On 2011-06-04, at 3:43 PM, Adam wrote: > Many got it pre-installed with their machines. Sure Windows 7 may run on > pre-2007 machines if you bought it for over six thousand bucks, but that > still doesn't resolve another issue (which i forgot to mention) - > compatibility.
Windows 7 has about the same requirements as Windows XP if you do feature parity on both installs. Starting to refer to "over six thousand bucks" is absurd. A P4 could run Win 7 fine, and those have been around since 2000.... > > Gotta love that philosophy "who cares about 2.5GB or 8GB" - the operating > system starts doing it, and then all the programs follow. Remember MSN > Messenger 1.0? That was only a few hundred kilobytes to few megabytes to > install. Now its over 180MB to install. That includes the size of the .NET framework and many other components -- the actual install is much smaller. Much of that is bitmap, picture data as well. Also, MSN Messenger 1.0 did not do things like webcam support, file transfers, etc... so I don't understand the point of the comparison? > > Which application do you want to bloat today? > > <ps... i think the thread has been derailed> Yes, it has, I demonstrated how "upgrade to Win7" is not such a strange thing to ask, and instead of accepting defeat to my arguments, you are talking about 6000$ computers and MSN Messenger 1.0. So I'll quit now. -- Best regards, Alex Ionescu > > On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:34:20 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ion...@videotron.ca> wrote: > >> Windows 7 runs on pre-2007 computers just fine, so that's irrelevant. >> >> Windows 7 is available as a trial, and also for free for students, and also >> for only 99$ as an upgrade to XP, which came out a decade ago. So there's >> people who don't have 99$/10 years? How did they get XP then? >> >> Windows 7 does not take up 15GB of disk space. A fresh install of Ultimate >> uses 8.64GB. >> >> If 8.64GB is too much, you can use Windows 7 for Thin PCs, which is in CTP >> right now. It uses ~2.7GB of space for a fresh install, only slightly higher >> than XP's 1.5. >> >> (Also, who the cares about 2.5 or 8GB when you can get a 1TB disk for 100$ >> these days?) >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Alex Ionescu >> >> On 2011-06-04, at 3:03 PM, Adam wrote: >> >>> I am aware of that. I was talking about Microsoft Windows and not ReactOS - >>> and was responding to someone who suggested "Update to Windows Vista+, >>> which has KTM." >>> >>> Please read the messages that are being replied to as well, other than just >>> the replies. >>> >>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 04:53:43 +1000, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo >>> <elh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Adam... ReactOS will not be Win Vista/7 ;) >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Adam <geekdun...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> And what about people with computers older than 2007 and/or people who do >>>>> not want to (and/or cannot) pay $$$ for an upgrade and/or people who do >>>>> not >>>>> want to install an operating system that takes up 15GB of disk space? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 03:59:46 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ion...@videotron.ca> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Update to Windows Vista+, which has KTM. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Alex Ionescu >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2011-06-04, at 10:21 AM, Adam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> A number of times (eg. .NET install/AV install) I have had it happen at >>>>>>> the end of the install. Then when I attempt to uninstall it there are >>>>>>> errors >>>>>>> produced regarding it (often not just after a fresh install of Windows; >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> mean after using the computer for some time - particularly after >>>>>>> updating >>>>>>> Windows Installer) then it makes the product difficult (if not >>>>>>> impossible) >>>>>>> to uninstall. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 00:07:44 +1000, Zachary Gorden < >>>>>>> drakekaizer...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And how many times does the database get corrupted? I've never run into >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> and the conditions that would cause a corruption would equally screw >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> other installer, since it would have to be a run that got interrupted >>>>>>>> mid-install. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Adam <geekdun...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Next will you be suggesting for people to use MMC snapins as opposed to >>>>>>>>> writing standalone applications, because it is shitty standalone >>>>>>>>> applications that do things and not MMC? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can use WIX/MSI to write shitty installers too if I am not >>>>>>>>> mistaken. >>>>>>>>> I've seen brilliant NSIS/InstallShield installers and shitty MSI >>>>>>>>> installers. >>>>>>>>> And vice versa. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As an end-user I must say MSI also tends to piss me off, particularly >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> the database gets corrupted and what not. Good concept though, but I >>>>>>>>> question the way it is implemented. I have written about what I think >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> MSI in another mail so no need for me to repeat myself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But what I am trying to suggest is that shitty installers will be >>>>>>>>> shitty >>>>>>>>> installers. You can write shitty installers in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> SuperDuperUltraInstallerLanguageSoGoodItIsGuaranteedToMakeOtherInstallersShitTheirPantsAndGoBankrupt >>>>>>>>> and they will still be shitty installers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 23:49:26 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ion...@videotron.ca> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Oh, I do believe shitty software/installers do this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Microsoft's technologies do not, however. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So use WIX/MSI, not NSI/InstallShield. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-04, at 9:23 AM, Kamil Hornicek wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm in charge of 40+ PCs running mostly XP at work. Believe me when I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> tell you people do write their own code (or use the available API >>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly) for installers or some online activation bullshit. I >>>>>>>>>>> came >>>>>>>>>>> across several installers/apps that were unable to detect or use our >>>>>>>>>>> proxy >>>>>>>>>>> (we also use wpad for proxy autodiscovery via dns) and I always had >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> connect that PC directly to our gateway to make stuff install which >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> annoying as hell. I am not making this up, pay me a visit if you >>>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> K. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ionescu" < >>>>>>>>>>> ion...