subject:"\"RE\\\: Downloaded 4D app\\\: structure file in read only mode\""

Thanks a lot, Tim.

This worked for me.

My app is unsigned. (I do not have an Apple Developer ID)

My "App" when it appeared after being "unzipped" happens to sit in a folder 
with some other files. The zipped file is a folder with the App and a couple 
other files. That just happens to be how I distributed it. Call that folder A

First I tried putting the zipped file in the Application folder and unzipping 
it there and trying to run the App from the folder (A) that it is distributed 
in. That did not work. At this point that folder (A) is a subfolder of the 
Applications folder. And the App is sitting in this subfolder of the 
Applications folder. The magic does not extend into a subfolder.

Then I took the unzipped App itself and took it from its created subfolder(A) 
and put it directly in the Applications folder. Then it DID work. I am very 
grateful to having been pointed to this solution.

Now, for my users, I have to include an additional layer of explanation but at 
least it is doable and I do not have to tell them to do something obscure with 
Terminal or whatever.

Once it has been run once, I can take that App and put it back in the folder A 
and it will continue to work. In fact, I can put it anywhere and it will run. 
Just like any application you might have. Putting apps in the Application 
folder has always been an arbitrary sensible thing to do, but not required. 
Just like putting pictures in the Pictures folder.

This is the first time to my knowledge that the Application folder has some 
special magic to it.

The App will not initially run from the Downloads folder. As best I can tell, 
it will not run from ANY folder other than the Application folder for that 
initial launch. And it cannot be in a subfolder of the Applications folder. It 
has to first be run from the Applications folder itself. 

After that, the App can be put anywhere as best I can tell. . 

I have other apps that I distribute via the Internet using another programming 
environment. (Xojo). Those apps do not have this same problem. The recipient 
can run them from anywhere. So 4D has some other ingredient that allows it to 
be locked up.

This all applies currently to 4D apps downloaded from the Internet. I could 
send someone the zipped 4D file in an email message and currently the recipient 
would not run into any trouble running it from where ever they want.

> On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:04 AM, Timothy Penner  wrote:
> 
> Solution is to move it to the /Applications/ directory after unzipping it.

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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

2016-11-14 Thread Peter Mew

Have I read this correctly?
If I write a small standalone app, for a friend, zip it and send it to him,
At some time in the future, there will be an Mac OS version which will say
the equivalent of "I'm sorry Dave, I cant let you do that".
Has the world of Apple gone mad?
-pm

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Timothy Penner  wrote:

> > actually - what I was pointing out is that Apple is doing all of this
> security on applications which are (supposedly) 'safe', as in they have
> been signed, presumably by Apple itself.
> > What are they doing to apps that are not signed?
>
> ^ My thoughts exactly... If the signed code (safer of the two) is being
> quarantined to a read only environment, then just imagine the restrictions
> Apple will put on unsigned code.
>
> > ANd is this the next step in forcing all applications t use the "app
> store" and the forced end of most "free form" programming?  (4D databases
> would fall into this category)
>
> ^ We will just have to wait and see what Apple changes next
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Tim PENNER
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

> actually - what I was pointing out is that Apple is doing all of this 
> security on applications which are (supposedly) 'safe', as in they have been 
> signed, presumably by Apple itself.
> What are they doing to apps that are not signed?

^ My thoughts exactly... If the signed code (safer of the two) is being 
quarantined to a read only environment, then just imagine the restrictions 
Apple will put on unsigned code.

> ANd is this the next step in forcing all applications t use the "app store" 
> and the forced end of most "free form" programming?  (4D databases would fall 
> into this category)

^ We will just have to wait and see what Apple changes next

Kind Regards,

Tim PENNER
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

actually - what I was pointing out is that Apple is doing all of this 
security on applications which are (supposedly) 'safe', as in they have 
been signed, presumably by Apple itself.

What are they doing to apps that are not signed?

