> -----Original Message----- > From: bryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:27 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [REBOL] Re: lost the case ... > > > It would be nice to see some group projects. I would like to see a > project to put together a real library of xml functionality for Rebol, > something which I think might be too much for one or two to accomplish > realistically. >
I'll butt in here, as I am one who is trying to create a concerted development effort. why is rebol not as widespread as it should? its scary and easy to put down for IT managers who often have less knowledge about IT than about their dog's digestive proteins. All they want is a sense of security. rebol does not provide that. python does, perl does, .net does. what mega corporation claims and is proud to say that it uses ios or even rebol/core? ......... none I heard of. python uses google... and that is a powerfull statement if any. Problem is that many of us don't use rebol as our main development package, working a lot of our stuff at home in a hobby-like environment, so many projects are stale or move on only slowly. France might be the one exception to this, I hope it succeeds in becoming a beacon which light up the rest of the world to rebol. I have used rebol commercially, but when projects aren't comming in, I have less justification to put time on my tools. Take the steel project, for example, its always advancing. But I'm currently only putting a few hours on it every week, usually that's not enough to call it an update. Documentation also takes soooo much time, that it slows down development a lot. I started steel in the mindset that people might join me with specific tools which all complement themselves (my main contribution being glass). Steel is a core to which anything can be grafted, but I need to actually get that core to a release state and all that is quite tedious. releasing QAD code tidbits is easy, but implementing liquid-vid, for example, means that I must re-engineer 50 types of gadgets (30 are done ;-), make them stable, some quite hard to taim (even for the most advanced of us), in their current form... And that's just one of 20 pieces of the puzzle. I've shifted the development of steel so that low-level constructs are done which are released, which can be used by anyone. This is instead of making the code editor, which is what everyone expects, which would be rebuilt every few months, making any of your projects corrupt... lets take GLASS. I worked on it almost full time for 2 months. Man, it has its own dialect, complete dynamic nested layout, it supports run-time switchable localization (which even supports multiple datatypes, not just text), run-time skin swaping, all in a pretty fast and REALLY easy to use package... but there you go, I lost that job (because the company got stabbed in the back) and glass development all but stopped (at least I was officialy given the rights to all the code :-). I know have an advanced experimental layout engine, "in the closet", ready to be be put into an official release state (read as: completely re-coded), a complete and true VID alternative which goes beyond anything any of you have seen in rebol, but, again ... time is against me, steel must be done before I start again on glass. What's the point in releasing code if no one's going to use it cause its not usable enough, even if already great... liquid is a different issue... it is release stable, everyone seems to like what they hear of it, but I have not gotten a lot of feedback of people actualy trying it out... and trying to grasp its subtleties. Liquid.r really is a core tool which is meant to be used as a data flow architecture, also as the basis to create other tools, which plug into that data. Liquid-vid is a working example of such a thing, liquid-net and liquid-sql would be others... Do you have time to learn it, and code a module for it? probably not, unless you think that its advantages will outweigh the time spent on learning it, but how can I explain/convince people without real examples!? again, time. And I understand. I have a release plan which is pretty immutable. everything will be there in time, but sometimes I have so much work at home, that I can't do 1/10th of what I wish I'd do. The only thing that is certain is that steel is a project built on solid foundations with a tenacious and stubborn person at its head. I WILL see it through. It is a project 10 years in the making, and When I started steel in rebol, I though about it long and hard... and I decided that if I was going to start, it had to be finished, even if it would take years. I want all of those years designing and implementing obscure ideas on my old and trusty A1200(in language E), to be of some worth. If steel does not get to a certain point, it will be like I've been working hundreds of hours for absolutely nothing. ON ANOTHER NOTE: rebol.org is a great team effort. All of you please use it when you can. Also please give them feedback. I know how fun it is to get questions and even criticism... Nothing is worse than NOT knowing what people think. cheers! -MAx ------------- Steel project coordinator http://www.rebol.it/~steel ------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Coussement Christophe > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:41 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [REBOL] Re: lost the case ... > > > We just can't let it to agree with you, pekr :( > > We are now working since 2000 full time with REBOL for developing > business core applications, and it is a monthly work to convince our > management to keep it that way. > We had a few meeting where we could demonstrate the power of the > underlying concepts of REBOL, and they agreed to it. > But the raising question is : what about the future ? what if RT does > not survive a bad financial situation ? > Life goes on... when I see how PHP/Python/Java or even C# > community are > dynamic and growing on, how does the REBOL community stands there ? > Lot of very great