Outrage over what ?, something the world as a whole has successfully dealt with for YEARS without torture and lies ?? without imprisoning sans trial ?? without breaking international (or their own ) laws ??
Yeah, right.....outrageous is more the term. On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:31 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sad to see you have little sympathy for outrage. > > On May 15, 6:24�pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > And those that retaliated should have stood before the bar for their > > actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:21 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > That isn't true. When some saw what the Japs had done to our men in > > > the Pacific Theater they retaliated. Same in Germany. > > > > > On May 15, 6:04 pm, Hollywood <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > rigs, > > > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Americans have an obligation to > > > > obey American law, our troops are required to obey the UCMJ. What the > > > > hell does what terrorist do have to do with our laws? > > > > There ARE agreements for the conduct of war, called the Geneva > > > > Conventions. So have the U.S. Congress declare are on SOMEBODY. > > > > > > On May 15, 5:42 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Where was it? Ramallah (sp?) where two Israeli soldiers strayed and > > > > > were literally torn apart? Parties involved have to agree on terms. > > > > > > > On May 14, 9:16 am, Hollywood <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > rigs, > > > > > > > > Why should they? It's the AMERICAN Civil Liberties Union. BTW, > what > > > > > > does the ACLU have to do with this post? > > > > > > The concern here is breaking AMERICAN criminal laws and the UCMJ. > > > > > > > > On May 14, 7:31 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I doubt al queda debates the bs of the ACLU. > > > > > > > > > On May 14, 7:26 am, VT VirtualTruth <[email protected] > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nothing yet from the Bush torture apologists? > > > > > > > > > > I guess Rush hasn't told them what to think yet..... > > > > > > > > > > On May 13, 9:03 pm, VT VirtualTruth < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The excuses, the rationalizations, the lies all of this to > > > avoid > > > > > > > > > war crime trials for torture, torture that a SUCCESSFUL > > > interogator > > > > > > > > > swore under oath, did not work! > > > > > > > > > > > OH and the CIA interogator who said that water boarding DID > > > > > > > > > break Abu Zubaydah in seconds, recanted his statement, it > > > appears > > > > > > > > > not only wasn't he present but he was mistaken about what > he > > > was > > > > > > > > > told! > > > > > > > > > > > On May 13, 8:09 pm, VT Sean Lewis < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsh interrogation techniques ineffective,' former FBI > agent > > > > > > > > > > testifies > > > > > > > > > > > > By WARREN P. STROBEL > > > > > > > > > > McClatchy Newspapers > > > > > > > > > > A former FBI special agent who interrogated senior > al-Qaida > > > captives > > > > > > > > > > told the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday that > harsh > > > > > > > > > > interrogation techniques are "ineffective, slow and > > > unreliable," and > > > > > > > > > > disputed claims by former Vice President Dick Cheney and > > > others that > > > > > > > > > > they helped uncover major terrorist plots. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ali Soufan, a veteran FBI investigator, said that CIA > > > officials and > > > > > > > > > > others responsible for the extreme measures inflated the > > > program's > > > > > > > > > > successes and downplayed the consequences of physical > abuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > "The situation was, and remains, too risky to allow > someone > > > to > > > > > > > > > > experiment with amateurish, Hollywood-style interrogation > > > methods that > > > > > > > > > > in reality taints sources, risks outcomes, ignores the > end > > > game and > > > > > > > > > > diminishes our moral high ground," Soufan said. > > > > > > > > > > > > "It was one of the worst and most harmful decisions made > in > > > our > > > > > > > > > > efforts against al-Qaida," he said. > > > > > > > > > > > > Former State Department official Philip Zelikow, who in > 2005 > > > was > > > > > > > > > > Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's point man in a > battle > > > to > > > > > > > > > > overhaul the Bush administration's detention and > > > interrogation > > > > > > > > > > policies, joined Soufan in criticizing the use of > techniques > > > such as > > > > > > > > > > waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning that's widely > > > considered > > > > > > > > > > torture. > > > > > > > > > > > > Zelikow said the U.S. could combat terrorism without > > > resorting to > > > > > > > > > > extreme methods. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Others may disagree," he said. "The government, and the > > > country, > > > > > > > > > > needs to decide whether they are right. If they are > right, > > > our laws > > > > > > > > > > must change, and our country must change. I think they > are > > > wrong." > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheney has argued that the now-defunct CIA program, which > > > included a > > > > > > > > > > global network of secret prisons, produced valuable > > > intelligence that > > > > > > > > > > thwarted terror attacks and saved American lives. