Re: UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK
HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- I favour neither of the two. So-called revenge never solved a thing... On 10 Dec 01, at 22:31, Rolf Martens wrote: HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- At 14:32 2001-12-10 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's hope that the present-day Najibullahs, whether they are quislings of the Russian new tsarists or of the US imperialists (or of both), will meet with the same fate, and not only those in Afghanistan either. Rolf M. I believe that this form of justice was invented in the wild west... Well, yes, I see what you mean. That crook Najibullah didn't get a proper trial. I hold that killing him just like that was a good thing anyway - the facts in that case were very clear to all. Proper trials *are* better of course. This is my opinion too. My infamous ex-countryman Vidkun Quisling, for instance, that original colleague of Najibullah, did get one, back in 1945-46, and was duly hung, according to all rules and proper procedures. Some more of those people really should have been too. Rolf M. ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84x2u.a9WB2D Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK]
HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [Posted: 09.10.96] Note / Anmerkung / Note / Nota / Anmaerkning: On the UNITE! / VEREINIGT EUCH! / UNISSEZ-VOUS! / !UNIOS! / FOERENA ER! Info en/de/fr/es/se series: See information on the last page / Siehe Information auf der letzten Seite / Verrez information a* la dernie*re page / Ver informacio'n en la u'ltima pa'gina / Se information paa sista sidan. INTRO NOTE: Two recent UNITE! Info items, #16en and #17en, of 04.10.96 and 05.10.96 respectively, have been dealing indirectly and in part also directly with the question of the aggression by Soviet so- cial-imperialism (which today no longer is in existence as such) against a third-world country, Afghanistan, in 1979-1989. This item too, and now more or less wholly, will be dedicated to the same theme. Why? Why do I hold this question to be such a rela- tively important one? The social-imperialists' overt aggression in Afghanistan in '79- '89 today is already history. But it's still something which shows up with quite extraordinary clarity the sharp difference between Marxism, on the one hand, and revisionism, on the other. And the phenomenon of revisionism, that's one of the most impor- tant political phenomena of all in our century. What is revisionism? It's Marxism, socialism, proletarian poli- tics in *words* but bourgeois politics, even imperialism, in *deeds*. A discussion on this phenomenon and its root causes follows in one of the chapters below. The openly bourgeois media, in the Western countries, for in- stance, of course never use the word revisionism, at least not in this important political sense. To them, everybody *is* a Communist who has proclaimed him/her/self to be one, and the same goes for parties - indeed, such revisionist parties as no longer even find it tactically wise even to try to pose as Communist still continue to be called so by the openly bour- geois media. This of course is done in order to make it more difficult for the masses of people to distinguish between actual Communism on the one hand and revisionism on the other, and to disredit the very idea of Communism. For Marxists, naturally it's vital to draw a sharp dividing line between the genuine and the faked (notwithstanding the fact that it sometimes may be difficult to see which is which) and to enlighten everybody on this. An infamous example of a state ruled by revisionists is the Chi- na of today, which, as all (who know some elementary facts of history) can see, is completely different from the earlier, so- cialist China which was guided by Mao Zedong's genuinely Marxist political line. An even more infamous example of such a state was the Soviet Union of yesterday (from approximately the mid- 50:s until 1991). The aggression of that state against Afghanistan exposed to the whole world, even more clearly than its earlier crimes, the true character of it, and importantly contributed to its eventual downfall. Just as the US war of aggression in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the late '60:s and early '70:s very clearly and to the whole world exposed the true character of US imperialism, and that of its hackneyed supporters too, so did the Afghan war of the So- viet Union expose the true character of *that* state and of *its* hackneyed supporters. This was so, despite the fact that in both of those cases of superpower aggression there was a certain amount of meddling on the part of the other superpower too, which tried to further its own interests under the guise of supporting the resistance of the respective country against the invader and his puppets. After the invading Soviet troops were forced to leave Afghani- stan, in 1989, internal strife has continued in that country, undoubtedly to a great extent caused and aggravated by continued interference by both superpowers. One of the warring factions, the Taleban, recently conquered the capital and i.a. executed one of the earlier leaders of the Soviet social-imperialists' puppet regime in the country, Najibullah. This occasioned a heated exchange among some people who all are calling themselves Marxists. I on my part expressed, on the Jefferson Village Virginia Marx- ism list, my opinion that this at least was a just action on the part of the Taleban. Some others protested against this, and in quite violent terms too. They made clear their staunch support for the earlier actions undertaken by the Soviet Union in Af- ghanistan and for those of its puppet regime. How could someone who *opposed* these very benficial and civilizing deeds even be allowed on a Marxism list at all, how could he indeed be con- sidered a civilized person? In this direction went one trend of thought. This discussion, or whatever you might call it, is the immediate reason why I've now dedicated some Info items to the question of events in Afghanistan 1979-1989. The present one contains the following more or less brief
Re: UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK
HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- You are spouting absolute nonsense, and indeed attempting to justify and support US. agressesion, as well as supporting Imperialism. The Russians did not Invade them on 7/12/79, in spite of what Jimmy Human Rights Carter said at the time since a major Covert Operation had started, under Carter's signature on 3/7/79. Quite clearly the government of that country was entitled to ask for assistance, as did Nicaragua, Angola, Mozambique etc. etc. But in any case was being subjected to an unparralleled Covert Operation in its scale. The country always has had the most enormous strategic significance throughout history and since the days of the Great Game, and this point must be grasped. Your ASC. and demonstrations were Front-organisations designed to prevent protests/ gain support for the American action. We have encountered similar organisations in Britian supporting all aspects of the attack on jugoslavia, all the way through to the attack on Macedonia, which incidentally was carried out by the same islamic fundamentalist paramilitaries used against Afghanistan. You are in fact openly supporting the policies and actionds of the US. and of Imperialism --- Rolf Martens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [Posted: 09.10.96] Note / Anmerkung / Note / Nota / Anmaerkning: On the UNITE! / VEREINIGT EUCH! / UNISSEZ-VOUS! / !UNIOS! / FOERENA ER! Info en/de/fr/es/se series: See information on the last page / Siehe Information auf der letzten Seite / Verrez information a* la dernie*re page / Ver informacio'n en la u'ltima pa'gina / Se information paa sista sidan. INTRO NOTE: Two recent UNITE! Info items, #16en and #17en, of 04.10.96 and 05.10.96 respectively, have been dealing indirectly and in part also directly with the question of the aggression by Soviet so- cial-imperialism (which today no longer is in existence as such) against a third-world country, Afghanistan, in 1979-1989. This item too, and now more or less wholly, will be dedicated to the same theme. Why? Why do I hold this question to be such a rela- tively important one? The social-imperialists' overt aggression in Afghanistan in '79- '89 today is already history. But it's still something which shows up with quite extraordinary clarity the sharp difference between Marxism, on the one hand, and revisionism, on the other. And the phenomenon of revisionism, that's one of the most impor- tant political phenomena of all in our century. What is revisionism? It's Marxism, socialism, proletarian poli- tics in *words* but bourgeois politics, even imperialism, in *deeds*. A discussion on this phenomenon and its root causes follows in one of the chapters below. The openly bourgeois media, in the Western countries, for in- stance, of course never use the word revisionism, at least not in this important political sense. To them, everybody *is* a Communist who has proclaimed him/her/self to be one, and the same goes for parties - indeed, such revisionist parties as no longer even find it tactically wise even to try to pose as Communist still continue to be called so by the openly bour- geois media. This of course is done in order to make it more difficult for the masses of people to distinguish between actual Communism on the one hand and revisionism on the other, and to disredit the very idea of Communism. For Marxists, naturally it's vital to draw a sharp dividing line between the genuine and the faked (notwithstanding the fact that it sometimes may be difficult to see which is which) and to enlighten everybody on this. An infamous example of a state ruled by revisionists is the Chi- na of today, which, as all (who know some elementary facts of history) can see, is completely different from the earlier, so- cialist China which was guided by Mao Zedong's genuinely Marxist political line. An even more infamous example of such a state was the Soviet Union of yesterday (from approximately the mid- 50:s until 1991). The aggression of that state against Afghanistan exposed to the whole world, even more clearly than its earlier crimes, the true character of it, and importantly contributed to its eventual downfall. Just as the US war of aggression in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the late '60:s and early '70:s very clearly and to the whole world exposed the true character of US imperialism, and that of its hackneyed supporters too, so did the Afghan war of the So- viet Union expose the true character of *that* state and of *its* hackneyed supporters. This was so, despite the fact that in both of those cases of superpower aggression there was a certain amount of meddling on the part of the other superpower too, which tried to further its own interests under the guise of
Re: UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK
HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- At 07:27 2001-12-10 -0800, Richard Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote You are spouting absolute nonsense, and indeed attempting to justify and support US. agressesion, as well as supporting Imperialism. The Russians did not Invade them on 7/12/79, in spite of what Jimmy Human Rights Carter said at the time since a major Covert Operation had started, under Carter's signature on 3/7/79. Quite clearly the government of that country was entitled to ask for assistance, as did Nicaragua, Angola, Mozambique etc. etc. Yes, of course, ASSISTANCE it was! An ASSISTANCE which meant that (as I repeat): ¤ 1.5 million Afghans were killed ¤ 5-6 million were forced to leave the country - the biggest refugee catastrophy in our time - and 1 million more forced to leave their homes, to become refugees in Afghanistan itself ¤ 7000 villages were annihilated and 5000 more seriously damaged ¤ between 10 million (UN estimate) and 60 million (other estimates) mines were laid throughout the country by the invaders ¤ these mines have so far caused 200,000 deaths and 400,000 maimings; they continue today to take a heavy toll and several decades will be required for their removal ¤ large parts of the vital and scarce forests were sys- tematically destroyed by the Soviet forces ¤ the infrastructure and the fields for agriculture were destroyed to a great extent What nice people it is who *support* this! What nice people it is who say that *opposing* this means supporting aggression by that other gangster, US imperialism! As I wrote back in 1996 too: [RM:] One of the warring factions, the Taleban, recently conquered the capital and i.a. executed one of the earlier leaders of the Soviet social-imperialists' puppet regime in the country, Najibullah. This occasioned a heated exchange among some people who all are calling themselves Marxists. I on my part expressed, on the Jefferson Village Virginia Marx- ism list, my opinion that this at least was a just action on the part of the Taleban Let's hope that the present-day Najibullahs, whether they are quislings of the Russian new tsarists or of the US imperialists (or of both), will meet with the same fate, and not only those in Afghanistan either. Rolf M. ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84x2u.a9WB2D Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK
HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- Let's hope that the present-day Najibullahs, whether they are quislings of the Russian new tsarists or of the US imperialists (or of both), will meet with the same fate, and not only those in Afghanistan either. Rolf M. I believe that this form of justice was invented in the wild west... On 10 Dec 01, at 16:57, Rolf Martens wrote: HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- At 07:27 2001-12-10 -0800, Richard Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote You are spouting absolute nonsense, and indeed attempting to justify and support US. agressesion, as well as supporting Imperialism. The Russians did not Invade them on 7/12/79, in spite of what Jimmy Human Rights Carter said at the time since a major Covert Operation had started, under Carter's signature on 3/7/79. Quite clearly the government of that country was entitled to ask for assistance, as did Nicaragua, Angola, Mozambique etc. etc. Yes, of course, ASSISTANCE it was! An ASSISTANCE which meant that (as I repeat): ¤ 1.5 million Afghans were killed ¤ 5-6 million were forced to leave the country - the biggest refugee catastrophy in our time - and 1 million more forced to leave their homes, to become refugees in Afghanistan itself ¤ 7000 villages were annihilated and 5000 more seriously damaged ¤ between 10 million (UN estimate) and 60 million (other estimates) mines were laid throughout the country by the invaders ¤ these mines have so far caused 200,000 deaths and 400,000 maimings; they continue today to take a heavy toll and several decades will be required for their removal ¤ large parts of the vital and scarce forests were sys- tematically destroyed by the Soviet forces ¤ the infrastructure and the fields for agriculture were destroyed to a great extent What nice people it is who *support* this! What nice people it is who say that *opposing* this means supporting aggression by that other gangster, US imperialism! As I wrote back in 1996 too: [RM:] One of the warring factions, the Taleban, recently conquered the capital and i.a. executed one of the earlier leaders of the Soviet social-imperialists' puppet regime in the country, Najibullah. This occasioned a heated exchange among some people who all are calling themselves Marxists. I on my part expressed, on the Jefferson Village Virginia Marx- ism list, my opinion that this at least was a just action on the part of the Taleban Let's hope that the present-day Najibullahs, whether they are quislings of the Russian new tsarists or of the US imperialists (or of both), will meet with the same fate, and not only those in Afghanistan either. Rolf M. ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84x2u.a9WB2D Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK]
HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- At 10:57 2001-12-10 -0500, mart [EMAIL PROTECTED] , alias Thomas P. Murrey, wrote: Hi Richard, I know this Rolf guy. He is a professional TROLL and this is his stock and trade - making ridiculous statement and then getting people to respond to him. It doesn't matter what you say to this guy or how many ways you prove him wrong. He has tried to wreck several other e-groups with this tactic and was eventually, thrown off them and banned. Unfortunately, not before he literally drove away much of the membership with his endless rants and tirade that escalated to him making personal threats and publishing ridiculous statements and personal information about other group members. His goal is to clog up the lists with posts by and about him. Apparently, he has now targeted this list. I suggest the best tactic would be to ignore him and not respond to his statements. You can't win with this guy and it only feeds his warped ego and his need to feel important. mart What, Thomas P. mart Najibullah-2 Murray? No ban-ban-ban! any more, as in your first reply?? Now that you're even already getting support for this from Barry Najibullah-3 Stoller too?? You don't think that this quite openly-Brezhnev/Ashcroft-type shut'em up! line will work, after all? That it's too revealing, concerning you and your phonyleftist ilk? Well, that's somewhat s-mart of you anyway, miserable Murray-Burray- Najibullah. Rolf M. ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84x2u.a9WB2D Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: UNITE! Info #19en: 1/4 Social-imperialism's Afghan war [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK
HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK --- At 14:32 2001-12-10 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's hope that the present-day Najibullahs, whether they are quislings of the Russian new tsarists or of the US imperialists (or of both), will meet with the same fate, and not only those in Afghanistan either. Rolf M. I believe that this form of justice was invented in the wild west... Well, yes, I see what you mean. That crook Najibullah didn't get a proper trial. I hold that killing him just like that was a good thing anyway - the facts in that case were very clear to all. Proper trials *are* better of course. This is my opinion too. My infamous ex-countryman Vidkun Quisling, for instance, that original colleague of Najibullah, did get one, back in 1945-46, and was duly hung, according to all rules and proper procedures. Some more of those people really should have been too. Rolf M. ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84x2u.a9WB2D Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
