hmmm, I am just taking what Dr. MacKillop has not >theorized on, but stated...
he stated his speculative theory- he has presented no evidence whatsoever as to where and when the name conor came into being, nor is this the least bit relevant to the topic at hand- the name conan, which is the name under discussion. no one has disputed the antiquity of the name conan. i simply stated for comparison that the correct pronounciation of conan is close to the proounciation of conor- and i am correct in my assertion. JB ( he being a former >professor of English at Syracuse U., aforementioned >pres. of the American Conference for Irish Studies, >and not to mention the Visiting Fellow in Celtic >Languages at Harvard and a 3 time published author for >Oxford Press) I figured that he probably knows. jesse he speculates- that is not the same as knowing, and far from first-hand knowledge. i might add as a caveat that there are many gaelic words which have entered the english language which are not given proper credit in the word origin portions of webster's dictionaries- which are considered authoritative. so authority is not the final word in any argument- tradition and precedent precede and supercede authority. in a court cases, authorities form each side offer their _opinions_, but legal precedent overules them utterly. JB > >> so anglicization is irrelevant to my previous >> presentation- JB > > but the point that MacKillop illustrates concerning >the variance of pronounciation is very relevent, which >was the main idea behind the quotation jesse I have already pointed out that the CURRENT STATE OF variance in pronounciation cannot be traced back in time to the point of origin of the name conan- nor have you demonstrated that the name conan is pronounced differently in different locales of ireland- and even if you could you cannot demonstrate that these variations existed in old irish- which is the origin of the name. so variations of pronounciation in MODERN GAELIC are irrelvant- exactly as I stated. my statement still stands, and Mackillop is still irrelevant. JB > > >> every county of ireland has it's own dialect, BUT we >> cannot pretend... JB > >... exactly, this is why I included the quotation from >Dr. MacKillop! I will re-quote: " ...Irish >pronounciation in particular is not standardized." >pretty final I would say. jesse see above- modern gaelic is irrelevant to an old irish name- conan- which is the basis for REH's character. and even if every person in ireland pronounced the name conan differently- this is totally and completely irrelevant to the old irish name- and conan was a character who suppsosedly lived in antiquity- not modern ireland- THE THE ANTIQUE PRONOUNCIATION IS all that is relevant. so you're rubber duck is shot out of the water- modern gaelic is irrelevant- AND THERE WAS NO ANGLICIZATION IN OLD IRISH IN THE TIME AND PLACE WHEN THE NAME WAS ORIGINATED. JB >> as to your government translations- well and good, >> but completely and >> totally irrelevant unless your specialty is old >> irish, and something tells >> me it's not. JB > > Irrelevant to old Irish, jesse no, irrelevant to this discusskion. your language vocation is irrelevant to this disscussion, unless you can speak with authority on old irish- you admitted you cannot- so irrelevant is an accurate description of the state of things now. this thread- which you begun when you requested the correct pronounciation of the name conan- it is pronounced as in the english word 'con'- not the word 'cone'- accent on the first syllable- CoN-an it is not pronounced as in the prefix co (co-operative) or the word cone. if you really want to get technical- conan is a gealic name and the cymry- the tribe conan was supposed to come from- spoke a goidelic language. so the name conan never really would have existed in old goidelic- and there never was a member of the tuath of the cymry who would or could have had such a name. however, if you like, I will check the insciptions of every ogham stone in Britain and verify the non-existence of such a name in goidelic. it would have entered that language when parts of wales were colonized by irish after the roman period in britain. and further if an author writes about a culture, and uses the names of that culture, and if he is unable to properly pronounce the names of that culture of which he writes, this in no way alters the FACT that the names and the culture pre-existed- and THAT TRADITION, and that precedent of that pre-existing tradition, is the final word on the spelling and pronounciation of that name. not the author who cannot speak the language. not the reader who cannot speak the language. though they are free to mispronounce all they like. example: the name yasmin/yasmine occurs in many REH stories- some in america may pronounce it YAASmin, but the correct traditional form would be yas-MEEN. a writer may write a story set in spain and use the name of a character pedro, believing that it is pronounced peedro- this is incorrect and the author's mistake cannot change the fact that the spanish name is pronounced a certain way. JB but not irrelevant to know >that it is unwise to make claims about a non-native >language, even if you are completely fluent in it. > Anyway, I am not really concerned with the >subtleties of Old Irish; I know only a little of the >language's properties, and have this single book as my >information source. Instead, I feel that since many >people indicated that Howard believed his Conan was >pronounced KO-n'n, this is the final word, and the >confirmation to my initial query. > Jesse no that is certainly not the final word. it is highly likely that howard mispronounced the name conan. the name is pronounced conan- with a short 'o' and liklehood is that howard pronounced it coenan - and with a long 'o' liklehood is that if he was to have heard the correct form he would have utitlized it immediately- but this is my speculation. and novalyne's assertion to any of REH's pronounciations is hearsay, unless she has a tape recording of REH himself speaking the name. only that would be the final word on his own personal prounciation of the name of his character, but this is still irrelevant to the actual pronounciation of the old irish name, which was appropriated by REH- not out of the blue- but for a reason. he wanted an name from antiquity- and he got an authentic hero name from old irish. much like the greek hero herakles, who we mispronounce hercules. the original greek pronounciation is correct, regardless of who writes a story about hercules, and regardless of how many people mispronounce it. JB
