dear all, it is likely that Van Laar was triggered by a visit from me and Bram Schierbeek (Dutch Crystallographic Society) around 2016. As Bill David pointed out in 2015, the year 2016 was approximately 100 years after the 'invention of powder diffraction' and approximately 50 years after 'the invention of Rietveld refinement'. Unaware of the history of the development of the method at Petten (NL), Bram and me visited both Hugo Rietveld and Bob van Laar in 2015/2016, with the intention to organize a celebration symposium "Debye & Rietveld: 100&50 years" in Amsterdam. We soon learned that the different opinions on the roles in realizing the method were not reconcilable. In my personal opinion, this celebration event was not the stage to start criticizing the role of Hugo Rietveld in the development of the method. The publication by Van Laar and Schenk might therefore also have been triggered by our (naive) visit and/or by the celebration that took place in Amsterdam.
with best regards, Lambert van Eijck Delft On 18-08-2023 11:30, Alan W Hewat wrote: Bonjour Armel. No, it was van Laar who initiated it. He was annoyed that I had praised Rietveld too much in my own accounts. http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWI_IcBXLQ$> 'History of the ILL from a personal perspective'. https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKAXaNvpA$> 'Hugo Rietveld (1932–2016)' Alan Hewat, William I. F. David and Lambert van Eijck He sent me a draft paper that he proposed to publish, but I suggested a less critical version. He agreed, and later involved Henk Schenk in producing a softer version. So it's the opposite to what you assume - Van Laar's original paper was toned down in the joint paper: https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWJSotPttA$> "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten" Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk Why don't you write to van Laar and ask for a copy of his original version (abstract below) Facts about the Profile refinement method in Powder diffraction. Bob van Laar, Amsterdam Justification of the present paper The aim of this paper is to give detailed historical insight in the procedure that led to the development of the profile refinement of neutron powder data, since then known as the 'Rietveld method'. The present paper has been written by the last person still alive, involved in the development of this method (Loopstra died in november 1998). The purpose is to correct some incorrectness's that have been connected to the method in course of time. Kind regards, Alan. On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 at 10:51, Le Bail Armel <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr<mailto:le-bail.ar...@orange.fr>> wrote: Bonjour Alan, My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would have been credible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar and also if published before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018. That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main arguments inside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story when Rietveld refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange manner. Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many people to believe in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo Rietveld and it is not sufficient for me. Best Armel PS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper where his method was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method" and based on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition formula ? envoyé : 16 août 2023 à 19:08 de : Alan W Hewat <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com<mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com>> à : Le Bail Armel <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr<mailto:le-bail.ar...@orange.fr>> cc : "rietveld_l@ill.fr<mailto:rietveld_l@ill.fr>" <rietveld_l@ill.fr<mailto:rietveld_l@ill.fr>> objet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people Bonjour Armel. In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement ?" please see: "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten" Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWJSotPttA$> Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr president. This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His point is that scientific discoveries are often the result of the work of many people, yet we tend to simplify the process and attribute them to individual heros. Mike Glazer is simply reviewing his book. Salutations, Alan ________________________________ Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone) alan.he...@neutronoptics.com<mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> +33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856 http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWLlmBowOQ$> _______________________________ On Wed, 16 Aug 2023, 18:45 Le Bail Armel, <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr<mailto:le-bail.ar...@orange.fr>> wrote: In a book : How Science Runs – Impressions from a Scientific Career. By Eric J. Mittemeijer Reviewed by Mike Glazer "In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original idea for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later discussed the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order to create a computer program to carry out the method, they hired the computer-savvy Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and Rietveld was published in Acta Crystallographica in 1969, having been submitted in 1968. A later paper published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in Journal of Applied Crystallography is the one that is always quoted and led to the name ‘Rietveld method’ or ‘Rietveld refinement’. Mittemeijer points out that this did grave injustice to the originator of the method, Bert Loopstra. Rietveld later left science to become a librarian: Mittemeijer says the notion that he left science because he was disappointed that the method had not found wide acceptance at the time is just a ‘fairy tale’. Thus, according to the author, the profile refinement method should more justly be called the ‘Loopstra method’, concluding that this story has a sad ending." https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/etc/articles?issue=156393&result_138339_result_page=39<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/etc/articles?issue=156393&result_138339_result_page=39__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWIjLbRJYg$> Where did they find the text of the judgement ? Any verdict somewhere ? Condamned by "impressions" ! Any text from Loopstra who had a lot of time to tell something but never do it ? Flagged at PubPeer : https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/79219E32306099C040C633FFABE6EC<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/79219E32306099C040C633FFABE6EC__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWLtZ7kUhg$> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/05241C3D2890D43ED23BA1905CD32C<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/05241C3D2890D43ED23BA1905CD32C__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKNEoc5ew$> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/9D12C10951333B68B27FB891266A88<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/9D12C10951333B68B27FB891266A88__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWLmbmhUmw$> Best, Armel Le Bail ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com><mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr<mailto:lists...@ill.fr>> eg: HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKIHDHGwA$> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com><mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr<mailto:lists...@ill.fr>> eg: HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKIHDHGwA$> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com><mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr<mailto:lists...@ill.fr>> eg: HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKIHDHGwA$> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -- ______________________________________________ Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com><mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> +33.476.98.41.68 http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.neutronoptics.com/hewat__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKfjGeOQA$> ______________________________________________ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com><mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr><mailto:lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is on https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKIHDHGwA$ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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