I have no problem with Rietveld's prize Armel. Crystallographers ignored the method for too long, fixated as they were on "structure factors". Even your own method harks back to that. The idea that physical parameters could be refined directly from the data is more a physicist's idea, which makes me think that physicists Loopstra and Van Laar had essential input. Rietveld was a crystallographer. In retrospect the prize might have been awarded to the trio, but in retrospect we also simplify reality.
________________________________ Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone) alan.he...@neutronoptics.com +33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856 http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat _______________________________ On Fri, 18 Aug 2023, 15:15 Le Bail Armel, <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr> wrote: > I would be curious if the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences has archives > > concerning this Gregori Aminoff 1995 Prize decision/investigation : > > http://www.cristal.org/rietv025/foto3.jpg > > Who was contacted as reference ? Was Loopstra contacted and if yes, any > > positive answer from him ? > > ;-) > > > > *envoyé :* 18 août 2023 à 11:30 > *de :* Alan W Hewat <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> > *à :* Le Bail Armel <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr> > *cc :* rietveld_l@ill.fr > *objet :* Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some > more people > > Bonjour Armel. > > No, it was van Laar who initiated it. He was annoyed that I had praised > Rietveld too much in my own accounts. > http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html* 'History of the ILL from a > personal perspective'.* > https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/ '*Hugo Rietveld > (1932–2016)'* Alan Hewat, William I. F. David and Lambert van Eijck > He sent me a draft paper that he proposed to publish, but I suggested > a less critical version. He agreed, and later involved Henk Schenk in > producing a softer version. So it's the opposite to what you assume - Van > Laar's original paper was toned down in the joint paper: > https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058 "*The development of powder > profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten*" > Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk > > *Why don't you write to van Laar and ask for a copy of his original > version (abstract below)* > > > > *Facts about the Profile refinement method in Powder diffraction.Bob van > Laar, Amsterdam*Justification of the present paper > > > > > *The aim of this paper is to give detailed historical insight in the > procedure that led to thedevelopment of the profile refinement of neutron > powder data, since then known as the'Rietveld method'. The present paper > has been written by the last person still alive, involvedin the development > of this method (Loopstra died in november 1998). The purpose is tocorrect > some incorrectness's that have been connected to the method in course of > time.* > > Kind regards, Alan. > > On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 at 10:51, Le Bail Armel <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr> > wrote: > > Bonjour Alan, > > My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would > have been > > credible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar > and also if > > published before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018. > > That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main > arguments > > inside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story > when Rietveld > > refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange > manner. > > Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many > people to > > believe in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo > Rietveld and it is not > > sufficient for me. > > Best > > Armel > > PS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper > where his > > method was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method" > and > > based on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition > formula ? > > *envoyé :* 16 août 2023 à 19:08 > *de :* Alan W Hewat <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> > *à :* Le Bail Armel <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr> > *cc :* "rietveld_l@ill.fr" <rietveld_l@ill.fr> > *objet :* Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some > more people > > Bonjour Armel. > > In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement > ?" please see: > "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre > Netherlands at Petten" > Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk > https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058 > > Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr > president. This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His > point is that scientific discoveries are often the result of the work of > many people, yet we tend to simplify the process and attribute them to > individual heros. Mike Glazer is simply reviewing his book. > > Salutations, Alan > ________________________________ > Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics > Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone) > alan.he...@neutronoptics.com > +33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856 > http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat > _______________________________ > > > On Wed, 16 Aug 2023, 18:45 Le Bail Armel, <le-bail.ar...@orange.fr> wrote: > > In a book : > How Science Runs – Impressions from a Scientific Career. By Eric J. > Mittemeijer > > > Reviewed by Mike Glazer > > > "In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous > Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original idea > for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later discussed > the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order to create a > computer program to carry out the method, they hired the computer-savvy > Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and Rietveld was published in > *Acta > Crystallographica* in 1969, having been submitted in 1968. A later paper > published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in *Journal of Applied > Crystallography* is the one that is always quoted and led to the name > ‘Rietveld method’ or ‘Rietveld refinement’. Mittemeijer points out that > this did grave injustice to the originator of the method, Bert Loopstra. > Rietveld later left science to become a librarian: Mittemeijer says the > notion that he left science because he was disappointed that the method had > not found wide acceptance at the time is just a ‘fairy tale’. Thus, > according to the author, the profile refinement method should more justly > be called the ‘Loopstra method’, concluding that this story has a sad > ending." > > > > https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/etc/articles?issue=156393&result_138339_result_page=39 > > > Where did they find the text of the judgement ? Any verdict somewhere ? > Condamned by "impressions" ! > > Any text from Loopstra who had a lot of time to tell something but never > do it ? > > > Flagged at PubPeer : > > https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/79219E32306099C040C633FFABE6EC > > https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/05241C3D2890D43ED23BA1905CD32C > > https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/9D12C10951333B68B27FB891266A88 > > > Best, > > Armel Le Bail > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com > > > Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body > text > The Rietveld_L list archive is on > http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com > > > Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body > text > The Rietveld_L list archive is on > http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com > > > Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body > text > The Rietveld_L list archive is on > http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > -- > ______________________________________________ > Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE > <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> +33.476.98.41.68 > http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat > <http://www.neutronoptics.com/hewat> > ______________________________________________ > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com > > > Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body > text > The Rietveld_L list archive is on > http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please do NOT attach files to the whole list <alan.he...@neutronoptics.com> Send commands to <lists...@ill.fr> eg: HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
