Dan, Jay,… I’m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it; some recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years of simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers that equalize AGM’s are getting much longer battery life compared to charging to Mfg. specs. only.
A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If the battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb. Applying 2.6 Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very low. There is not enough current or time to create heat or pressure to release moisture. The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One customer that equalizes daily is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline (Concorde) GPL-4CT batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do not EQ seem to get 4-6 years. This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in the electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and discharging, some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead sulphate after normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in hardness and size with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong bonds that can't be removed through normal charging. Once this process starts (perhaps within 30 days!), these bonds continue to increase. My belief is that by applying a temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has been recombined, these areas are targeted for recombination. Slowing the growth of irreversible sulfation results in retaining higher capacity and thus longer cycle life. Just my opinion developed over the years it took me to acquire a gray beard. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 22, 2018, at 11:18 AM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi Dan, Curious about your statement on no EQ for AGM. FullRiver, Rolls and many others have a EQ or sometimes called "conditioning charge” or something similar, that is recommended for specific situations. I am not saying that all AGM can/should have a EQ/conditioning charge. Some can, some can’t, OEM/model specific. For example I was given the following info from Full River ( 400-6 model) if the batteries are showing signs of low capacity. While they mention this low capacity situation in the manual, they don’t list the following info. I had to call them to get it. For 48v battery: Charge to 60v 4-6 hrs Charge first thing in the am 3 days in a row 1 x year Jay Peltz Power > On Nov 22, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Dan Fink <danbo...@gmail.com > <mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > All; I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could > temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity > batteries is not possible. > > I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while > watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery > tester. > > I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test > results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of > battery replacement in this situation....you will be the loser who "wrecked > his system." > > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray <r...@solarray.com <mailto:r...@solarray.com> > wrote: > Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan, a system > wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series > connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and discharge > evenly. Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, so I'm > surprised it lasted even 5 years. My guess is that some of the batteries are > toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they were so grossly > imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the best ones for a > couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is "Batteries are > the Weakest Link". The customer is not going to have a decent experience > until they replace that mess with a properly sized and wired battery bank > from a reputable manufacturer. > > I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff. I don't > need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery >> bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought these >> new, that's a very expensive battery bank! >> >> Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed >> lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch >> of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc." >> >> My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things.... >> >> -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks with >> car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need lots of >> amps right now to thump that bass. >> >> - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this >> application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would >> recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks >> seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't. >> Sneaky language in the company name. >> >> - Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock >> AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA. >> >> - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not >> speak English as a first language. >> >> - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label stickers >> as an afterthought....and 30 years cycle life in a solar application? Has >> Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody importing Asian AGMs >> and sticking them with new stickers. >> >> DAN FINK >> Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham <m...@abrahamsolar.com >> <mailto:m...@abrahamsolar.com> wrote: >> Hello, Drake & All~ >> >> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & >> whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply >> below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing >> battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. >> >> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you >> first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest >> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & >> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve >> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is >> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking >> at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable >> "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital >> display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". >> >> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery >> pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are >> recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of >> attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner >> acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. >> >> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client has >> the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting that >> reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially blessed to >> be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending limited >> funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery testing & >> tutorials. >> >> The Wrench List is the Bomb~ >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com <http://www.abrahamsolar.com/> >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org >> <mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> >> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle >> batteries of the Batcap >> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html> >> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>brand. >> >> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 >> AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired in series >> to give a 48 V nominal bank. >> >> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 >> years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have >> lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for >> these batteries being around for a while. >> >> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel >> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. >> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the >> bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into >> this bank? $0? >> >> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He >> could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, >> leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> <>Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ <http://athens-electric.com/> >> >> ᐧ >> ᐧ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html> > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
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