Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread John Luke Gibson 
I also want to apologize for how horribly intimidating those sets of
parenthesizes must be for one whom has never seen one of those used
like that before outside of advanced and very nerd-y philosophy xD

On 4/17/17, John Luke Gibson  wrote:
> Yes, however don't discount that, in substituting out the need for
> these authorities, one has to take into account that every individual
> contributing should have some say in how much scarcity there is for
> the resource they are contributing. That is the only way to "not need"
> these authorities.
>
> On 4/17/17, Adam Van Ymeren  wrote:
>> I think I understand. So the issue is with the identity of the authority
>> defining the addresses rather than the scarcity.  IPv6 has enough
>> addresses.
>>  I don't think we need a new technology for addressing machines.  I think
>> your issue is more with the authorities in charge of assigning addresses.
>>
>> I think the two are separate issues, one technological and one
>> regulatory/political.
>>
>>   Original Message
>> From: eaterjo...@gmail.com
>> Sent: April 17, 2017 12:07 AM
>> To: arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
>> Reply-to: arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
>> Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone
>>
>> Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
>> which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
>> definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
>> mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
>> favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
>> case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
>> artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
>> someone else.
>>
>> Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
>> like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
>> rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
>> simply talk (or send messages) to them.
>>
>> _
>>
>> Addresses are only as intrinsically scarce as the physical locations
>> they can point (the reason for-which I would prefer to use the term
>> Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
>> Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
>> location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
>> unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
>> addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
>> abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
>> viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
>> might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
>> possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
>> messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
>> (especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
>> messages-to-be-delivered-added), with being an idea of "capitalism". I
>> would like to emphasize that this is not a concept of either
>> "capitalism" or "socialism" {(or any of their ilk currently being
>> formed outside of the occident) ; (both of which rely on fairly novel
>> social constructs of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary
>> fund"-management)} but-rather simple self-sustainability. Of course,
>> if at a given point the collective infrastructure {(or atleast
>> relevant parts thereof) ; (with-which many people have agreed is
>> acceptable for delivering messages according to a system of
>> determining which messages are given the most priority that they have
>> agreed is acceptable)} is under-strained (or under-utilized, if you
>> will) according to it's maximum potential for helping people
>> communicate, it should probably begin to deliver messages "gratis" or
>> simply out of the goodness of doing so which is something a
>> noob can plainly see the bitcoin protocol tried to do by rewarding
>> it's bitcoin miners, but failed to realize: only sentient beings can
>> effectively measure the potential meaning to be had in helping another
>> sentient being or the so-termed "goodness" in doing so; that No
>> protocol can account for what it's like to help someone specific or
>> every being one can; that It should be up to every individual exactly
>> who they help or what kind of Sybils they help or to what degree and
>> for what purpose. We are fundamentally human, and we must remember our
>> value is in our decision.
>>
>> On 4/16/17, John Luke Gibson  wrote:
>>> I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
>>> to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
>>> begin reading it.
>>>
>>> On 4/16/17, John Luke Gibson  wrote:
 Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
 which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
 definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an

Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread John Luke Gibson 
Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
someone else.

Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
simply talk (or send messages) to them.

_

Addresses are only as intrinsically scarce as the physical locations
they can point (the reason for-which I would prefer to use the term
Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
(especially [or particularly, if you will] with the volume of
messages-to-be-delivered-added), with being an idea of "capitalism". I
would like to emphasize that this is not a concept of either
"capitalism" or "socialism" {(or any of their ilk currently being
formed outside of the occident) ; (both of which rely on fairly novel
social constructs of a "stock" and/or banking/"monetary
fund"-management)} but-rather simple self-sustainability. Of course,
if at a given point the collective infrastructure {(or atleast
relevant parts thereof) ; (with-which many people have agreed is
acceptable for delivering messages according to a system of
determining which messages are given the most priority that they have
agreed is acceptable)} is under-strained (or under-utilized, if you
will) according to it's maximum potential for helping people
communicate, it should probably begin to deliver messages "gratis" or
simply out of the goodness of doing so which is something a
noob can plainly see the bitcoin protocol tried to do by rewarding
it's bitcoin miners, but failed to realize: only sentient beings can
effectively measure the potential meaning to be had in helping another
sentient being or the so-termed "goodness" in doing so; that No
protocol can account for what it's like to help someone specific or
every being one can; that It should be up to every individual exactly
who they help or what kind of Sybils they help or to what degree and
for what purpose. We are fundamentally human, and we must remember our
value is in our decision.

