Thanks Kent,
A question, most of the Sierra AHJ's only care, and that is rare, that there is a remote power off like Outback and Schneider have already. I understand it is not a battery disco, and even though there is one in these systems, what is your response please? I mostly dislike power sheds as people need an excuse to go there and observe. I mostly use a garage or outside house wall to build a bat room. Appreciate your thoughts. Insurance issues are not as important these days as many of us no longer can get it Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:33:03 -0700, Kent Osterberg wrote: Ray, Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged in the 2020 Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible disconnect within site of the batteries. That's a good thing considering the environment near lead acid batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't required in the 48-volt battery room. Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, an outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going to be a pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small off-grid systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a 24-volt tap on the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But considering that it is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably best to spend the money for the bird box. At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about using a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC 480.7(B) doesn't apply. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote: I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS, even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter. I knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to 706. Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the outside remote disconnect. Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new requirement? Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely? and still my initial question: Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote disconnect? They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in 480.7(A)......quite confusing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX flavors Jerry On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray wrote: The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540. Further it states: "_ A group of separate components that includes storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements of article 480"_ and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "_Energy Storage systems shall be listed"_. So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect". So here's the real question: Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS _could_ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it _can_ have AC or DC output, and it _may_ include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [4] SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com [5] On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] There are two list archives for searching. 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