the bottom line is the levees failed because bush cut the funding for their repair and maintenance ! the shelters worked just fine until the levees failed AFTER the storm was over and in fact the storm came ashore east of New Orleans . But even if i ignored all of the facts and excepted your view that bush was blameless and Nagain was at fault which i don't ! that still does not excuse bush for refusing aid and rescue to the people of New Orleans because the Governor would not turnover control of the State to bush .
On Jan 20, 3:04 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > Mike, > > No, I am quoting the ACoE which has said all along the levees were > designed for a fast moving cat 3 storm. Not my words. I had nothing to > do with their design. And btw, I noted "fast moving cat 3" two posts > ago, so it's not dishonesty on my part but rather your poor reading > comprehension. > > The fact is, Katrina was a cat 5 one day before landfall. It was so > massive and powerful that it kicked up a cat 5 storm surge. The ACoE > expected a storm of this size to overrun the levees, though they did > not expect them to be breached. A simulation in 2002 predicted a storm > the size of Katrina would devastate New Orleans. Again, this is not my > word.. I am only paraphrasing, or quoting, depending on which post. > > The ACoE has indicated the work impacted by the Bush cuts was not > something that would have prevented the devastation Katrina inflicted. > The LA Times article (link provided) gives a pretty good historical > perspective of the 20 years leading up to Katrina. This is the genesis > of the failure of the levee system, not the Bush cuts. I’m sure the > Bush cuts didn’t help, but they should not be presented as the cause > of the disaster. > > And no, what I said was the death toll could have been significantly > reduced had people been evacuated in a timely fashion. The city had a > dysfunctional evacuation plan, despite a review of the plan a year > earlier. To argue Nagin didn’t have drivers for the buses only > enforces that the plan was dysfunctional. > > I did not tie the death toll to the Bush cuts so I’m not sure where > that comment is coming from. I’m saying the disaster was going to > happen with or without the cuts, but the death toll could have been > significantly reduced if the people had left the city before the > storm. Pretty simple concept. > > None of this absolves FEMA and the Bush administration’s response to > Katrina, both before and after. I’ve been clear, fwiw, that I thought > the response was poor and often embarrassing. I only object to those > who try to lay all the blame on FEMA and Bush. The disaster was the > culmination of many mistakes, starting 20 years before Katrina, and > the blame is shared by many at all levels. > > On Jan 20, 2:09 pm, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > so now you wish to change your claim form the levees were made for a > > fast moving storm instead of just a storm . and the death toll would > > been almost none if bush had not cut the funding SELA ! > > your dishonesty is noted ! > > On Jan 20, 12:28 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > As expected, you completely ignore everything that doesn't place blame > > > on Bush. The storm made landfall as a strong cat 3, that is true, but > > > the storm surge was 28-29' and typical of a cat 5. Further, the storm > > > was massively wide and slow moving, so it battered the area for a very > > > long time. The levees were designed to withstand a fast moving cat 3. > > > That means a much lower storm surge and a storm that passes thru > > > quickly. The ACoE has concluded the levee system was not designed to > > > withstand what it was hit with. The ACoE has said the work that was > > > affected by the Bush cuts wouldn't have made a difference. It was the > > > reengineering project, scheduled to complete 10 years later, which was > > > going to make a difference. I'm guessing you didn't read the article > > > at the link I provided. Why worry about facts when anti-Bush rhetoric > > > is much more fun. > > > > And the death toll would have been MUCH lower had the people been > > > evacuated properly. The best way to survive a storm is to not be there > > > when it arrives. You ignore that because the fault for that is with > > > Nagin and Blanco. > > > > On Jan 20, 11:32 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > check again it was a cat three when it came through New Orleans . and > > > > the SELA project was designed to maintain the levees which failed > > > > because the bush administration cut the funding and the repairs were > > > > not done ! > > > > and even after the levees failed the death toll would have been much > > > > less fi bush had not blocked any aid from getting to the people > > > > trapped by the flood . > > > > On Jan 20, 10:27 am, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > VT, > > > > > > > Mayor had no one to drive the buses, maybe if their had > > > > > > been some National Guard to help evacuate the Poor, elderly > > > > > > and sick, you know the ones without the ability to leave without > > > > > > assistance? > > > > > > In case you weren’t aware, there ARE local, city and state government > > > > > agencies whose responsibility is to take care of their people prior to > > > > > and during a disaster. FEMA