On 4/16/17, John Luke Gibson  wrote:
> I apologize in advance for any duplicate messages, but I feel the need
> to touch up that post a bit, as people already have had the chance to
> begin reading it.
>
> On 4/16/17, John Luke Gibson  wrote:
>> Well, in this context artificial is often meant to describe scarcity
>> which is the result of a decision. I would probably adapt that
>> definition for my purposes, to say a decision made by an identifiable
>> mint (a whole decision by a group or a decision partially weighted in
>> favor of any group) on behalf of people with this credit (in this
>> case, credit for having that address)... the key aspect being
>> artificial meaning (for me atleast) the scarcity was decided for
>> someone else.
>>
>> Better defining addresses in this case, bitcoin addresses are more
>> like identities (I like the term Sybil used as a noun, in this case)
>> rather than addresses, because we don't go to them so much as we
>> simply talk (or send messages) to them.
>>
>> _
>>
>> Addresses are only intrinsically as scarce as physical locations they
>> can point to physical location (which I would prefer to use the term
>> Sybil [or at least "identity"] to describe anything which would
>> Normally be described as an address which Doesn't point to physical
>> location). Additionally they can be considered scarce in that it is
>> unsustainable to deliver messages to individual possessors of
>> addresses, whom don't help the delivery of messages (atleast, as an
>> abstract concept). So, ultimately, (at the very least) the degree of
>> viability of addresses needs to be limited for practical reasons. Some
>> might associate the suggestion of limiting this viability to
>> possessors of addresses who facilitate the delivery delivery of
>> messages to a higher degree than they strain the delivery of messages
>> {(especially

Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread Adam Van Ymeren 

Why do you want artificial scarcity of addresses?  Either via bitcoin type 
system or some authority I don't see any benefit to artificial address scarcity.


  Original Message  
From: eaterjo...@gmail.com
Sent: April 16, 2017 8:45 PM
To: arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Reply-to: arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

Ultimately, isolation of the sim card or otherwise modem, should
probably be the biggest concern. There are ethical concerns around
artificial scarcity from telephone numbers and, to be fair, ipv4
addresses, (metaphorical mints thereof having absolute decision-making
authority giving infinite leverage as "benevolent dictators" who can
simply crash everything if something doesn't go their way) that should
be considered before dedicating too much priority to this task.

A more perfect solution (longterm) would be a network with
self-modulating scarcity of addresses, in a fashion reminiscent of


bitcoin. However it would be prudent to construct a language the
anti-thesis of esoteric (top-down, expressing this anti-thesis on all
levels of design) to describe the underlining software in and make the
networking protocol more accepting of contrarian behavior.

If this sounds like a lot, consider that for a person with no
experience computer design, it should be easier to learn as they go
when designing this, than to pick up all the computer design wisdom
necessary to retrofit or "reverse-engineer" literally self-described
as esoteric systems. Is there not a fundament to computers, computer
design, and network engineering, that is intuitive to beings not
fortunate enough to be included in the circles of any so-called
esotericism of any kind?

I apologize if my reliance on certain obscure terms, without
interchanging any alternative phrasings made this email seem
convoluted and difficult to understand.

On 4/16/17, GaCuest  wrote:
> El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
> (l...@lkcl.net) escribió:
>> ---
>> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:05 AM, GaCuest wrote:
>> > El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
>> > (l...@lkcl.net) escribió:
>> >> the idea there is to use an LCD that has *dual* control interfaces:
>> >> SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
>> >
>> > Something like this?:
>> > http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
>>
>> ... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
>> panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
>>
>
> Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)
>
> I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
>  (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
> I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
> be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.
>
> On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
> the audio with good quality?
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] About, the rk processor.

