Mike, you just don’t get it (or you don’t want to). And apparently, you also refuse to read. So let me post part of what you aren’t reading;
“The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's (NOAA's) official storm surge model SLOSH (Sea, Lake, and Overland Surges from Hurricanes) was developed in the late 1960s, and Leuttich and several collaborators have created a more sophisticated model called ADCIRC (Advanced Circulation) that has been adopted by the Army Corps of Engineers and other groups. Last year, in an exercise simulating a direct hit by a slow-moving category 3 hurricane, both models showed that the levees would not prevent the flooding of New Orleans.” “We asked the Corps about that “design issue.” David Hewitt, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers, said McClellan was referring to the fact that “the levees were designed for a category 3 hurricane.” He told us that, consequently, “when it became apparent that this was a category 5 hurricane, an evacuation of the city was ordered.” (A category 3 storm has sustained winds of no more than 130 miles per hour, while a category 5 storm has winds exceeding 155 miles per hour. Katrina had winds of 160 mph as it approached shore, but later weakened to winds of 140 mph as it made landfall, making it a strong category 4 storm, according to the National Hurricane Center.)” … “The levee upgrade project around Lake Pontchartrain was only 60 to 90 percent complete across most areas of New Orleans as of the end of May, according to the Corps' May 23 fact sheet. Still, even if it had been completed, the project's goal was protecting New Orleans from storm surges up to "a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane,” according to the fact sheet.” … “We don't know whether the levees would have done better had the work been completed. But the Corps says that even a completed levee project wasn't designed for the storm that actually occurred.” So, the true bottom line is that the levee system was not designed to withstand a storm surge like Katrina. Period. No one (except you) denies this. The funding Bush cut was for work to restore some of the levees that had sunk to their previous height, which would still have been insufficient to protect New Orleans. Obviously, any additional work that could have been done had funding not been cut would have helped, but when it’s unanimously agreed by those responsible for the levees that the current design, if in perfect condition, couldn’t protect against a storm like Katrina, then it’s being disingenuous to continue to insist the Bush cuts caused the disaster. As for Bush refusing aid and rescue, you might want to go back and look over the records. It was Governor Blanco who would not allow supplies from the Red Cross to be delivered to the Super Dome. On Jan 21, 2:38 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> wrote: > the bottom line is the levees failed because bush cut the funding for > their repair and maintenance ! the shelters worked just fine until the > levees failed AFTER the storm was over and in fact the storm came > ashore east of New Orleans . But even if i ignored all of the facts > and excepted your view that bush was blameless and Nagain was at fault > which i don't ! that still does not excuse bush for refusing aid and > rescue to the people of New Orleans because the Governor would not > turnover control of the State to bush . > > On Jan 20, 3:04 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Mike, > > > No, I am quoting the ACoE which has said all along the levees were > > designed for a fast moving cat 3 storm. Not my words. I had nothing to > > do with their design. And btw, I noted "fast moving cat 3" two posts > > ago, so it's not dishonesty on my part but rather your poor reading > > comprehension. > > > The fact is, Katrina was a cat 5 one day before landfall. It was so > > massive and powerful that it kicked up a cat 5 storm surge. The ACoE > > expected a storm of this size to overrun the levees, though they did > > not expect them to be breached. A simulation in 2002 predicted a storm > > the size of Katrina would devastate New Orleans. Again, this is not my > > word.. I am only paraphrasing, or quoting, depending on which post. > > > The ACoE has indicated the work impacted by the Bush cuts was not > > something that would have prevented the devastation Katrina inflicted. > > The LA Times article (link provided) gives a pretty good historical > > perspective of the 20 years leading up to Katrina. This is the genesis > > of the failure of the levee system, not the Bush cuts. I’m sure the > > Bush cuts didn’t help, but they should not be presented as the cause > > of the disaster. > > > And no, what I said was the death toll could have been significantly > > reduced had people been evacuated in a timely fashion. The city had a > > dysfunctional evacuation plan, despite a review of the plan a year > > earlier. To argue Nagin didn’t have drivers for the buses only > > enforces that the plan was dysfunctional. > > > I did not tie the death toll to the Bush cuts so I’m not sure where > > that comment is coming from. I’m saying the disaster was going to > > happen with or without the cuts, but the death toll could have been > > significantly reduced if the people had left the city before the > > storm. Pretty simple concept. > > > None of this absolves FEMA and the Bush administration’s response to > > Katrina, both before and after. I’ve been clear, fwiw, that I thought > > the response was poor and often embarrassing. I only object to those > > who try to lay all the blame on FEMA and Bush. The disaster was the > > culmination of many mistakes, starting 20 years before Katrina, and > > the blame is shared by many at all levels. > > > On Jan 20, 2:09 pm, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > so now you wish to change your claim form the levees were made for a > > > fast moving storm instead of just a storm . and the death toll would > > > been almost none if bush had not cut the funding SELA ! > > > your dishonesty is noted ! > > > On Jan 20, 12:28 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > As expected, you completely ignore everything that doesn't place blame > > > > on Bush. The storm made landfall as a strong cat 3, that is true, but > > > > the storm surge was 28-29' and typical of a cat 5. Further, the storm > > > > was massively wide and slow moving, so it battered the area for a very > > > > long time. The levees were designed to withstand a fast moving cat 3. > > > > That means a much lower storm surge and a storm that passes thru > > > > quickly. The ACoE