Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin
-----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Matt James Sent: March 17, 2015 12:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn't, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter's AC output terminals - all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars - all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter's input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it's an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the week. Thanks. Curious what is going on with Outback's tech support. I waited on hold for a bit on Wednesday, then left a message for callback and am still waiting for that callback 3 business days later. My client is most upset that Outback can't even bother to return a tech call. His instructions to me are if we find multiple failed components in the system and not simple fixes to remove the gear and replace with "anything as long as it's not Outback". Will advise the list what was discovered once onsite. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: March 16, 2015 6:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not to add any confusion but I recently had to re-program the slave in a 2 VFX with Xfrmr system as it was doing the same thing...the 2 pole xfrmr breaker was tripping when a moderate load was on. Granted this was not happening during charging though. I think I changed the slave from OB slave L1 to OB slave L2 and all was good. It doesn't seem likely the programming in your case would have been messed with having been working well for years prior. Curious to hear though of a solution eventually. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Tump <mailto:t...@swnl.net> To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Have you turned the breaker on the t240 to the off position? One does NOT have to have that operational for the system to operate correctly.The old t240 has about the same parasitic draw as an inverter. Isolate, Isolate, Isolate. If the system functions correctly w/ the t240 off and the stacking is correct on this q stack disconnect it(the t240). Otherwise I would remove the inverter com cables and only connect 1 pair of inverters at a time, reset the mate with the correct com cables connected to P1& P2. Sometimes something so simple as disconnecting & reconnection the mate can have quite a benefit. Again I would, if you are really stuck on having the t240 operational, then try it with each inverter as a single unit then try the second set of inverters. Disconnect the #s1&2 inverters and do the same; connect #s 3&4 P1 & P2, to see exactly which component may be your problem. You are more then happy to contact me off list if you choose. contact info below. Tump On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches OK if the X240 blows the fuse which is on the output of the inverter while the inverter is charging, excessive current must be passing through from one inverter and back to the output of another inverter ( a form of AC coupling gone bad). The time delay fits as the inverter ramps up, I would look at the contactors in each slave as one may be hanging or ther may be a bad board, easy way to test is to isolate each inverter and with a amp meter connected at the X240 see if current goes away in the X240 as it should not be doing much with light loads on the "House" side of the inverters. The X240 is 25 amps while the inverters are 50 amps. Sounds like a interesting one to diagnose. Jerry On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Chris Worcester < ch...@solarwindworks.com> wrote: Hi Kevin, I have seen the X240's trip off like this when theyare over loaded. When this was happening to us the slave inverters had blown AC boards and some times Control and FET boards too. We had a hard time diagnosing this as their green lights were on. Using a clamp on amp meter on each inverter's AC IN conductor while charging with the gen set allowed us to compare their charging currents to each other. Typically the ones with blown AC boards output would be close to zero amps. So the X240's were doing double duty and they will smoke too if the inverters aren't delta with. Sincerely, Chris Worcester 530-448-9692 Sent from my Galaxy S®III -------- Original message -------- From: Kevin Pegg Date:03/11/2015 1:19 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Hello Wrenches, Customer in remote location has a strange situation come up on an existing system installed (by others) 6 or so years go. Quad stack VFX3648. Last night gen start was triggered by low voltage - a normal system operation. Approx 1h into charge, they lost 1/2 the circuits in house - L2 de-energized. Caretaker went to check power system and noticed the X240 breakers tripped. Tried to reset but it tripped out right away. So he left it as is and called me in the morning. Here's what I've been able to determine today: - The x240 is installed to bridge L1 & L2 on the load side. - with master inverter on, 3 slaves off, both L1 and L2 energized so suggests x240 is working. - within 10 seconds of generator on and charging, x240 breaker trips (and makes L2 go dark). - loads are minor, ~1,000 w of misc lights and such, isn't all loaded up on one leg. Appreciate any thoughts to remedy. I'm not as familiar with this config as others. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca <http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca/> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org t...@swnl.net <blocked::mailto:t...@swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:t...@swnl.net> <blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/> www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
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