2017-04-16 Thread zap 

On 04/16/2017 06:53 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:56 PM, zap  wrote:
>> something interesting I saw is that in the update picking a processor,
>> it shows rk3188 as the rockchip processor you were going to reverse
>> engineer. on the other hand, your rhombus-tech link shows that your
>> looking at rk3288?
>>
>>
>> Not to be annoying constantly, but I am curious are you looking at one
>> or both?
>  just the 3288.  the 3188 i considered but it's older, cortex a9 based
> so is *really* power-hungry. i got a dev board (ok an IPTV box),
> opened it up, immediately noted the heat-sink on the 3188 and went
> "absolutely not".
>
>  the 3288 on the other hand was the first commercial A17 (i believe)
> which is a sort-of uprated version of the Cortex A7 - something like
> that, anyway.
>
>  also it can do HDMI 2.0, 4k video playback (if you push the
> dual-channel memory up to a stonking 1600mhz that is...) and it kicks
> the stuffing out of the high-end variants of the intel atom.
>
>  more than that, its popularity in chromebooks has meant that the 3288
> has a *lot* of modding and OS messing-about behind it.  that's a good
> thing in that it's well-understood, but it does make it a f*g
> nuisance to try and find decent instructions.  i've given up on using
> google search and now go directly to #linux-rockchip on freenode.
> people there know what they're doing.

Glad to hear it! The rk3288 does sound faster judging by the specs and
considering what you said, just now I mean, it is the better choice.

I wonder how fast it will be with the eoma standard?  Probably at least
4x faster than the fastest processor on that "x200 libreboot device I am
using."

Yeah I know its not as good as what your planning, but I can wait for
ya. This is good news. 

Also, it is a quad core processor and uses very little wattage hah.


I am curious by the way, how much does the intel crap use for wattage
traditionally...

Probably an insane amount I imagine. :)

(I am glad because that will give more power to arm in the future.) ;)

Thanks for the info hehe... I look forward to debian 9 on that.


> l.
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread GaCuest 
El 16 de abril de 2017 a las 12:42:43, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
(l...@lkcl.net) escribió:
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:05 AM, GaCuest wrote:
> > El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
> > (l...@lkcl.net) escribió:
> >> the idea there is to use an LCD that has *dual* control interfaces:
> >> SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
> >
> > Something like this?: 
> > http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
>
> ... exactly like that :) except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
> panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.
>

Yes, it was an example, I prefer CTP :)

I think the idea that a cell phone can work without EOMA68
 (for basic functions) is a very good idea, but is it difficult to do?
I want to say because you have to do many things 2 times to
be able to work with EOMA68 and without EOMA68.

On the other hand, is the STM32F072 capable of handling
the audio with good quality?

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Re: [Arm-netbook] About, the rk processor.

2017-04-16 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:56 PM, zap  wrote:
> something interesting I saw is that in the update picking a processor,
> it shows rk3188 as the rockchip processor you were going to reverse
> engineer. on the other hand, your rhombus-tech link shows that your
> looking at rk3288?
>
>
> Not to be annoying constantly, but I am curious are you looking at one
> or both?

 just the 3288.  the 3188 i considered but it's older, cortex a9 based
so is *really* power-hungry. i got a dev board (ok an IPTV box),
opened it up, immediately noted the heat-sink on the 3188 and went
"absolutely not".

 the 3288 on the other hand was the first commercial A17 (i believe)
which is a sort-of uprated version of the Cortex A7 - something like
that, anyway.

 also it can do HDMI 2.0, 4k video playback (if you push the
dual-channel memory up to a stonking 1600mhz that is...) and it kicks
the stuffing out of the high-end variants of the intel atom.

 more than that, its popularity in chromebooks has meant that the 3288
has a *lot* of modding and OS messing-about behind it.  that's a good
thing in that it's well-understood, but it does make it a f*g
nuisance to try and find decent instructions.  i've given up on using
google search and now go directly to #linux-rockchip on freenode.
people there know what they're doing.

l.

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[Arm-netbook] About, the rk processor.

2017-04-16 Thread zap 
something interesting I saw is that in the update picking a processor,
it shows rk3188 as the rockchip processor you were going to reverse
engineer. on the other hand, your rhombus-tech link shows that your
looking at rk3288?


Not to be annoying constantly, but I am curious are you looking at one
or both?

