Nope, even repeatable 1xx's have an order problem.

kc

On 7/31/12 9:16 AM, Marjorie Bloss wrote:
Or, if order of the MARC fields is a concern, maybe another variation on the theme would be to make the 1xx fields repeatable? (And of course, expand the definition and description of those fields.) Just a thought...
Marjorie
Marjorie E. Bloss, Adjunct Faculty
Dominican University
Graduate School of Library and Information Science
7900 W. Division St.
River Forest, IL 60305
USA
1-773-878-4008
1-773-519-4009 (mobile)

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Karen Coyle <mailto:li...@kcoyle.net>
    *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
    <mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
    *Sent:* Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:45 AM
    *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Fw: What Goes into the 1xx Field?

    I second Marjorie's thanks to Bob for his well-thought-out comments.

    One possible approach to making decisions about how to encode RDA
    in MARC could be to look forward to the time that the data that is
    today in MARC will need to be transferred to an RDA-friendly
    format. Using this example, RDA makes mention of a "first" creator
    (as per comments here, not my own reading of RDA) -- if all
    creators are coded as 7xx, will that adequately retain the order?
    Given that some systems do not preserve the order of MARC fields,
    one could conclude that the 1xx fields for creators will be
    essential to that future transformation.

    I personally would like to see some mock-ups of RDA "records" that
    do not use MARC. I have in mind to do a few examples using the RDA
    elements, but I don't know enough to bring in the interesting
    cases that would illustrate the full scope of the rules. I was
    planning on using a few examples from the training materials, and
    code them (with "code" being used very loosely) in the three RDA
    scenarios. They'll probably be diagrams like those scenarios.
    Maybe with something like that before us, those of you who catalog
    could provide examples that would be better illustrations?

    kc

    On 7/30/12 7:00 PM, Marjorie Bloss wrote:
    My thanks for Bob's and others' thoughtful comments regarding my
    question about what goes into the 1xx field when using RDA.  You
    support what I've instinctively been doing but was uncertain as
    to where to turn for the specific RDA instruction.  This is
    where RDA 18.3 is particularly useful.
    Bob articulated my concerns about disconnects between MARC and
    RDA with regard to the 1xx and 240 fields so much better than I
    did.  AACR2 and MARC grew up together so it's no big surprise
    that MARC is so AACR2-centric. MARBI has worked long and hard,
    bringing MARC in line with RDA but it's a complex process and the
    pieces don't always fit together cleanly.  During the testing
    of RDA, the Dominican students participating in the
    test seriously considered not using the 1xx fields at all but 7xx
    fields instead in order to bring the test records more in line
    with the concepts found in RDA (that is, not designating any
    one person, family, or corporate body as the "main entry").  In
    the end, we didn't do this but it did tickle the backs of our minds.
    I suspect we are going to have to wait until there is a
    replacement for MARC before an authorized access point is an
    authorized access point is an authorized access point and we no
    longer identify one of them as the main entry.  The tickle in the
    back of my mind about using only the 7xx fields for persons,
    family, or corporate body access points when creating RDA records
    is inching closer to the front of my mind, however.
    Thank you again.
    Cordially,
    Marjorie
    Marjorie E. Bloss, Adjunct Faculty
    Dominican University
    Graduate School of Library and Information Science
    7900 W. Division St.
    River Forest, IL 60305
    USA
    1-773-878-4008
    1-773-519-4009 (mobile)

        ----- Original Message -----
        *From:* Robert Maxwell <mailto:robert_maxw...@byu.edu>
        *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
        <mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
        *Sent:* Monday, July 30, 2012 11:31 AM
        *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Fw: What Goes into the 1xx Field?

        I agree with the spirit of Marjorie's question, especially
        the part about keeping one foot on either side of the fence.
        It is true that we have had no official word on continued use
        of 1XX fields, by which I mean the MARC 21 Format for
        Bibliographic Data
        http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/ecbdhome.html
        instructions for 1XX have not been revised to take RDA into
        account. (There have been plenty of training materials
        prepared making use of 1XX.) But the MARC formats still refer
        to 1XX as "main entry" fields, which, as Marjorie points out,
        is not appropriate in an RDA context. Since AACR2 is still
        being used in bibliographic records it would be inappropriate
        to make this designation obsolete, but updating is needed to
        allow for RDA, if RDA is going to continue to use 1XX fields
        in MARC bibliographic records.

        RDA does not have the concept of main entry, but RDA 18.3
        still makes a distinction between the "creator having
        principal responsibility named first" and other creators
        (e.g. co-authors, etc.). So long as that distinction exists
        in the guidelines some way is needed to show it in
        bibliographic records, and it makes logical sense to me that
        100, 110, and 111 should be used for the "creator having
        principal responsibility named first" and 700 for other
        creators. I recommend that MARC be revised to clarify this.