ANd is this the next step in forcing all applications t use the "app 
store" and the forced end of most "free form" programming?  (4D 
databases would fall into this category)




On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:13:14 +0100, Timothy Penner wrote:
> Hi Chip,
> 
>> also notice this si specifically referencing "Signed Applications"
> 
> Yes this is information came from Apple's changes to Gatekeeper, and 
> is referenced in the documentation for code signing under the 
> "Shipping your signed code" section.
> 
> Although, if you think it doesn't/shouldn't apply to non-signed app, 
> well, I don't think that Apple's gatekeeper would provide a 
> less-secure environment for non-signed apps, so whether or not your 
> app is signed, it probably should not be running from the Downloads 
> directory.
> 
> -Tim
> 
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

Hi Chip,

> also notice this si specifically referencing "Signed Applications"

Yes this is information came from Apple's changes to Gatekeeper, and is 
referenced in the documentation for code signing under the "Shipping your 
signed code" section.

Although, if you think it doesn't/shouldn't apply to non-signed app, well, I 
don't think that Apple's gatekeeper would provide a less-secure environment for 
non-signed apps, so whether or not your app is signed, it probably should not 
be running from the Downloads directory.

-Tim

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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

also notice this si specifically referencing "Signed Applications"

On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 19:36:28 +0100, Timothy Penner wrote:
> Sorry Chip, I don’t know, I was paraphrasing the docs:
> 
https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17
> 
> "This also applies to apps installed via ZIP or other archive formats 
> or apps downloaded to the Downloads directory: ask the user to drag 
> the app to /Applications and launch it from there."
> 
> Full quote:
> --
> Shipping your Signed Code
> The preferred way to ship a signed app is via the Mac App Store. The 
> Mac App Store provides a secure channel for app delivery and 
> installation that requires minimal action on the part of the user.
> 
> For distribution outside of the Mac App Store, the preferred options 
> are to use a signed disk image (DMG) or signed installer package. 
> Signing these allows validation of the contents and their source. ZIP 
> archives may also be used, but this is discouraged.
> 
> If using a disk image to ship an app, users should drag the app from 
> the image to its desired installation location (usually 
> /Applications) before launching it. This also applies to apps 
> installed via ZIP or other archive formats or apps downloaded to the 
> Downloads directory: ask the user to drag the app to /Applications 
> and launch it from there.
> 
> This practice avoids an attack where a validly signed app launched 
> from a disk image, ZIP archive, or ISO (CD/DVD) image can load 
> malicious code or content from untrusted locations on the same image 
> or archive. Starting with macOS Sierra, running a newly-downloaded 
> app from a disk image, archive, or the Downloads directory will cause 
> Gatekeeper to isolate that app at a unspecified read-only location in 
> the filesystem. This will prevent the app from accessing code or 
> content using relative paths.
> 
> Do not ship apps using ISO images. There is no provision for signing these.
> 
> Important: Starting with macOS Sierra, only XIP archives signed by 
> Apple will be expanded. Developers who have been using XIP archives 
> will need to move to using signed installer packages or disk images.
> --
> 
> ^Notice above it specifically mentions moving the application to the 
> /Applications directory
> 
> -Tim
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

I should have also highlighted this quote from:

"Starting with macOS Sierra, running a newly-downloaded app from a disk image, 
archive, or the Downloads directory will cause Gatekeeper to isolate that app 
at a unspecified read-only location in the filesystem. This will prevent the 
app from accessing code or content using relative paths."

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17

-Tim
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

Sorry Chip, I don’t know, I was paraphrasing the docs:
https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17

"This also applies to apps installed via ZIP or other archive formats or apps
downloaded to the Downloads directory: ask the user to drag the app to
/Applications and launch it from there."

Full quote:
--
Shipping your Signed Code
The preferred way to ship a signed app is via the Mac App Store. The Mac App
Store provides a secure channel for app delivery and installation that requires
minimal action on the part of the user.