I appolgize if there is something I may have missed.


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Re: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke

2017-04-16 Thread zap 


On 04/16/2017 12:58 PM, zap wrote:
>
> On 04/16/2017 06:35 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:08 AM, zap  wrote:
>>> Just one question,
>>  sure.
>>
>>> I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards
>>  yes.
>>
>>> that your replacing
>>> one or both of the internal usbs?
>>  no.
>>
>>> or am I wrong?
>>  removing the TSSOP-48 *NAND* IC, which leaves tracks free on layer 3
>> to route the (preferred) SDC2 interface through to the *internal*
>> MicroSD card slot, which was *previously* wired to SDC3.
>>
>> according to this: http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM
>>
>>  the boot order in the A20 eGON boot ROM is as follows:
>>
>> * SDC0
>> * NAND
>> * SDC2
>> * SPI
>> * FEL (USB-boot)
>>
>> note that MMC3 is *NOT* on that list.  so, where previously the boot order 
>> was:
>>
>> * SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
>> * NAND
>>
>> it's now:
>>
>> * SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
>> * SDC2 (internal on EOMA68-A20 Card)
>>
>> both of which are removable, so i feel it's a hell of a lot better.
>>
>>> By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it,
>>>
>>> Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and
>>> anyone wants it, install it for them.
>>  it's already been explained in a previous update... wherre is it...
>> ah ha! here you go:
>>
>>   
>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/assembling-pcbs-at-home
>>
>>  so, first things, it wouldn't work (because it is necessary to ship
>> with the sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel as it is the *only* linux kernel that
>> supports the *FULL* set of hardware, and systemd is *NOT COMPATIBLE*
>> with the 3.4 kernel) but secondly, i've done a heck of a lot of
>> comprehensive testing of what i'll be providing... which includes some
>> custom software compiles for things like the sunxi-vdpau drivers...
>> and i'm not about to spend the time redoing all that.  i simply don't
>> have time... and people are entirely free to do it themselves anyway.
>> just grab another MicroSD Card and prepare it.
> Actually I forgot debian 9 used a kernel that a20 eoma68 doesn't support.
>
> But I am guessing this could be an option for the rk3188 right?
yeah... sorry for even mentioning that, It does work disregard this
change...

>>> Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want.
>>  there will be a lot of people who will want the same thing.  they
>> will be either here on this list, or on debian-arm, or on the
>> (planned) eoma68.com forums... etc. etc.
>>
>>  it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS:
>>  https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
>>
>>  err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's
>> it.  done.
>>
>>  this version looks a little more complicated:
>>  
>> https://wiki.debian.org/EmDebian/CrossDebootstrap#QEMU.2Fdebootstrap_approach
>>
>>  but is essentially the same thing.
>>
>>  oh look: there's the same instructions in here:
>>  http://linux-sunxi.org/Bootable_SD_card
>>
>>  section 8, "rootfs" - or section 8.2 use debootstrap.
>>
>>  the earlier sections describe setting up u-boot and linux kernel, but
>> you should by now have the general impression that this is *extremely*
>> well-documented.  google "sunxi a20 microsd boot" and you'll find
>> absolutely everything you need.
>>
>>
>>> I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :)
>>  thanks.
>>
>>> Hoping you don't get sick again also,
>>  i consulted an expert that i trust and they pointed out that the
>> symptoms are consistent with the presence of parasites.  i looked that
>> up, and found that some of the foods i've been craving... kill
>> parasites! yay!  so i was subconsciously on the right track, but it's
>> good to have positive confirmation as well as a TODO list - a list of
>> foods to avoid as much as ones that will help.
>>
>>> I am glad you will be sticking the
>>> libre guidelines.  Even if it is a pain
>>> in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure.
>>  *sigh* yeah it is... but there are plenty of people who don't... and
>> make a ton of money (because of the compromises)... and cause exactly
>> the kinds of problems we see that people complain about on a regular
>> and constant basis.
>>
>>  only a new seed will yield a new crop.
>>
>> l.
>>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread Wolfram Kahl 
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 11:42:01AM +0100, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> > Something like this?: 
> > http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf
> 
>  ... exactly like that :)  except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
> panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.