is a first responder. They are to respond > > > > > after the disaster, not before. FEMA can not be proud of how they > > > > > responded AFTER the disaster, but this bullshit attitude that somehow > > > > > it’s not the responsibility of local, city or state governments to get > > > > > their people safe beforehand is really disturbing. You’d think, since > > > > > they reviewed their evacuation plan just one year before Katrina as a > > > > > result of Ivan, that Nagin and Blanco would have understood the need > > > > > for drivers. That they didn’t have them available is a disgrace. That > > > > > you now want to lay blame for that on National Guardsmen not being > > > > > there to drive them is not only bullshit, but it’s fundamentally > > > > > wrong. That is NOT their role. > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > bush cut the funding for the SELA project to use the money in Iraq . > > > > > > which resulted in the failure of the levees killing thousands of > > > > > > Americans ! the storm did not cause very much damage to New Orleans > > > > > > the flooding from the river caused the damage . > > > > > > Bush cut funding, that is true. But the projects affected by the cuts > > > > > were only designed to sure up some weak spots, not fundamentally > > > > > change the design of the levees. The Army Corp of Engineers has made > > > > > it very clear that the levee system was not designed to withstand > > > > > anything worse than fast moving cat 3 storms. Katrina started out a > > > > > cat 5 and dropped to a cat 4 as it made landfall. The ACoE has > > > > > acknowledged that even without the cuts the levees would not have > > > > > saved the city. Is it possible some of the breaches might not have > > > > > occurred? It’s possible, but no one has gone so far as to make that > > > > > assessment. There was a full redesign project for the levee system > > > > > that was scheduled to be completed in 2015. > > > > > > In 2002, New Orleans officials held a simulation of what would happen > > > > > in a category 5 storm. Walter Maestri, the emergency coordinator of > > > > > Jefferson Parish in New Orleans , recounted the outcome to PBS’ NOW > > > > > With Bill Moyers: > > > > > > Maestri, September 2002: “Well, when the exercise was completed it was > > > > > evidence that we were going to lose a lot of people. We changed the > > > > > name of the [simulated] storm from Delaney to K-Y-A-G-B... kiss your > > > > > ass goodbye... because anybody who was here as that category five > > > > > storm came across... was gone.” > > > > > > Now, if you’re really interested in the root cause for the disaster > > > > > you might want to check out; > > > > > http://articles.latimes.com/2005/dec/25/nation/na-levee25 > > > > > There is a 20 year history of infighting and mismanagement of funds > > > > > PRIOR to Katrina. But I suspect you’re far more interested in blaming > > > > > Bush than you are in understanding the true causes of the disaster, so > > > > > I won’t hold my breath. > > > > > > It is not my intention to defend Bush or FEMA. They did some things > > > > > right but for the most part I still consider the response a failure > > > > > and at times embarrassing. But I will always argue the human toll > > > > > could have been, to a large extent, avoided had local, city and state > > > > > authorities done what they should have done and I think it’s tragic > > > > > that they’ve been given all but a free pass by those whose primary > > > > > goal is to blame Bush for everything. > > > > > > On Jan 20, 3:29 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > bush cut the funding for the SELA project to use the money in Iraq . > > > > > > which resulted in the failure of the levees killing thousands of > > > > > > Americans ! the storm did not cause very much damage to New Orleans > > > > > > the flooding from the river caused the damage . as for the slow > > > > > > response to help people in the city bush ordered Fema to stop all > > > > > > aid > > > > > > and assistance unless the Governor turned over control of the state > > > > > > to > > > > > > the federal government . > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2:46 pm, VT Sean Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > George Bush's Legacy is the Failure that was Katrina > > > > > > > This was the anatomy to all of Bush's failures. > > > > > > > > Sean Lewis > > > > > > > January 19, 2009 > > > > > > > > Katrina was a Category 5 hurricane that slowly > > > > > > > moved across the Gulf of Mexico growing in > > > > > > > size and threat. > > > > > > > > Bush was briefed on the threat and warned about > > > > > > > the possible scenarios. > > > > > > > > People were giving warnings about the threat. > > > > > > > > Authorities were requesting help from Washington > > > > > > > specifically from the White House for help to deal > > > > > > > with the threat. > > > > > > > > The world was also aware of the threat. > > > > > > > > Bush was made aware of the threat, made some > > > > > > > public statements and then did no follow through > > > > > > > to actually prepare for the threat. > > > > > > > > The threat became a reality and all that was predicted > > > > > > > and warned about occurred. > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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