Wrenches Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors Jerry
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray <r...@solarray.com> wrote: > The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 > only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total > assembly must be listed under UL 9540. > > Further it states: "* A group of separate components that includes > storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge > controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an > ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements > of article 480"* > > and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "*Energy > Storage systems shall be listed"*. > > So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. > Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc > (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an > outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". > > So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems > and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS *could* provide 120/240 > VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three > different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where > the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode > inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in > the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which > utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected > to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the > definition of ESS clearly states this - it *can* have AC or DC output, > and it *may* include power electronics (but may not). > > My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic > in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in > order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery > backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. > > Cheers, > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt <glenn.b...@glbcc.com> wrote: > >> Hi Ray, >> >> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my >> fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed >> with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly >> written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much >> discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed >> 706 apples to the typical residential systems. >> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I >> believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of >> 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. >> >> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the >> IFC as applicable locally. >> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do >> when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system >> operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). >> >> My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component >> (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a >> generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. >> >> Hope this helps! >> >> -Glenn Burt >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf >> Of Ray >> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM >> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >> Cc: Bill Brooks <bi...@energy808.com>; Bill Brooks <billbroo...@yahoo.com >> > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? >> >> Hi Everyone; >> >> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the >> newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over >> 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting >> means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so >> now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for >> guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? >> >> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off >> grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid >> installers need some more clarification. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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