That's just a bit less than 3.5in diagonal --- I at least do not enjoy
operating such tiny touchscreens with >0.5in fingers...

Wikipedia confirms my experience:

 | A resistive touchscreen operated with a stylus will generally offer
 | greater pointing precision than a capacitive touchscreen operated with
 | a finger.

A small (up to at least 5in) capacitive touchscreen is therefore
outright unattractive for me --- perhaps somebody puts together
a portable EOMA housing with a resistive touchscreen and a stylus?  ;-)


Wolfram

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Re: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke

2017-04-16 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Pablo  wrote:
>>  it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS:
>>  https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
>>
>>  err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's
>> it.  done.
>
> It is true that there has been (heated) discussions about what kind of
> image should be shipped with the Eoma68-A20 cards and a lot has been
> explained here at this list and with the updates at crowdsupply.
> Still it seems kind of unfair to point Zap in the direction of how to
> set up a root filesystem as it is obviously not the hard part.

 that's a misunderstanding and is out-of-context, so allow me to
clarify: note the first part of what i said: I EXPECT THERE TO BE
SEVERAL PEOPLE INTERESTED IN CREATING THEIR OWN CARDS.

 that means that there will be a ton of people to ask "how do i create
my own Card image".

 there is even such documentation on the rhombus-tech wiki.  kernel
configs and links to kernel configs are included, as well as
instructions on how to compile them.

 it really isn't that hard.

> The hard parts are the mentioned mainline kernel bug somewhere after
> 4.7-rc1 and to get all or most of the hardware working with a mainline
> kernel or at least a custom kernel based on mainline and to make
> everything work smooth with vanilla Debian.

 true.  and is why i'm not going to get directly involved.


> Some minor issues can be the correct setup of U-boot, sd-card
> filesystems, kernel config, ... although we can probably copy from the
> Eoma68-A20-Sd-Card provided by Luke.

 exactly.  copy the first 128mb of any microsd card verbatim with dd
then sort out the rootfs partition after that.  i've done that at
least 10 times when creating the various different images.

 it's all been done, many many times.

 l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke

2017-04-16 Thread Pablo 
>  it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS:
>  https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot
> 
>  err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's
> it.  done.

It is true that there has been (heated) discussions about what kind of
image should be shipped with the Eoma68-A20 cards and a lot has been
explained here at this list and with the updates at crowdsupply.
Still it seems kind of unfair to point Zap in the direction of how to
set up a root filesystem as it is obviously not the hard part.
The hard parts are the mentioned mainline kernel bug somewhere after
4.7-rc1 and to get all or most of the hardware working with a mainline
kernel or at least a custom kernel based on mainline and to make
everything work smooth with vanilla Debian. 
Some minor issues can be the correct setup of U-boot, sd-card
filesystems, kernel config, ... although we can probably copy from the
Eoma68-A20-Sd-Card provided by Luke.

kind regards
Pablo

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop case, laptop pcb1 and pcb2, etc.

2017-04-16 Thread Allan Mwenda 
God damn NDAs. And it really is a common design too, chinese companies are 
basically slapping logos on the same chassis. That is unfortunate, the 
situation you describe. 