has concluded the levee system was not designed to > > > > withstand what it was hit with. The ACoE has said the work that was > > > > affected by the Bush cuts wouldn't have made a difference. It was the > > > > reengineering project, scheduled to complete 10 years later, which was > > > > going to make a difference. I'm guessing you didn't read the article > > > > at the link I provided. Why worry about facts when anti-Bush rhetoric > > > > is much more fun. > > > > > And the death toll would have been MUCH lower had the people been > > > > evacuated properly. The best way to survive a storm is to not be there > > > > when it arrives. You ignore that because the fault for that is with > > > > Nagin and Blanco. > > > > > On Jan 20, 11:32 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > check again it was a cat three when it came through New Orleans . and > > > > > the SELA project was designed to maintain the levees which failed > > > > > because the bush administration cut the funding and the repairs were > > > > > not done ! > > > > > and even after the levees failed the death toll would have been much > > > > > less fi bush had not blocked any aid from getting to the people > > > > > trapped by the flood . > > > > > On Jan 20, 10:27 am, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > VT, > > > > > > > > Mayor had no one to drive the buses, maybe if their had > > > > > > > been some National Guard to help evacuate the Poor, elderly > > > > > > > and sick, you know the ones without the ability to leave without > > > > > > > assistance? > > > > > > > In case you weren’t aware, there ARE local, city and state > > > > > > government > > > > > > agencies whose responsibility is to take care of their people prior > > > > > > to > > > > > > and during a disaster. FEMA is a first responder. They are to > > > > > > respond > > > > > > after the disaster, not before. FEMA can not be proud of how they > > > > > > responded AFTER the disaster, but this bullshit attitude that > > > > > > somehow > > > > > > it’s not the responsibility of local, city or state governments to > > > > > > get > > > > > > their people safe beforehand is really disturbing. You’d think, > > > > > > since > > > > > > they reviewed their evacuation plan just one year before Katrina as > > > > > > a > > > > > > result of Ivan, that Nagin and Blanco would have understood the need > > > > > > for drivers. That they didn’t have them available is a disgrace. > > > > > > That > > > > > > you now want to lay blame for that on National Guardsmen not being > > > > > > there to drive them is not only bullshit, but it’s fundamentally > > > > > > wrong. That is NOT their role. > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > bush cut the funding for the SELA project to use the money in > > > > > > > Iraq . > > > > > > > which resulted in the failure of the levees killing thousands of > > > > > > > Americans ! the storm did not cause very much damage to New > > > > > > > Orleans > > > > > > > the flooding from the river caused the damage . > > > > > > > Bush cut funding, that is true. But the projects affected by the > > > > > > cuts > > > > > > were only designed to sure up some weak spots, not fundamentally > > > > > > change the design of the levees. The Army Corp of Engineers has made > > > > > > it very clear that the levee system was not designed to withstand > > > > > > anything worse than fast moving cat 3 storms. Katrina started out a > > > > > > cat 5 and dropped to a cat 4 as it made landfall. The ACoE has > > > > > > acknowledged that even without the cuts the levees would not have > > > > > > saved the city. Is it possible some of the breaches might not have > > > > > > occurred? It’s possible, but no one has gone so far as to make that > > > > > > assessment. There was a full redesign project for the levee system > > > > > > that was scheduled to be completed in 2015. > > > > > > > In 2002, New Orleans officials held a simulation of what would > > > > > > happen > > > > > > in a category 5 storm. Walter Maestri, the emergency coordinator of > > > > > > Jefferson Parish in New Orleans , recounted the outcome to PBS’ NOW > > > > > > With Bill Moyers: > > > > > > > Maestri, September 2002: “Well, when the exercise was completed it > > > > > > was > > > > > > evidence that we were going to lose a lot of people. We changed the > > > > > > name of the [simulated] storm from Delaney to K-Y-A-G-B... kiss your > > > > > > ass goodbye... because anybody who was here as that category five > > > > > > storm came across... was gone.” > > > > > > > Now, if you’re really interested in the root cause for the disaster > > > > > > you might want to check out; > > > > > > http://articles.latimes.com/2005/dec/25/nation/na-levee25 > > > > > > There is a 20 year history of infighting and mismanagement of funds > > > > > > PRIOR to Katrina. But I suspect you’re far more interested in > > > > > > blaming > > > > > > Bush than you are in understanding the true causes of the disaster, > > > > > > so > > > > > > I won’t hold my breath. > > > > > > > It is not my intention to defend Bush or FEMA. They did some things > > > > > > right but for the most part I still consider the response a failure > > > > > > and at times embarrassing. But I will always argue the human toll > > > > > > could have been, to a large extent, avoided had local, city and > > > > > > state > > > > > > authorities done what they should have done and I think it’s tragic > > > > > > that they’ve been given all but a free pass by those whose primary > > > > > > goal is to blame Bush for everything. > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 3:29 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > bush cut the funding for the SELA project to use the money in > > > > > > > Iraq . > > > > > > > which resulted in the failure of the levees killing thousands of > > > > > > > Americans ! the storm did not cause very much damage to New > > > > > > > Orleans > > > > > > > the flooding from the river caused the damage . as for the slow > > > > > > > response to help people in the city bush ordered Fema to stop all > > > > > > > aid > > > > > > > and assistance unless the Governor turned over control of the > > > > > > > state to > > > > > > > the federal government . > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2:46 pm, VT Sean Lewis <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > George Bush's Legacy is the Failure that was Katrina > > > > > > > > This was the anatomy to all of Bush's failures. > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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