@videotron.ca> >>>>>>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev@reactos.org> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 8:20 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees. ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Again all of this is irrelevant: since I think you are a Linux user, >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> can understand why you are confused. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Windows, all HTTP communication is done by WinHTTP and/or >>>>>>>>>>>> WinINET, >>>>>>>>>>>> nobody writes their own custom socket code. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> WinHTTP/WinINET control the proxy settings for the machine. In >>>>>>>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>> you use Google Chrome on Windows (or Safari) and go to the >>>>>>>>>>>> proxy/connection >>>>>>>>>>>> settings, you will see "IE's" proxy connection dialog -- because >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> settings/dialog are owned by the OS Library, not the individual >>>>>>>>>>>> applications. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, the installer will use 100% the same settings as the web >>>>>>>>>>>> browser, including the same protocol. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, as I stated, if the browser can download foo.exe, so will the >>>>>>>>>>>> online >>>>>>>>>>>> installer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 1:50 PM, Kamil Hornicek wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> whatever you use for downloading the installer has to be configured >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> connect throught the proxy and also to use its dns services for >>>>>>>>>>>>> host name >>>>>>>>>>>>> resolving. if the installer itself isn't aware of the need for >>>>>>>>>>>>> proxy server >>>>>>>>>>>>> (or is not able to connect through socks or whatever the proxy >>>>>>>>>>>>> uses) it >>>>>>>>>>>>> won't be usually able to resolve the hostname it's trying to >>>>>>>>>>>>> connect to >>>>>>>>>>>>> (depends on the exact network configuration). also the default >>>>>>>>>>>>> route to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> internet would be missing or direct outgoing connections would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> blocked >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which they usually are otherwise you wouldn't be forced to use >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> proxy >>>>>>>>>>>>> server in the first place) so the traffic generated by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> installer >>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't have any means to reach its destination. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to derail the discussion and I apologize for that. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll >>>>>>>>>>>>> shut up next time. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kamil >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ionescu" < >>>>>>>>>>>>> ion...@videotron.ca >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev@reactos.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 7:03 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees. >>>>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since online installers use HTTP, and the user got the installer >>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTTP, what would a proxy server change? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 12:33 PM, Kamil Hornicek wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to spam this discussion but I have to.. What every >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other software company also does is refusing to believe someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind a proxy server. If you go this way, please make sure the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't need a direct connection. Also online installers are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generally a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major pain in the ass if you don't provide an offline installer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Ionescu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: ReactOS Development List >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 5:56 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why separate installers for x64/ARM? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just do what every software company this side of the century >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does: a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 400kb installer which lets you select the packages you want, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> downloads >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 11:38 AM, Zachary Gorden wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spoke with Amine and Daniel. I've agreed to the lesser evil of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bundling the FULL cmake. Reasons are if we want the BE to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flexible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to be used for more than just building ROS, we can't gimp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmake with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the belief that no one will need the things we didn't include. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is again >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on Windows. I remain uninvolved with decisions about the Linux >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BE. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Colin Finck <co...@reactos.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreu...@web.de> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My vote on this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CMake: bundle it, optional on installation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x64/arm: create individual installers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * CMake: bundle it, go for the (minimal) version without an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installer. It's nothing "exotic" to install after all, just put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it together >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the other utilities in RosBE. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * x64/arm: If build tool sizes are staying like this, create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual installers. Just for testing, I'll try an x86/x64 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multilib build >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Binutils and GCC though, would be nice to know how much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smaller it is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compared to separate x86 and x64 compilers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in general, I agree with Timo :-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Colin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Ros-dev mailing list >>>>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ros-dev mailing list >>> Ros-dev@reactos.org >>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ros-dev mailing list >> Ros-dev@reactos.org >> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