On 16 April 2017 16:01:43 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
 wrote:
>On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Allan Mwenda
> wrote:
>> Just gonna ask here coz I'm too lazy.
>
> :)
>
>> How hard would it be to repurpose one of these cheap $200 macbook
>clone
>> things with intel atoms to take an eoma68 card instead? I can already
>> imagine the rockchip one in it :)
>
> yeah me too.  ok, repurposing of existing casework comes up as a
>recurring theme, quite a lot: i was one of the people who believed,
>back when this project started, that it would be practical and
>perfectly reasonable.  so i wrote it up as one of the updates, "laptop
>comparison".  ha, cool, i just encountered this:
>
>https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/the-opposite-of-the-eoma-68-modular-laptop
>
> i'm redoing that PCB you can see at the end of that one, except it'll
>be coloured green.. :)
>
> this was the one:
>https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/laptop-comparisons
>
> and... ah.  that's strange... i didn't add the bits about the
>impracticalities of sourcing the components.(which are flat-out
>impossible in the anticipated quantities).  that _was_ the whole
>purpose of mentioning the update.  duuUuh :)
>
> ok so _somewhere_ i have a critique of the strategy which utilises
>pre-existing casework: it's a comprehensive fail, pure and simple.
>
> why?
>
> well, if you get some existing casework, it's likely to be at least 1
>to 10 years old.  the company that made the connectors - SPECIFICALLY
>for that SPECIFIC laptop case as SPECIAL ORDER ITEMS will have a
>unique relationship with the designer of the laptop.
>
>conversations between you and that supplier would go something like
>this:
>
> you: "hello!  we want to make a PCB based around a proprietary laptop
>case!  please give us 100 of your connectors!"
>
> supplier (very puzzled supplier): "hello!  glad to hear from you.
>are you a representative of the company whom we signed an NDA with
>whom we have multi-million-dollar supply contracts?"
>
> you: "errr no?  i just want 100 of your $0.10 connectors that you
>made 10 years ago"
>
> supplier (who is probably trying to be veery diplomatic by now): "10
>years ago?  you want to give us $10 for some parts where the tooling's
>been destroyed over 9 years ago and it would cost us $100k to remake
>it, and it's a proprietary (copyrighted) design as part of one of our
>unique client contracts??"
>
>... you get the general idea, allan?  :)
>
>even if it's a common design, as i've found out already, you need a
>*personal* connection - someone who *actually* has worked with that
>casework and knows *all* of the components *and* suppliers, has a good
>relationship with them, and is prepared to risk that because you're
>*guaranteed* to order at least 1k and preferably 10k units...
>
>.all of this should give you the general impression that it is a f***
>of a lot of work and risk for almost zero return.  it's similar to the
>hilarious "how i made a $3 toaster for $1800" ted talk, which is well
>worth watching.
>
>https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch/transcript?language=en
>
>l.
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop case, laptop pcb1 and pcb2, etc.

2017-04-16 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Allan Mwenda  wrote:
> Just gonna ask here coz I'm too lazy.

 :)

> How hard would it be to repurpose one of these cheap $200 macbook clone
> things with intel atoms to take an eoma68 card instead? I can already
> imagine the rockchip one in it :)

 yeah me too.  ok, repurposing of existing casework comes up as a
recurring theme, quite a lot: i was one of the people who believed,
back when this project started, that it would be practical and
perfectly reasonable.  so i wrote it up as one of the updates, "laptop
comparison".  ha, cool, i just encountered this:

 
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/the-opposite-of-the-eoma-68-modular-laptop

 i'm redoing that PCB you can see at the end of that one, except it'll
be coloured green.. :)

 this was the one:
 https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/laptop-comparisons

 and... ah.  that's strange... i didn't add the bits about the
impracticalities of sourcing the components.(which are flat-out
impossible in the anticipated quantities).  that _was_ the whole
purpose of mentioning the update.  duuUuh :)

 ok so _somewhere_ i have a critique of the strategy which utilises
pre-existing casework: it's a comprehensive fail, pure and simple.

 why?

 well, if you get some existing casework, it's likely to be at least 1
to 10 years old.  the company that made the connectors - SPECIFICALLY
for that SPECIFIC laptop case as SPECIAL ORDER ITEMS will have a
unique relationship with the designer of the laptop.

 conversations between you and that supplier would go something like this:

 you: "hello!  we want to make a PCB based around a proprietary laptop
case!  please give us 100 of your connectors!"

 supplier (very puzzled supplier): "hello!  glad to hear from you.
are you a representative of the company whom we signed an NDA with
whom we have multi-million-dollar supply contracts?"

 you: "errr no?  i just want 100 of your $0.10 connectors that you
made 10 years ago"

 supplier (who is probably trying to be veery diplomatic by now): "10
years ago?  you want to give us $10 for some parts where the tooling's
been destroyed over 9 years ago and it would cost us $100k to remake
it, and it's a proprietary (copyrighted) design as part of one of our
unique client contracts??"

... you get the general idea, allan?  :)

even if it's a common design, as i've found out already, you need a
*personal* connection - someone who *actually* has worked with that
casework and knows *all* of the components *and* suppliers, has a good
relationship with them, and is prepared to risk that because you're
*guaranteed* to order at least 1k and preferably 10k units...

