On 2/3/2024 5:02 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:
Every trainer, in any field, has to deal with these problems - all the
time, and over-and-over.
On 4/02/24 06:58, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
In my view this whole thread became murky and complicated because the
OP did not write down the requirements for the program. Requirements
are needed to communicate with other people. An individual may not
need to actually write down the requirements - depending on their
complexity - but they always exist even if only vaguely in a person's
mind. The requirements may include what tools or languages the person
wants to use and why.
If you are asking for help, you need to communicate the requirements
to the people you are asking for help from.
The OP may have thought the original post(s) contained enough of the
requirements but as we know by now, they didn't.
There is another possible interpretation in such situations (not
necessarily this one): that the person is fixated on a particular
solution (and unable/unwilling to adjust his/her thinking to consider
more widely).
Thus, the question is not: 'here's an entire problem, how can it be
solved', but more: 'I have a solution, and want help to implement it
(and only it) just-so'.
The latter is an interesting psychology:
1
an experienced person who is trying to translate from one tool to
another (Python), but discovers that a word-for-word solution is
difficult because of the artificial-constraints they've placed on the
situation.
2
a beginner who doesn't know what (s)he doesn't know and comes-up with an
idea, but fails to appreciate that there is likely more than one path to
the goal.
The person asking for help may not realize they don't know enough to
write down all the requirements; an effort to do so may bring that
lack to visibility.
In the case of 'Beginners' this should probably be taken-as-read!
Which is why we will always find ourselves asking questions or 'please
give more information'...
However, there are other reasons, eg corporate concerns or personality;
why people don't want to give more information. The former is reasonable
(have suffered from same myself). The latter may reveal that the person
is 'difficult to deal with'...
Mailing lists like these have a drawback that it's hard to impossible
for someone not involved in a thread to learn anything general from
it. We can write over and over again to please state clearly what you
want to do and where the sticking points are, but newcomers post new
questions without ever reading these pleas. Then good-hearted people
who want to be helpful end up spending a lot of time trying to guess
what is actually being asked for, and maybe never find out with enough
clarity. Others take a guess and then spend time working up a
solution that may or may not be on target.
So please! before posting a request for help, write down the
requirements as best you can figure them out, and then make sure that
they are expressed such that the readers can understand.
Unfortunately, if the person doesn't understand the problem (leave-aside
any ideas of solution), then (s)he will not be able to clearly
communicate same to us, in any way, shape, or form...
Which brings one to the question: if a person cannot express the problem
clearly and completely, is (s)he suited to development work? If the
problem is not understood, could 'the solution' ever be more than an
exercise in hope?
(prototyping and experimentation aside)
Pairs programming can be fun and productive, if you are lucky to have
the right person to work with. I've had one person like that over the
years.
Yes, it is frustrating to invest time and effort in helping someone,
only for same to disappear 'into a black hole'. The lack of response
seems to indicate a lack of respect or appreciation. Is this perhaps
part of today's "consumer" life-style, where so few are contributors or
creators?
On the other side of that coin: do the people who make assumptions and
(kindly) blaze-ahead with 'a solution', actually help the conversation?
If the assumptions are correct, yes! What if they are not?
...and don't get me started on folk who want us to do their
training-assignments or build some application, for them!
As a slight aside: on one training-course DiscussionList/BulletinBoard
set-up, if a trainee asked a question without a descriptive
title/SubjectLine, eg "Python not working" or "Urgent: please help"; I
asked them to re-post with a title that would help others in a similar
situation find the topic - and closed the original thread.
Some found it "brutal" - probably skewing towards those who felt
"Urgent" because they'd left things too close to deadline. Others joined
the (later) thread because they could identify the topic and realise
their interest in learning or contributing to the conversation...
Time pressures lead to a multitude of evils!
There's a quotation that goes something like "the poor will be with your
always"?
(?possibly Biblical)
Whether we (here) are talking about 'poor' manners, 'poor'
understanding, 'poor' communication skills, 'poor' Python knowledge, or
whatever; isn't such one of the rationales for this DiscussionList?
That said, we're all volunteering our (valuable) time!
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