        So far so good for 100, 110, and 111. But there is /nothing/
        in RDA corresponding to 130, "Main Entry-Uniform Title". An
        AACR2 uniform title is roughly equivalent to an authorized
        access point for a work or expression in RDA, representing a
        /work /or/expression/, not a person, family, or corporate
        body. A work is one of the first group of FRBR entities, "the
        products of intellectual or artistic endeavor". Persons,
        families, or corporate bodies are in the second group, "those
        entities responsible for the intellectual or artistic content
        (etc.)" of works, expressions, manifestations, or items. In
        the context of a work, the second group are creators. So,
        given RDA's distinction between principal and other creators,
        which I suggest in the previous paragraph could continue to
        use the 1XX/7XX distinction in MARC, 100 is appropriate for
        persons and families, and 110, and 111 are appropriate for
        corporate bodies, when they are the principal creator. But
        130 does not correspond to any RDA concept. A work (a FRBR
        group 1 entity) is not a creator (a FRBR group 2 entity), and
        so cannot be the principal creator of itself. So in my
        opinion 130 should not be used in RDA. All authorized access
        points for works or expressions related to the resource
        described in the bibliographic record (including the
        work/expression embodied in the manifestation) should be
        recorded in 7XX.

        130 happens to be where we record in MARC an AACR2 uniform
        title for a work that does not have a creator expressed
        within the uniform title, either because the work is
        anonymous, because (under AACR2) the work had more than three
        creators, or because the work is an aggregate work (a
        compilation of works by different creators). X30 corresponds
        to an authorized access point for a work in RDA based on
        preferred title alone (i.e., not combined with the authorized
        access point for a creator, see the guidelines in RDA 6.27).
        If my argument about 130 being inappropriate in an RDA record
        makes any sense, then it also applies to the 1XX + 240
        combination, which is the main entry in AACR2 for an AACR2
        uniform title that does happen to have an expressed creator.
        240 cannot exist independently of 1XX, so the two combined
        really represent a single access point string. In RDA terms,
        if used, 1XX + 240 would represent the authorized access
        point for a /work/ or /expression/, not for a person, family,
        or corporate body. If we think that 1XX should be used in RDA
        to represent the principal creator, then, again, a work
        cannot be the principal creator of itself. So in addition to
        130, I also think 1XX/240 should not be used in RDA, but
        instead all authorized access points for works and
        expressions related to the resource (including the
        work/expression embodied in the manifestation) should be
        coded in 7XX.

        When we began creating RDA bibliographic records in RDA
        during the test this was my practice-not to use 130 or 240.
        About a year later I was informed by the MARC folks at LC (as
        well as in the context of ECIP cataloging) that this wasn't
        "correct" and so I have returned to the AACR2 MARC practice,
        but I am very uncomfortable with it and would welcome having
        this issue reopened and discussed. I don't think coding an
        authorized access point for a work in 1XX makes sense in an
        RDA context. So thank you, Marjorie, for asking the question!

        Note: on Marjorie's comment about editors in RDA 19.2.1.1,
        they are not identified there as potential creators. Editors
        are identified there as potential contributors to an
        expression. I do not see any justification for recording them
        as principal creator in an RDA record.

        Bob

        Robert L. Maxwell

        Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian

        Genre/Form Authorities Librarian

        6728 Harold B. Lee Library

        Brigham Young University

        Provo, UT 84602

        (801)422-5568

        "We should set an example for all the world, rather than
        confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore
        pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

        *From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description
        and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf
        Of *Marjorie Bloss
        *Sent:* Monday, July 30, 2012 8:48 AM
        *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
        *Subject:* [RDA-L] Fw: What Goes into the 1xx Field?

        Dear Colleagues:

        I would like to raise a question that points out our standing
        with one foot on the AACR2 side of the fence and the other on
        the RDA side of the fence.   I was wondering how institutions
        are resolving the issue of what goes into the MARC 100 and
        110 fields when using RDA?  As you know, AACR2's concept of
        "main entry" (see AACR2 21.1A-21.1C) and "added entry" (see
        AACR2  21.29+) do not exist in RDA.  The MARC 100 and 110
        fields however are main entry-based, reflecting many years of
        AACR2 practice.

        When using RDA, how do you plan to determine what goes in the
        100 and 110 fields of the MARC record?   On what RDA
        instructions is your decision based?  Is it the first name
        (the creator -- personal, family, or corporate) in a
        statement of responsibility?   What about editors?  RDA in
        19.2.1.1 identifies editors as potential creators.   How
        might this affect what goes into a 100 field?

        Mac Elrod has kindly shared his "cheat sheets" with us that
        address this issue.   In them, he seems to support the
        concept of using the 700 and 710 fields more frequently for
        "main entry" personal and corporate names while setting the
        first indicator in the 245 at 0. (Please let me know if I'm
        misinterpreting this.)   Is this what others plan to do?

        Cordially,

        Marjorie

        Marjorie E. Bloss, Adjunct Faculty
        Dominican UniversityGraduate School of Library and
        Information Science

        7900 W. Division St.

        River Forest, IL 60305

        USA
        1-773-878-4008
        1-773-519-4009 (mobile)


-- Karen Coyle
    kco...@kcoyle.net  http://kcoyle.net
    ph: 1-510-540-7596
    m: 1-510-435-8234
    skype: kcoylenet


--
Karen Coyle
kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
ph: 1-510-540-7596
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet

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