.all of this should give you the general impression that it is a f***
of a lot of work and risk for almost zero return.  it's similar to the
hilarious "how i made a $3 toaster for $1800" ted talk, which is well
worth watching.

   
https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch/transcript?language=en

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] microdesktop case, laptop pcb1 and pcb2, etc.

2017-04-16 Thread Allan Mwenda 
Just gonna ask here coz I'm too lazy.
How hard would it be to repurpose one of these cheap $200 macbook clone things 
with intel atoms to take an eoma68 card instead? I can already imagine the 
rockchip one in it :)

On 16 April 2017 10:14:42 GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
 wrote:
>https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/taiwan-micro-desktop-casework-laptop-pcb1-and-a20
>
>ok so i'm almost ready to send the laptop pcb1 and pcb4 off for
>prototyping, this gets about 20% the way towards getting the laptop
>done, but also is planned to be the basis of a new housing (an
>all-in-one PC) where sharing the exact same main PCB as in the laptop
>will cut costs of production of both.
>
>mark (van de borre): about the casework i've sent the DXF files off to
>a china prototyping company just so i can get something quickly.  i
>don't expect them to be perfect first time, and to have do do another
>iteration.  i'll want to do one last full systems test then the
>microdsktop v1.7 including casework can go into production.  i haven't
>worked out if i have to do 2,000 of the corner pieces as 3D-printed or
>to get them injection-molded, at 2,000 pieces it *might* be worth
>doing as injection-molding.
>
>btw if anyone would like to see the gerber files for the three latest
>pcbs, they're here:
>
>http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/laptop_15in/pcb1/laptop_15in_pcb1_cam/
>http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/laptop_15in/pcb4/laptop_15in_powerboard/
>http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/microdesktop/eoma68_microdesktop_cam/
>
>l.
>
>---
>crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread Allan Mwenda 
The fact that its a Pi already nukes freedom, otherwise nice idea

On 14 April 2017 08:00:52 GMT+03:00, Louis Pearson  
wrote:
>https://hackaday.io/project/19035-zerophone-a-raspberry-pi-smartphone
>
>Not exactly a netbook, but this looks like an interesting project. How
>much
>work would
>it take to create something like this using EOMA68? I know I would be
>interested in a
>device like that.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread Allan Mwenda 
The fact that its a Pi already nukes freedom, otherwise nice idea

On 14 April 2017 08:00:52 GMT+03:00, Louis Pearson  
wrote:
>https://hackaday.io/project/19035-zerophone-a-raspberry-pi-smartphone
>
>Not exactly a netbook, but this looks like an interesting project. How
>much
>work would
>it take to create something like this using EOMA68? I know I would be
>interested in a
>device like that.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] ZeroPhone

2017-04-16 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:05 AM, GaCuest  wrote:
> El 14 de abril de 2017 a las 7:37:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
> (l...@lkcl.net) escribió:
>> the idea there is to use an LCD that has *dual* control interfaces:
>> SPI *AND* RGB/TTL.
>
> Something like this?: http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/shenzen/frida/FRD3504503.pdf

 ... exactly like that :)  except i'm not a huge fan of resistive
panels... they are quite a lot cheaper though.

i've got a list of their LCDs, here:
http://rhombus-tech.net/suppliers/shenzen/frida_lcd/

they do a very nice 3.9in 800x480 IPS LCD, the only thing those
dual-row 0.3mm pitch connectors are a bitch.  FRD350H45142-CT has a
45Pin FPC, with a Capacitive Panel.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] I saw your recent update, Luke

2017-04-16 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:08 AM, zap  wrote:
> Just one question,

 sure.

> I am assuming since there will be internal sd cards

 yes.

> that your replacing
> one or both of the internal usbs?

 no.

