Again, you miss the points made as you are all wrapped up in semantics and phraseology without bothering to hear the point made.
In a nutshell: Government is NOT a cure for any social ailments. It has NEVER solved a single social problem. It has never solved a single problem. Health care and access to it ARE social ailments. There is no "perfect" system". Someone will always be left out. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 7:28 PM, LimboIndo <[email protected]> wrote: > > We are debating the need for health care reform based on health care. > Not government waste, not government corruption, not crooked > politicians, not if it rains too much in Seattle. > > As I've said before please argue if we need health care reform based > on our current health care system. If there is a need, then the means > to address it must be discussed. If you think our health care system > is fine the way it is, I would ask you why you thought so. It costs > more than any other place in the world, it is no better than average > based on rankings of World Health Orginizations, and its current lack > of universal coverage potentially exposes the broader population to > epidemics. Not to mention a healthier work force is better for our > economy. > > > *Not directed at you frank, but I wish everyone would look up two very > important terms: "Red Herring, and Straw Man" > > Please stop making these types of arguments, they are fallacious in > there composition and not valid. Please make valid arguments. > > On Oct 1, 8:14 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Surely you don't think that the Government does not commit wasteful > spending? > > > > Of course not and that's the point. Fraud and waste are not going away > > anytime soon. Too many people who make policy have their hands in the > > cookie jar. Yet you fail to account for this when you argue; "If we > > can get everyone Health Care without more taxes, without healthcare > > quality going down and without healthcare costs going up, what is the > > problem?" At the end of the day you guys keep forgetting *someone* has > > to pay for this. If you think the government will be able to achieve > > healthcare nirvana without raising taxes then I have a bridge to sell > > you. > > > > On Oct 1, 3:40 pm, LimboIndo <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Fraud and waste, emphasis on waste. Surely you don't think that the > > > Government does not commit wasteful spending? Why haven't they done it > > > yet? Who knows? Most likely Politicians afraid to rock the boat and > > > stop pandering to swing voters, or politicians with millions or > > > hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign donations from insurance/ > > > medical companies (like most of the ones trying to the block the > > > reform). > > > > > On Oct 1, 12:45 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > If we can get > > > > > everyone Health Care without more taxes, without healthcare quality > > > > > going down and without healthcare costs going up, what is the > problem? > > > > > > Sounds great, now prove it can be done. The CBO doesn’t seem to think > > > > it will work. Common sense says it won’t work. A significant portion > > > > of the funding supposedly will come from the elimination of fraud and > > > > waste in the current system. Exactly how that will be done is still a > > > > black box secret and one that most believe can’t be done. And if it > > > > can be done, why isn’t it being done today? After all, the biggest > > > > single complaint with the current system is cost, and if you can > > > > eliminate fraud and waste you can reduce cost. > > > > > > On Oct 1, 12:16 pm, LimboIndo <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > In response to Plain'ol > > > > > > > It depends on what you mean by "efficient?" It is dangerous to > confuse > > > > > "efficiency" with "what is best for the American people." > > > > > > > In response to MJ-- > > > > > > > What reforms have Government instituted thus far? This is the first > > > > > proposal of a major (emphasis major)reform of health care > instituted > > > > > by the Government that has ever been proposed, to my knowledge. > > > > > > > In response to the snippet about socialist, government etc... > > > > > It would appear Mr. Bastiat confuses a Democratic Society and any > > > > > other Society. In Democracy the people are the government. > > > > > > > And it seems both of you have danced around the question. "If we > can > > > > > get > > > > > everyone Health Care without more taxes, without healthcare quality > > > > > going down and without healthcare costs going up, what is the > > > > > problem?" > > > > > > > If there is no problem with the ideal, then we need to work on the > > > > > details of how to implement it. If you do have a problem with the > > > > > ideal, then your problem might be larger than you suspect. > > > > > > > On Oct 1, 9:06 am, "M. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > LimboIndo > > > > > > But is healthcare reform the right thing to do for our > country? > > > > > > > > MJ > > > > > > You presume that Government -- who gave us 'reform' after > > > > > > 'reform' after 'reform' that put us *in* this mess in the first > > > > > > place -- is the appropriate facilitator for this so-called > 'reform'. > > > > > > > > Unless Government 'reform' involves a wholesale 'repeal', > > > > > > then the answer is definitively ... No. > > > > > > > > Regard$, > > > > > > --MJ > > > > > > > > Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, > > > > > > confuses the distinction between government and society. > > > > > > As a result of this, every time we object to a thing > > > > > > being done by government, the socialists conclude that > > > > > > we object to its being done at all. -- Frédéric Bastiat- Hide > quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- Mark M. Kahle, , www.filacoffee.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. 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