For distribution outside of the Mac App Store, the preferred options are to use
a signed disk image (DMG) or signed installer package. Signing these allows
validation of the contents and their source. ZIP archives may also be used, but
this is discouraged.

If using a disk image to ship an app, users should drag the app from the image
to its desired installation location (usually /Applications) before launching
it. This also applies to apps installed via ZIP or other archive formats or
apps downloaded to the Downloads directory: ask the user to drag the app to
/Applications and launch it from there.

This practice avoids an attack where a validly signed app launched from a disk
image, ZIP archive, or ISO (CD/DVD) image can load malicious code or content
from untrusted locations on the same image or archive. Starting with macOS
Sierra, running a newly-downloaded app from a disk image, archive, or the
Downloads directory will cause Gatekeeper to isolate that app at a unspecified
read-only location in the filesystem. This will prevent the app from accessing
code or content using relative paths.

Do not ship apps using ISO images. There is no provision for signing these.

Important: Starting with macOS Sierra, only XIP archives signed by Apple will
be expanded. Developers who have been using XIP archives will need to move to
using signed installer packages or disk images.
--

^Notice above it specifically mentions moving the application to the
/Applications directory

-Tim
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

does this work regardless of where the file is moved to?
i.e the desktop?

On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 19:04:03 +0100, Timothy Penner wrote:
> Starting with 10.12.x Sierra, if you download an app.zip and unzip it 
> then run it from the Downloads directory, Apple will quarantine the 
> app into a Read-Only environment. Solution is to move it to the 
> /Applications/ directory after unzipping it.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Tim PENNER
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

Starting with 10.12.x Sierra, if you download an app.zip and unzip it then run 
it from the Downloads directory, Apple will quarantine the app into a Read-Only 
environment. Solution is to move it to the /Applications/ directory after 
unzipping it.

Kind Regards,

Tim PENNER
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

2016-11-14 Thread Keisuke Miyako

it is not a classic unix file permission,
it is an apple extended file attribute.

https://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man1/xattr.1.html

> 2016/11/15 2:10、Robert Livingston  のメール：
> Non-quarantined version does not have this (Obviously because it was not 
> downloaded from anywhere)



宮古 啓介
セールス・エンジニア

株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
〒150-0043
東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
Tel: 03-6427-8441
Fax: 03-6427-8449

keisuke.miy...@4d.com
www.4D.com/JP

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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

I did look at this because I thought that the problem might be here but not. In 
this regard (Sharing & Permissions) the "quarantined" and the "non-quarantined" 
versions of the zip file are the same. 

There is another section in the Get Info panel -- "More Info" where there is a 
bit of "metadata" called Where from: which tells you from where the 
"quarantined" version was downloaded.

Non-quarantined version does not have this (Obviously because it was not 
downloaded from anywhere)

> On Nov 14, 2016, at 8:26 AM, Peter Bozek  wrote:
> 
> Can you check the access rights you have? Click on application and select
> menu File -> Get Info (or command - I.) At the bottom you will find a
> Permissions tab with table showing who has the rights to read and write
> rights. From your description, it seems you have only read but not write
> rights.

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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

2016-11-14 Thread Randy Jaynes

As I mentioned, unfortunately re-enabling the “from anywhere” option is not 
enough.

Apparently there is some ‘quarantine flag’ that gets set in the application 
itself.

Even after enabling ‘from anywhere’ on this machine, then installing, then 
running the app (leaving the Finder window open in the background), I get to 
our login window, enter credentials (yeah…looks like everything is working), 
and then suddenly my application disappears from the Finder window.

As soon as I try to do anything in our open windows, 4D crashes hard because 
the application package is no longer where it started and apparently those 
paths are important to 4D engine.

I repeated this exercise a few times. It was kind of fun.

NOT.

