On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 4:33 PM Jack Jansen <jack.jan...@cwi.nl> wrote:
> it still isn't clear to me _why_ you wouldn’t want to use a framework > build… > on a personal level, it's because the conda folks really want to use a plain vanilla unix build -- and I want things to work with conda. As to why conda wants to do that, my thoughts: conda manages not just Python, but also a full set of other libraries, and even other languages (R, Julia, Java). In that way, it's a bit like homebrew or macports. However, It also tries to be as platform-neutral as possible, so anything that works one way on conda works that same way on all platforms. And in practice, it solves a LOT of problems, problems that were a pain in the neck for years on the Mac. Also in practice, treating OS-X as "just another unix" works quite well in almost all ways -- there are a few addicted here than there, though those are mostly about clang than OS-X per se. But most things "just work". > The whole exercise feels a bit like discussions from 15 years ago, with > Unix wizards who wanted MacOS to behave as if it was plain vanilla Unix > without all the things Apple changed. And that is much less true today than > it was then… > Another practical consideration is that the vast majority of Python developers that use Macs use them like a Unix system: data analysis, web development, etc, etc. It's only desktop GUI software that poses any issues, and this is the only issue (that I know of) for that. There was an experiment with using a Framework build in conda a while back -- it immediately ran into the issue that it would be incompatible with all existing conda-python packages, so that's not good. It could be that that could be addressed with appropriate symlinks, but not one did a thorough testing. Another issue is that conda now supports platform-independent Python packages -- and that would get a lot harder with a Framework build. (though again, maybe a full set of links could solve that) It's also the case that using a Framework build inside conda buys us absolutely nothing -- it just makes things gratuitously different from the other *nix systems for no gain. I appreciate the idea of frameworks, but a) I don't think Frameworks were really designed for things like python anyway, and b) conda is solving all the problems that Frameworks solve but -- in a different, and platform independent way. In short: building python as a framework in conda would create an incompatibility with no gain. The only reason to do it would be to get the "pythonw" executable, and that doesn't actually require a Framework -- "just" some new build scripts. Anyway, if the folks that want this do the work, it looks like it can happen, and if not, then I guess we won't get it. Fair enough. -Chris On 18-Jan-2021, at 18:38 , Christopher Barker <python...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 1:34 AM Ronald Oussoren <ronaldousso...@mac.com> > wrote: > >> As mentioned on python-dev adding the “pythonw” functionality to the unix >> build is not very hard. I expect that integrating with the build system >> (Makefile/configure script) will be the hardest part due to introducing >> different behaviour for the macOS platform. >> > > Thanks Ronald, that confirms my suspicions that this is really an autoconf > issue. Which makes it an utter mystery to me :-( > >> And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that >> the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework. >> >> The framework build does not have a workaround for these problems, it has >> a proper solution ;-). >> > > Glad to hear that -- in earlier conversations, I got the impression that > you thought the executable wrapper was kind of a hack :-). > > Anyway -- if any of you have autoconf expertise and the inclination, I'd > love to see this get done, and would be glad to help as best I can. > > -CHB > > -- > Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) > > Python Language Consulting > - Teaching > - Scientific Software Development > - Desktop GUI and Web Development > - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython > > > -- > > Jack Jansen, <jack.jan...@cwi.nl>, http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman > > > > -- Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) Python Language Consulting - Teaching - Scientific Software Development - Desktop GUI and Web Development - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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