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheney, who's scheduled to give a major speech on the > subject > > > next > > > > > > > > > > week at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative > > > Washington > > > > > > > > > > policy organization, has called for the release of two > > > classified CIA > > > > > > > > > > memos that he says detail the program's successes. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., a member of the > Senate > > > Judiciary > > > > > > > > > > and Intelligence committees, said he's seen the two > documents > > > and they > > > > > > > > > > don't prove Cheney's case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Soufan's testimony apparently was the first public > appraisal > > > by a > > > > > > > > > > senior U.S. government interrogator who dealt directly > with > > > suspected > > > > > > > > > > terrorists in CIA custody. > > > > > > > > > > > > It came a month after President Barack Obama released > four > > > Bush-era > > > > > > > > > > Justice Department legal memos justifying methods that > > > included > > > > > > > > > > confinement boxes, sleep deprivation and slamming > detainees > > > into > > > > > > > > > > walls. That reopened the debate over whether top Bush > > > officials should > > > > > > > > > > be investigated and prosecuted for their actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding to the drama, Soufan testified from behind a > screen > > > where the > > > > > > > > > > senators, but not the audience, could see him. Since at > least > > > one > > > > > > > > > > photo of Soufan is available on the Internet, the reason > for > > > the > > > > > > > > > > security measures wasn't readily apparent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., who's also an Air Force > Reserve > > > lawyer, > > > > > > > > > > said the Bush administration erred in its reading of the > law > > > but > > > > > > > > > > argued that harsh interrogation techniques sometimes > produce > > > valuable > > > > > > > > > > information. > > > > > > > > > > > > He challenged Soufan to dispute that. > > > > > > > > > > > > "I can only speak to my experience," the former FBI agent > > > replied. > > > > > > > > > > > > "That's the point, isn't it?" Graham retorted. > > > > > > > > > > > > Soufan was a lead FBI interrogator of Abu Zubaydah, one > of > > > the first > > > > > > > > > > major al-Qaida figures to be captured after the Sept. 11, > > > 2001, > > > > > > > > > > terrorist attacks. The initial interrogation of Zubaydah, > > > using the > > > > > > > > > > bureau's traditional, rapport-building techniques, > yielded > > > valuable > > > > > > > > > > intelligence, including the role of Khalid Sheikh > Mohammed as > > > the > > > > > > > > > > mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, he said. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then-CIA director George Tenet congratulated the > > > interrogators - until > > > > > > > > > > he learned that they were from the FBI, not the CIA, > Soufan > > > said. A > > > > > > > > > > team from the CIA's Counterterrorism Center that included > a > > > government > > > > > > > > > > contractor quickly replaced him and his colleagues. They > > > introduced > > > > > > > > > > harsh interrogation techniques, and Zubaydah's > cooperation > > > stopped, > > > > > > > > > > Soufan said. > > > > > > > > > > > > After complaints from officials in Washington about the > > > dried-up > > > > > > > > > > intelligence flow, Soufan and colleagues reverted to the > > > traditional > > > > > > > > > > approach, and Zubaydah began talking again. > > > > > > > > > > > > To bolster the Democrats' case against torture, Sen. > Sheldon > > > > > > > > > > Whitehouse, D-R.I., released summaries of Soufan's > > > interrogations of > > > > > > > > > > another al-Qaida figure, Abu Jandal, who was a bodyguard > to > > > Osama bin > > > > > > > > > > Laden. Without being tortured, Jandal divulged intimate > > > details and > > > > > > > > > > personal histories of bin Laden's inner circle, the 100 > pages > > > of > > > > > > > > > > documents appear to show. > > > > > > > > > > > > The hearing took place amid an escalating political > fracas > > > over what > > > > > > > > > > congressional Democrats knew at the time about the CIA > > > program. > > > > > > > > > > Republicans say that documents call into question House > > > Speaker Nancy > > > > > > > > > > Pelosi's contention that she wasn't briefed about > > > waterboarding. > > > > > > > > > > > > Zelikow called the CIA program "a collective failure, in > > > which a > > > > > > > > > > number of officials and members of Congress (and > staffers), > > > of both > > > > > > > > > > parties, played a part." > > > > > > > > > > > > Zelikow wrote a classified February 2006 memo challenging > the > > > legal > > > > > > > > > > reasoning of the Justice Department's Office of Legal > > > Counsel. The > > > > > > > > > > White House responded by ordering copies of the memo > > > destroyed, but > > > > > > > > > > Zelikow said his six-page document has been retrieved > from > > > State > > > > > > > > > > Department files and is undergoing declassification > review. > > > > >http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/v-print/story/1047093.html > > > > > > > > > > > > The Senate Judiciary Committee hearing: > > > > http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=3842-Hidequotedtext- > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > -- > > Mark M. Kahle, ... > > > > read more �- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- Mark M. 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