simulated] storm from Delaney to K-Y-A-G-B... kiss your > > > > ass goodbye... because anybody who was here as that category five > > > > storm came across... was gone.” > > > > > Now, if you’re really interested in the root cause for the disaster > > > > you might want to check out; > > > > http://articles.latimes.com/2005/dec/25/nation/na-levee25 > > > > There is a 20 year history of infighting and mismanagement of funds > > > > PRIOR to Katrina. But I suspect you’re far more interested in blaming > > > > Bush than you are in understanding the true causes of the disaster, so > > > > I won’t hold my breath. > > > > > It is not my intention to defend Bush or FEMA. They did some things > > > > right but for the most part I still consider the response a failure > > > > and at times embarrassing. But I will always argue the human toll > > > > could have been, to a large extent, avoided had local, city and state > > > > authorities done what they should have done and I think it’s tragic > > > > that they’ve been given all but a free pass by those whose primary > > > > goal is to blame Bush for everything. > > > > > On Jan 20, 3:29 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > bush cut the funding for the SELA project to use the money in Iraq . > > > > > which resulted in the failure of the levees killing thousands of > > > > > Americans ! the storm did not cause very much damage to New Orleans > > > > > the flooding from the river caused the damage . as for the slow > > > > > response to help people in the city bush ordered Fema to stop all aid > > > > > and assistance unless the Governor turned over control of the state to > > > > > the federal government . > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2:46 pm, VT Sean Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > George Bush's Legacy is the Failure that was Katrina > > > > > > This was the anatomy to all of Bush's failures. > > > > > > > Sean Lewis > > > > > > January 19, 2009 > > > > > > > Katrina was a Category 5 hurricane that slowly > > > > > > moved across the Gulf of Mexico growing in > > > > > > size and threat. > > > > > > > Bush was briefed on the threat and warned about > > > > > > the possible scenarios. > > > > > > > People were giving warnings about the threat. > > > > > > > Authorities were requesting help from Washington > > > > > > specifically from the White House for help to deal > > > > > > with the threat. > > > > > > > The world was also aware of the threat. > > > > > > > Bush was made aware of the threat, made some > > > > > > public statements and then did no follow through > > > > > > to actually prepare for the threat. > > > > > > > The threat became a reality and all that was predicted > > > > > > and warned about occurred. > > > > > > > Bush did nothing. Bush did not end his vacation to > > > > > > do his job, he was AWOL again. > > > > > > > Americans suffered and died. > > > > > > > Bush still did nothing. > > > > > > > The press. the country and the world cried out for > > > > > > something to be done. Rice went to NYC to buy > > > > > > shoes. Bush went to a party, and the rest of the > > > > > > Administration stayed on vacation. > > > > > > > When Bush was finally shown a tape of what the > > > > > > world had been watching 24/7 for 3 days, THEN and > > > > > > only then did he react. > > > > > > > He started by saying who could have predicted such > > > > > > a threat and he had no warning. He took no > > > > > > responsibility and put the blame on everyone > > > > > > else from the victims to nature but he never saw > > > > > > himself as being accountable for his failure to > > > > > > anticipate and be proactive in dealing with this threat. > > > > > > > This is the anatomy of every Bush failure from > > > > > > 9/11 to the current economic meltdown. > > > > > > > Bush denied there was a housing meltdown or a recession for > > > > > > a year. Imagine if Bush had been proactive a year ago > > > > > > in dealing with the housing meltdown and the economy? > > > > > > Instead Bush denied there was a problem because his motives > > > > > > and loyalty was to his political party and not the American > > > > > > citizens he had sworn to serve and protect. > > > > > > > Bush seemed to have risen beyond his pay-scale and was > > > > > > more interested in mountain biking and playing at being > > > > > > President than actually having the intellectual acumen to > > > > > > BE president. > > > > > > > When Bush was first elected I said the man could not handle > > > > > > the job of being the President, but I consoled myself by > > > > > > saying 'how much harm can he do?' > > > > > > > 8 years later and for years to come in the future the failure > > > > > > that was Bush, is the Legacy this country will have to contend > > > > > > with along with the residue of the cascading collaspsing failures > > > > > > left festering on the American landscape.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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