It does sound like a few lines of clarification are in order for the "atop" page. I'm saying this rather than editing the wiki, as I would normally do, since it sounds like this group has thought about it much more than I have and Hauke seems to have material with which to update the page.
On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 2:57 PM Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote: > After sleeping on this... > > It's worth pointing out that the > https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/partsofspeech.htm page does > list the parts of speech for each primitive, and does link to > dictb.htm for verbs. > > That's easy for newcomers to overlook and easy for experts to have > forgotten about, so it is a bit weak in that sense, which led to our > current discussion. > > That said: NuVoc suffers similarly, and its sprawling layout seems to > me to be more difficult to scan (and, for example, seems to claim that > 5!:0 is a verb). The original dictionary treatment -- with key data > at the top and examples further down is much easier to cope with than > the NuVoc approach where key reference information is frequently lower > on the page than examples. (And, I do not know if a complete rebuild > of NuVoc to restore some dictionary structures would be acceptable or > would be considered too disruptive to the current efforts). > > Thanks, > > -- > Raul > > On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 1:53 AM Henry Rich <henryhr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > You are right. There are several places where the Dictionary is > incorrect > > or incomplete. To preserve the speed and style of the Dictionary, we > > decided to leave it as is. NuVoc Is now the official definition of the > > language. > > > > Henry Rich > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 11:31 PM Elijah Stone <elro...@elronnd.net> wrote: > > > > > I don't know if there is anything to be gained by rehashing this > argument, > > > as I failed in the past, but I will try one more time: > > > > > > The dictionary states that x u@v y may be substituted for u x v y. In > > > fact, x u@v y may not be freely substituted for u x v y, because there > > > are cases where such a substitution would change semantics. > > > > > > That the dictionary states something incorrect is a bug in it. > > > > > > On Mon, 27 Jun 2022, Raul Miller wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 3:30 PM 'Pascal Jasmin' via Programming > > > > <programm...@jsoftware.com> wrote: > > > >> You have brought up a bug in dicitionary, that has survived to J6.02 > > > > > > > > Is a characteristic a bug if it's by design? > > > > > > > > The dictionary writeup on verbs -- > > > > https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dictb.htm -- describes the > > > > features of verbs which are common to all verbs. This is information > > > > which would need to be repeated on every dictionary page for the > > > > dictionary to completely describe the characteristics of those verbs > > > > on each page. (And, venturing partially into this territory is why > > > > NuVoc pages tend to be rather long.) > > > > > > > > Anyways, this writeup on verbs includes this text: > > > > > > > > "Finally, each verb has three intrinsic ranks: monadic, left, and > > > > right. The definition of any verb need specify only its behaviour on > > > > cells of the intrinsic ranks, and the extension to arguments of > higher > > > > rank occurs systematically. The ranks of a verb merely place upper > > > > limits on the ranks of the cells to which it applies; its domain may > > > > include arguments of lower rank." > > > > > > > > That said, I think that each of the dictionary's verb pages should > > > > explicitly state that the verb is a verb, and that statement should > > > > link back to this dictb.htm which details what a verb is. > > > > > > > > In other words, where > > > > https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/d620.htm currently has: > > > > > > > > <table width=100%><tr> > > > > <td align=left width=33%><b><font size=+2>Atop</font></b></td> > > > > <td align=center width=50%><font face="Courier New" size=+3>u@v > > > > mv lv rv</font></td> > > > > <td align=right width=17%><b><font size=+2></font></b> > > > > </tr></table> > > > > > > > > I think it should have something like: > > > > > > > > <table width=100%><tr> > > > > <td align=left width=23%><b><font size=+2>Atop</font></b></td> > > > > <td align=left width=10%><a href="dictb.htm">verb</a></td> > > > > <td align=center width=50%><font face="Courier New" size=+3>u@v > > > > mv lv rv</font></td> > > > > <td align=right width=17%><b><font size=+2></font></b> > > > > </tr></table> > > > > > > > > ... and all of the other dictionary pages describing primitives > should > > > > have a similar reference link. > > > > > > > > And, that said, note that I am focusing here on utility rather than > > > > appearance -- someone with more of an eye towards appearance may be > > > > able to take this general approach and come up with something more > > > > appealing which: > > > > > > > > (*) Explicitly states, in the definition, the type of word being > > > defined, and > > > > (*) Links that type statement to the corresponding page which spells > > > > out what this means in the context of the language definition. > > > > > > > > And... that said... the omission of this kind of detail could be > > > > considered a bug (though there's probably a better way of describing > > > > this kind of problem). > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Raul > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- Devon McCormick, CFA Quantitative Consultant ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