peoples are working on very nice projects, > but can we > speak of community work ? are there out there projects developed by > -let's say- 10 people. > Very good idea's - PDF-maker, steel, anamonitor, ... - are > supported by > one or two people, I think... > I'm feeling even more uncomfortable when my bosses ask "how is it with > your projects ? ... and still using REBOL ?..." > I'm afraid one day will come we will have to switch to more > dynamic env, > even if its less revolutionary and productive, but better supported. > Just look at the history: if a revolution is not supported by > a critical > mass people, it will not become a success, being overthrowed > or becoming > a dictature... > Please RT, save our code ! > > As always, just 5 (euro-)cents thoughts > > ==christophe > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Petr Krenzelok [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: 04 November, 2003 00:35 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [REBOL] lost the case ... > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > today I lost second person who started with rebol some few > > months ago. > > Sorry if you will find my comments off-topic, or negative, > > but I can't > > resist. And what is more - I think current situation deserves some > > criticism. Maybe you will tell me you don't know how my > lamenting can > > help rebol, but otoh I may ask you - how current state of > no visible > > progress can help it either. > > > > I know there are several groups of rebol users - those who are real > > rebol hackers, who can accomplish really nice things using > rebol, but > > otoh there is group of ppl, who will start to be frustrated, > > after some > > time of usage. > > > > Today I met such person - my long time friend. He is a programmer - > > average one. He tried to do very simply thing - press the > button and > > insert some text into area, into caret position. While I am > sure few > > even few lines solutions could be posted, the problem is, > > that my friend > > does not care anymore. And sadly - I have to agree with him, as the > > cause is: > > > > - VID is 70 - 80% complete, which means it pushes ppl to > adapt styles. > > - styles don't provide proper encapsulation - why such > thing as caret > > position of certain face is not simply a property of face object ... > > - styles are inconsistent from the point of user data storage > > - styles are incomplete in 'feel area of behavior > > - lack of View documentation ... > > > > I am (was) a programmer too. I think I know what I talk > > about. Don't get > > me wrong - VID is beautifull concept, but in current state it > > pushes ppl > > to often try to hack into View level, but then - there is a lack of > > documentation. When I learned Visual Objects, there were 2 things > > important - event model and class hierarchy. The same goes > > for View imo > > - I remember that with View beta 1 came one doc, which left VID > > completly - it explained how concept of faces, events, its > filtering > > etc. works. I think, that from programmer's perspective, > > something like > > that should reappear and upon such doc things like VID should be > > explained. VID only docs are nice, if VID itself is complete > > enough so > > it will not push ppl to touch under its level ... > > > > I am also asked - for nearly one year - hey, - what is new > > with rebol? > > And I have to say - nothing. SDK here or there does not > count. I know > > that money are priority probably, but in such case, I think > > that is is > > inproper identification of long term business strategy. I would not > > bother with SDK for BSD or so, but would focus onto > bringing Rebol to > > mobile devices arena, OSx etc. > > > > Now read those and look into the dates: > > November 2002: > > Monthly "State of the REBOLion" updates - Starting as of this > > message we > > will provide regular monthly news updates to keep you > > informed. (We also > > hope to recruit members from the REBOL community to > contribute useful > > information, hints, docs, and scripts.) > > > > http://www.rebol.com/news3203.html > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=199 > > > > I think that those things should not be stated, unless > fullfilled in > > reasonable enought timeframe. From external pov rebol totally > > lacks on > > development. I was trying to be helpfull as much as I could > to my two > > friends, but they are not blind and I refuse to fool them > > around. I was > > also asked some two years ago to write about View for > magazine of 12K > > monthly issues sold, but I refuse to, because of inability to > > guarantee > > any single thing regarding rebol's future. Gee, last official View > > release was when? > > > > Well, sadly I have to admit, that Rebol is becoming another > Amiga - I > > will use it till the last day, but to be fair I would > really have to > > think twice before suggesting Rebol to newcomers. > > > > Yesterday I received renewal for payment of rebol.cz domain. > > Some time > > ago I had intention to build some czech portal. I expected > someone to > > help. I expected growing community, but now I think I will let the > > domain go. Should I do it for 3 - 8 active rebols in Czech > > Republic? Ask > > yourself how many rebols there are in other countries? > > > > Rebol was/is not succesfull in generating criticall mass of > > developers/users, so that most rebollers have another > primar jobs and > > having less and less time for rebol related projects. I feel > > sorry for > > loosing two ppl to rebol case, but untill there is publicly > > stated short > > and long term strategy and at least some sign of sticking to > > published > > words I wonder if situation can get any better soon. > > > > Sorry for frustration, but I think I am not only one thinking > > along the > > lines ... > > > > -pekr- > > -- > > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. > > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject. > > -- To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the subject.