Randy

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Senior Programmer and Customer Support

http://printpoint.com • (845) 359-0298 • PrintPoint, Inc • 57 Ludlow Lane • 
Palisades, NY 10964 

> On Nov 14, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> wrote:
> 
> ok - 
> SO some 'jacking'
> 
> how about:
> open database, see datafile is locked (read only)
> Ask user for admin user/password, like a standard installer
> Use LEP to execute the terminal command to re-enable 'from anywhere'
> copy the structure and data to where you want it (or ask user)
> then turn off the option (if you are being a good computer install 
> citizen)
> 
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 10:57:52 -0500, Randy Jaynes wrote:
>> 
>> It’s definitely new behavior with Sierra. Apple has finally removed 
>> the “Allow from anywhere” option in the Preferences > Security & 
>> Privacy page, although there is a Terminal command we can use to 
>> bring it back.
>> 
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

2016-11-14 Thread Peter Bozek

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Robert Livingston 
wrote:

> So somehow even after you have said that you want to open the file, you
> cannot. In some fashion 4D sees it locked and no matter how you answer the
> dialogs you cannot get the application to run.
>

Can you check the access rights you have? Click on application and select
menu File -> Get Info (or command - I.) At the bottom you will find a
Permissions tab with table showing who has the rights to read and write
rights. From your description, it seems you have only read but not write
rights.

It would be strange, though, as unarchiving ZIP should reset file
permissions to original state (which was read-write.) Maybe macOS assigns
ownership  of applications from downloaded zip archives to guest, and not
to you. Have not seen that, but I am still running 10.10.

-- 

Peter Bozek
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

2016-11-14 Thread Keith Culotta

If you don't mind an installer package rather than a Zip, this got around that 
problem for me.  It requires your Apple developer number (ABC...).  I run the 
app at least once from the Applications folder, and make no resource folder, 
etc... changes after that.  Then run this from the terminal.  

productbuild --component /Applications/MyApp.app /Applications MyApp.pkg --sign 
"Developer ID Installer: A Name (ABCDEFGHIJ)"

Some translation:
productbuild --component /WhereTheAppIsNow /InstallingPutsItHere 
installer.pkg.is .created.here --sign "Developer ID 
Installer: KeychainName (ABCDEFGHIJ)"

See man productbuild in the Terminal.

Keith - CDI

> On Nov 14, 2016, at 9:45 AM, Robert Livingston  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your input.
> 
> But I have tried using a DMG of the application and the same problem occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2016, at 7:38 AM, spiffyguy  wrote:
>> 
>> Apple may change the permission from zip files as you experienced.  Perhaps
>> for mac it would be better to make a DMG of your app that people can
>> download from Amazon AWS.
>> 
>> They would get the "Are you sure you want to open..." alert when they opened
>> the DMG but your permissions would be fine inside the DMG.  Just have
>> instructions for them to copy it to the Applications folder or wherever you
>> would like them to run it.
> 
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

ok - 
SO some 'jacking'

how about:
open database, see datafile is locked (read only)
Ask user for admin user/password, like a standard installer
Use LEP to execute the terminal command to re-enable 'from anywhere'
copy the structure and data to where you want it (or ask user)
then turn off the option (if you are being a good computer install 
citizen)

On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 10:57:52 -0500, Randy Jaynes wrote:
> 
> It’s definitely new behavior with Sierra. Apple has finally removed 
> the “Allow from anywhere” option in the Preferences > Security & 
> Privacy page, although there is a Terminal command we can use to 
> bring it back.
> 
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

2016-11-14 Thread Randy Jaynes

>   a. Are you sure you want to open the structure file in read only mode? This 
> dialog has a 4D icon on it.
> 
>   b. If you say OK, a second message will appear: "you cannot open this 
> database because the data file (or one of its segments) is locked. 
> 
>   c. Then you get an error message.