> or am I wrong?

 removing the TSSOP-48 *NAND* IC, which leaves tracks free on layer 3
to route the (preferred) SDC2 interface through to the *internal*
MicroSD card slot, which was *previously* wired to SDC3.

according to this: http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM

 the boot order in the A20 eGON boot ROM is as follows:

* SDC0
* NAND
* SDC2
* SPI
* FEL (USB-boot)

note that MMC3 is *NOT* on that list.  so, where previously the boot order was:

* SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
* NAND

it's now:

* SDC0 (external on EOMA68 connector)
* SDC2 (internal on EOMA68-A20 Card)

both of which are removable, so i feel it's a hell of a lot better.

> By the way, I have a suggestion if you feel up to it,
>
> Debian 9 seems to be very close to stable, if you feel like it, and
> anyone wants it, install it for them.

 it's already been explained in a previous update... wherre is it...
ah ha! here you go:

  
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/assembling-pcbs-at-home

 so, first things, it wouldn't work (because it is necessary to ship
with the sunxi 3.4.104+ kernel as it is the *only* linux kernel that
supports the *FULL* set of hardware, and systemd is *NOT COMPATIBLE*
with the 3.4 kernel) but secondly, i've done a heck of a lot of
comprehensive testing of what i'll be providing... which includes some
custom software compiles for things like the sunxi-vdpau drivers...
and i'm not about to spend the time redoing all that.  i simply don't
have time... and people are entirely free to do it themselves anyway.
just grab another MicroSD Card and prepare it.

> Whenever I order it, probably that will be what I will want.

 there will be a lot of people who will want the same thing.  they
will be either here on this list, or on debian-arm, or on the
(planned) eoma68.com forums... etc. etc.

 it's actually incredibly straightforward to get a Card set up with a new OS:
 https://wiki.debian.org/ArmHardFloatChroot

 err... then... err... copy that to a MicroSD card and... err.. that's
it.  done.

 this version looks a little more complicated:
 https://wiki.debian.org/EmDebian/CrossDebootstrap#QEMU.2Fdebootstrap_approach

 but is essentially the same thing.

 oh look: there's the same instructions in here:
 http://linux-sunxi.org/Bootable_SD_card

 section 8, "rootfs" - or section 8.2 use debootstrap.

 the earlier sections describe setting up u-boot and linux kernel, but
you should by now have the general impression that this is *extremely*
well-documented.  google "sunxi a20 microsd boot" and you'll find
absolutely everything you need.


> I wish you the best of luck, not that you will need it. :)

 thanks.

> Hoping you don't get sick again also,

 i consulted an expert that i trust and they pointed out that the
symptoms are consistent with the presence of parasites.  i looked that
up, and found that some of the foods i've been craving... kill
parasites! yay!  so i was subconsciously on the right track, but it's
good to have positive confirmation as well as a TODO list - a list of
foods to avoid as much as ones that will help.

> I am glad you will be sticking the
> libre guidelines.  Even if it is a pain
> in the butt to be putting it lightly I am sure.

 *sigh* yeah it is... but there are plenty of people who don't... and
make a ton of money (because of the compromises)... and cause exactly
the kinds of problems we see that people complain about on a regular
and constant basis.

 only a new seed will yield a new crop.

l.

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[Arm-netbook] microdesktop case, laptop pcb1 and pcb2, etc.

2017-04-16 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/taiwan-micro-desktop-casework-laptop-pcb1-and-a20

ok so i'm almost ready to send the laptop pcb1 and pcb4 off for
prototyping, this gets about 20% the way towards getting the laptop
done, but also is planned to be the basis of a new housing (an
all-in-one PC) where sharing the exact same main PCB as in the laptop
will cut costs of production of both.

mark (van de borre): about the casework i've sent the DXF files off to
a china prototyping company just so i can get something quickly.  i
don't expect them to be perfect first time, and to have do do another
iteration.  i'll want to do one last full systems test then the
microdsktop v1.7 including casework can go into production.  i haven't
worked out if i have to do 2,000 of the corner pieces as 3D-printed or
to get them injection-molded, at 2,000 pieces it *might* be worth
doing as injection-molding.

btw if anyone would like to see the gerber files for the three latest
pcbs, they're here:

http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/laptop_15in/pcb1/laptop_15in_pcb1_cam/
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/laptop_15in/pcb4/laptop_15in_powerboard/
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/microdesktop/eoma68_microdesktop_cam/

l.

---
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