No, @Raul, I was answering Bill's question re OS X features. The "proper" design for OS X isn't fit for Windows -- and vice-versa. You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to know this is (-was) intentional on the part of M$. Remember the "look and feel" lawsuit?
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 3:55 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm not quite following your argument, Ian. > > It seems to me that if all windows owned by the JQt app must all have > the same menu that this forbids user-defined menus. > > Is that really what you are saying J should be doing? > > Thanks, > > -- > Raul > > > On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >> @Bill >> >>> Is this behavior (sharing menu) a feature of osx in general? >> >> Yes, definitely. >> >> In OS X the menubar belongs to the app. Not to the window, as in >> MSWin. At least it did when I was programming the Mac in C in the 80s >> / 90s. >> >> Most commercial apps for the Mac, e.g. Firefox, TextEdit, Microsoft >> Word, let you create a new window with ⌘N. E.g to edit a second >> document. All such windows share the same menubar but window-specific >> menu items (⌘C, ⌘V …) work only on the topmost (=active) window. >> There's generally a "Window" menu, listing all open windows – the >> active window is shown checked: (√). Of course there are apps which >> only ever show one window. What the menubar applies-to is never in >> doubt. >> >> J602 doesn't obey the rules. Thus: if you launch the Plot package, it >> makes a separate window, but when you click on that window – the >> menubar vanishes, leaving only the Apple-supplied menus ("Apple" and >> "J"). I guess Plot is pretending to be an independent app? >> >> By contrast, JQt does obey the rules - up to a point. All windows >> owned by JQt, even user-created ones, share the same menubar. However >> the Edit and Term windows chop-and-change menus between them (a big >> no-no - you should gray them out, not make them vanish.) That totally >> bamboozled me, until I worked out what it was playing at. I was >> discovering menu items one day and not finding them the next. >> >> The basic model is that when an app (e.g. DreamWeaver) lets you work >> on either a picture or text, say, these aren't 2 different sorts of >> window. They're one-and-the-same sort of window, adapted to picture or >> text, inapplicable menu items like "Rotate" or "Spelling" being >> grayed-out. The menubar is owned by the app, as I said, and is >> therefore common to all windows. Apart from J, all Mac apps I've seen >> follow this basic model. >> >> Qt, being cross-platform, is a law unto itself, it seems. >> >> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:51 AM, bill lam <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Is this behavior (sharing menu) a feature of osx in general? >>> On Sep 14, 2015 5:17 AM, "Ian Clark" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> @Chris >>>> >>>> > Does your repaint include some computation that could have been done up >>>> front? >>>> >>>> It's TABULA. Judged superficially, yes. The toolbar is painted >>>> laboriously pixel by pixel, also it's animated. A speedup would be to >>>> take a snapshot of the isidraw and use that instead. But it is >>>> (planned to be) reconfigurable by the user, so I don't want to get >>>> into speedups just yet. Particularly as I'm now badly equipped for >>>> cross-platform testing. >>>> >>>> > How did you do that? >>>> >>>> Currently a t-table carries free-form info that's displayed in the >>>> "Info" tab. It's good in practice to have that optionally in a >>>> separate window, so it can be left visible while interacting with the >>>> main form, and I've done just that. >>>> >>>> But when the "Info" window has the focus, instead of the menubar >>>> disappearing and being replaced by something vestigial, I can still >>>> see the main form's menus. And they all work. >>>> >>>> TABULA also optionally creates a "plot" window – and the same remarks >>>> apply. Bill thinks it's a bug not a feature. But jwplot wouldn't be so >>>> useful within an app if it hid the app's menus. >>>> >>>> > I suppose we should allow redefining the menubar on the fly. >>>> >>>> I guess most J coders won't need the facility to reconfigure a menu >>>> after every user interaction. Only people like me, trying to write >>>> professional-looking cross-platform software. Perhaps I simply >>>> shouldn't be using Jwd, but working directly with Qt widgets? I can't >>>> be far short of my 100th GUI. >>>> >>>> wd 'set menuitem text "New Caption" ' -would be nice. But destroying >>>> and rewriting the whole menubar ought to be fast enough. It is >>>> intuitive (using rplc) and totally flexible. >>>> >>>> Ian >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 3:25 PM, chris burke <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> My form takes a noticeable time to repaint. I don't want to do that. >>>> > >>>> > I am a little surprised by this. Does your repaint include some >>>> computation >>>> > that could have been done up front? >>>> > >>>> >> But I see with JQt it's possible to define two separate forms for the >>>> same >>>> > app. If one of them specifies no menus, it lets you see the menus of the >>>> > other form – even when it's got focus! >>>> > >>>> > How did you do that? >>>> > >>>> > I suppose we should allow redefining the menubar on the fly. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 13 September 2015 at 05:32, Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> My form takes a noticeable time to repaint. I don't want to do that. >>>> >> >>>> >> But I see with JQt it's possible to define two separate forms for the >>>> >> same app. If one of them specifies no menus, it lets you see the menus >>>> >> of the other form – even when it's got focus! At least, it does on the >>>> >> Mac (…under Snow Leopard). >>>> >> >>>> >> I conjecture it's possible to split my form into a menu-less and a >>>> >> menus-only form. The latter will be a lot less pain to recreate – and >>>> >> easily reconfigured like this: >>>> >> >>>> >> wd MYMENUSONLY rplc 'Repeat Last Action' ; 'Repeat "Delete Line"' >>>> >> >>>> >> The same trick will let me offer an up-to-the-minute MRU list attached >>>> >> to the File menu. >>>> >> >>>> >> Maybe there are gotchers. Maybe it won't work on all platforms. But >>>> >> it's worth me doing some experiments. Anyone care to try it with >>>> >> MSWin? (I can see a sticky "fellow traveller" being needed for the >>>> >> main window, consisting only of a menubar.) >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 2:49 AM, chris burke <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> > You can create a new form to replace the old, positioning exactly over >>>> >> the >>>> >> > old. This should happen fast enough to be unnoticeable. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I cannot think of examples in J8, but this was done in J6, for example >>>> >> with >>>> >> > the Find and Replace dialogs. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 11 September 2015 at 15:56, bill lam <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> >> I think these functions are not implemented. >>>> >> >> On Sep 12, 2015 4:50 AM, "Ian Clark" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> > With jwd in JQt, how do I change the text of a given item in an >>>> >> >> > existing set of menus? >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > E.g. to state precisely what action I'm offering to Undo / Repeat / >>>> >> etc? >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > An allied problem is to add items to an existing menu, e.g. to >>>> provide >>>> >> >> > a MRU facility. >>>> >> >> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >> >> > For information about J forums see >>>> >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >> >> For information about J forums see >>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >> >> >>>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >> > For information about J forums see >>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >> >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