Robert,

I’m battling through this myself. It appears the issue here is that the 
‘quarantine’ that is being mentioned is OS X literally moving our application 
to a temporary DMG and run from there. This DMG is a read only drive, so the 
structure is locked, and so is the data file if it is part of the application 
package.

This has not been happening to us on all Sierra upgrades, but I have one now 
that no matter what I do or where I put the application, it is moved from where 
I am running it.

From all the reading I’ve done in the last week, it appears my only option is 
signing the app itself, or as mentioned here, possibly the DMG that we use to 
send our app.

It’s definitely new behavior with Sierra. Apple has finally removed the “Allow 
from anywhere” option in the Preferences > Security & Privacy page, although 
there is a Terminal command we can use to bring it back.

Unfortunately, that still doesn’t stop this quarantining from happening.

I just wish it would happen on all Sierra systems so there was at least some 
consistency.

Randy

--
Randy Jaynes
Senior Programmer and Customer Support

http://printpoint.com • (845) 359-0298 • PrintPoint, Inc • 57 Ludlow Lane • 
Palisades, NY 10964 


 

> On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Robert Livingston  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Keisuke Miyako
> 
> 
> The resource that you pointed me to is called macOS Code Signing in Depth.  
> Sadly it is out of my depth. 
> 
> 
> Apparently, as you bring a file back from the Internet it is "quarantined" in 
> some way. On the Mac we are familiar with the warning dialog that "such and 
> such is from an unidentified developer; are you sure you want to open" 
> 
> I have never had problems with this if I answered this dialog with the 
> statement that I understood and was willing to open.
> 
> But now after I say that I want to open the file not withstanding, I get 
> these messages:
> 
> 
> 
>   a. Are you sure you want to open the structure file in read only mode? This 
> dialog has a 4D icon on it.
> 
>   b. If you say OK, a second message will appear: "you cannot open this 
> database because the data file (or one of its segments) is locked. 
> 
>   c. Then you get an error message.
> 
> 
> So somehow even after you have said that you want to open the file, you 
> cannot. In some fashion 4D sees it locked and no matter how you answer the 
> dialogs you cannot get the application to run.
> 
> In my experience, this was not true a couple months ago. I do not understand 
> the change. I have installed Sierra in the interim and I wondered whether 
> that might be responsible.
> 
> 
> There seem to be some complex (for me) things you can do in Terminal that 
> might get a file unquarantined but this again is over my head.
> 
> So from my perspective, this is hugely annoying and I do not see any "easy" 
> work-around.
> 
> I can understand being warned that a file was downloaded from the Internet. 
> But why, after you have acknowledged this and saying that you wish to proceed 
> does 4D prevent this?
> 
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2016, at 6:23 AM, Keisuke Miyako  wrote:
>> 
>> time for some reading:
>> 
>> https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> having said that, the concept of marking downloaded zip files is not a new 
>> thing.
>> 
>> Google "com.apple.quarantine"
> 
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

Thanks for your input.

But I have tried using a DMG of the application and the same problem occurs.




> On Nov 14, 2016, at 7:38 AM, spiffyguy  wrote:
> 
> Apple may change the permission from zip files as you experienced.  Perhaps
> for mac it would be better to make a DMG of your app that people can
> download from Amazon AWS.
> 
> They would get the "Are you sure you want to open..." alert when they opened
> the DMG but your permissions would be fine inside the DMG.  Just have
> instructions for them to copy it to the Applications folder or wherever you
> would like them to run it.

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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

2016-11-14 Thread spiffyguy

Apple may change the permission from zip files as you experienced.  Perhaps
for mac it would be better to make a DMG of your app that people can
download from Amazon AWS.

They would get the "Are you sure you want to open..." alert when they opened
the DMG but your permissions would be fine inside the DMG.  Just have
instructions for them to copy it to the Applications folder or wherever you
would like them to run it.

This SO post is a little old but relevant to help you make a DMG of your
app:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/367751/creating-a-dmg

- Matt




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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode