I experienced the 'third design flaw' Max cites here whilst using Touring canti's and found it very frustrating. It limited my pad choice to very thin non-cartridge pads and choice of rims wider than 17mm inner width. I nearly ground off the extra lip that creates the pad/brake arm interference but instead just sold them. I've been much happier with the modern Shimano CX50/CX70 design and find it much more practical in every way.
On Sunday, 15 October 2023 at 14:11:00 UTC-7 Max S wrote: > I'll also chime in to say that Paul brakes have some advantageous features > (e.g., continuous spring tension adjustability), but also some features > that I find infuriating in actual use, and a few instances of downright > poor mechanical design. > One design flaw is the fully threaded mounting bolt on the Racer, which I > discussed in a slightly geeky thread on iBOB / with Mark Bulgier. It places > a stress riser precisely at the root, front of fork crown, where it should > be avoided at all costs. Perhaps the grade of the steel is above and beyond > what's been used in the past, but it would fail scrutiny in a basic > mechanical design class. > Another flaw has to do with using a separate steel sleeve fitting over the > canti stud. It puts the brake further out than it needs to, and the problem > it's presumably attempting to solve (warped studs, bearing corrosion?..) > creates problems with mounting in the first place, and is avoided entirely > by brass bushings on the majority of other brakes. I've encountered > problems mounting them on two frames, and a third frame I bought had one > VERY firmly stuck on the stud... Haven't had this issue with any of the > nearly two dozen conventional canti / V brakes I've used. > A third design flaw, IME, is the extra lip on the brake arm, forward of > and at 90% to the brake pad mounting hole, which limits how close the pad > can sit in the outboard direction. When trying to use this brake on bikes > with slightly narrower canti stud placement (which are good, from the > standpoint of minimizing pad dive), this extra lip creates rim clearance > problems. > But hey, you can get them in lots of colors, and they're US-made, and > they're made by an independent small shop, and they're a way to show you > care about your bike, which I do in plenty of other ways myself... And the > vast majority of us will not use them to the limit anyway. > > I do like their brake levers, though! > > - Max > > On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 4:12:22 PM UTC-4 wboe...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Cost was a significant part of my argument, for sure. Also, Zestes will >> work with the normal spring anchors on most posts. I am not a fan of >> Paul's spring solution - it's tidy but I found it finicky to adjust (and >> keep adjusted) on the one set of minimotos I owned. That said, the Zeste >> brakes are non-trivial to install. Took me an hour to do the first but was >> slightly quicker with the second set. >> >> Will >> >> On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 4:06:41 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote: >> >>> And!!! Zests are half the price of Pauls! >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 2:05 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> IME the problem with the Tektros wasn't the stopping power but the >>>> sloppy pivots. They stopped about as well as the Pauls but they squealed >>>> and juddered. The Pauls are machined much more precisely and don't squeal >>>> at all or judder as much. >>>> >>>> On my bike, the Pauls are no worse than any other cantilever I've used >>>> but their braking power is hardly beyond ordinary; the high end forged >>>> single pivot on my gofast road fixed gear gives more retardation per >>>> amount >>>> of hand squeeze than the Touring on the front of my errand road bike or >>>> the >>>> Neo Retro in back. Ditto for any number of single pivots, dual pivots, >>>> centerpulls, not to mention disks and V brakes. >>>> >>>> I wish I'd known about the Zests before I bought Pauls. Perhaps they >>>> would have been more powerful. >>>> >>>> Still, the Pauls are beautifully made, so very easy to set up, and >>>> perfectly functional, tho' I think they are more industrial looking that >>>> elegant. Overall, taking all with all, I'm not unhappy. >>>> >>>> BUT! I will be very interested to hear others' comparison of the Zests >>>> with Pauls; or of other cantilevers wtih Pauls. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 12:21 PM Will Boericke <wboe...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's not surprising to me that Pauls would be better than the 720s. I >>>>> know they (Tektro 720s) have a dedicated following; I can't understand >>>>> why. In my experience, they were mediocre stoppers, replaced quickly by >>>>> Shimano CX70s and then by mini-Vs. >>>>> >>>>> I just replaced some budget Shimano cantis on my commuter with Velo >>>>> Orange Zeste brakes and they're amazing. For the $70 I paid, miraculous >>>>> even. Hard to imagine that Pauls would be better. >>>>> >>>>> Will >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 5:03:24 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I swapped Tektro C 720s for Paul cantis, Touring in the rear, Neo >>>>>> Retro in front, after I experienced severe squeal and judder in the >>>>>> front >>>>>> with the Tektros. The bike in question is a 58 cm c-c built for 26"/559 >>>>>> mm >>>>>> bsd wheels, so the steerer is hugely long. >>>>>> >>>>>> I got the Tektros to work sufficiently well by toeing them in at an >>>>>> absurd angle, but the Pauls (using the same salmon pads) stop a wee bit >>>>>> better, with normal toe in, and judder in front is reduced to a fugitive >>>>>> whisper. And of course the Pauls are so easy to set up. >>>>>> >>>>>> Are the Pauls worth 5X the Tektros? IMO, the Tektros look better -- >>>>>> more svelte, more shiny, at least when you remove the logo (tho' the >>>>>> careful engineering and quality materials of the Pauls have their own >>>>>> aesthetic merits) -- and are lighter (for what *that's* worth, but >>>>>> Bill would approve) and in most situations I'd choose the Tektros over >>>>>> the >>>>>> Pauls simply for looks and function, leaving aside price. >>>>>> >>>>>> But for a situation like mine, where the more precise machining >>>>>> eliminates squeal and minimizes judder, I willingly paid 500% more for >>>>>> Pauls. >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that I found both with Tektros and Pauls that I had to use them >>>>>> for ~ 1K miles before the pads bedded in and I got maximum braking. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> Patrick Moore >>>>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other >>>>>> writing services. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> *When thou didst not, savage,* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Know thine own meaning, but wouldst gabble like* >>>>>> >>>>>> *A thing most brutish, I endowed thy purposes* >>>>>> >>>>>> *With words that made them known.* >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/002dadd0-06e6-448d-a449-3c91f952c7aan%40googlegroups.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/002dadd0-06e6-448d-a449-3c91f952c7aan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Patrick Moore >>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing >>>> services. >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> *When thou didst not, savage,* >>>> >>>> *Know thine own meaning, but wouldst gabble like* >>>> >>>> *A thing most brutish, I endowed thy purposes* >>>> >>>> *With words that made them known.* >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Patrick Moore >>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing >>> services. >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> *When thou didst not, savage,* >>> >>> *Know thine own meaning, but wouldst gabble like* >>> >>> *A thing most brutish, I endowed thy purposes* >>> >>> *With words that made them known.* >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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