[Bf-committers] new UV test grid
hi some time ago I get idea to make new UV test grid http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=167872 but i make only graphic. now I thought to ask developers what they think about this idea, so I go to #blendercoders, I talked with ideasman, He told me that there "houndrets of idea but only few devs" and ask me can I write this in python, so i try wrote it http://www.pastebin.org/113269 by default it renders on image in UV editor (read lines 60-61) its little slow in big resolutions :( and don't have letters and numbers cheers hubert (szczuro) niecko ps. sorry for my English ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
dziekuję! --Roger Check out my website at www.rogerwickes.com for a good deal on my book and training course, as well as information about my latest activities. Use coupon Papasmurf for $15 off! From: Hubert Niećko To: bf-committers@blender.org Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 11:27:27 AM Subject: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid hi some time ago I get idea to make new UV test grid http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=167872 but i make only graphic. now I thought to ask developers what they think about this idea, so I go to #blendercoders, I talked with ideasman, He told me that there "houndrets of idea but only few devs" and ask me can I write this in python, so i try wrote it http://www.pastebin.org/113269 by default it renders on image in UV editor (read lines 60-61) its little slow in big resolutions :( and don't have letters and numbers cheers hubert (szczuro) niecko ps. sorry for my English ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
if this was converted to C it could be added into 2.5x as an option with the current grid. This is worth adding IMHO since you can quickly know what part of the image the face is mapped to. But I don't have time for this, a good one for a new developer to look into :) On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Roger Wickes wrote: > dziekuję! > --Roger > > > Check out my website at www.rogerwickes.com for a good deal on my book and > training course, as well as information about my latest activities. Use coupon > Papasmurf for $15 off! > > > > > > From: Hubert Niećko > To: bf-committers@blender.org > Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 11:27:27 AM > Subject: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid > > hi > some time ago I get idea to make new UV test grid > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=167872 but i make > only graphic. > now I thought to ask developers what they think about this idea, so I > go to #blendercoders, I talked with ideasman, He told me that there > "houndrets of idea but only few devs" and ask me can I write this in > python, so i try wrote it http://www.pastebin.org/113269 > by default it renders on image in UV editor (read lines 60-61) > its little slow in big resolutions :( and don't have letters and numbers > > cheers hubert (szczuro) niecko > ps. sorry for my English > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > > > > > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Hi, The previous grid [1] was also quite colourful and it got very tiring and difficult to work with for longer periods of time - that's why the current grey one was implemented :) Would be interesting to have some testing with this new one to see how it goes in practice. I do think that keeping a neutral grey would be a good thing, if some of the other issues can be solved too. BTW if done in C, it's probably also possible to use the blender font library to draw/composite text as well. cheers, Matt [1] http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Template:Release_Notes/2.40/Image On 16/03/2010, at 02:27 , Hubert Niećko wrote: > hi > some time ago I get idea to make new UV test grid > http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=167872 but i make > only graphic. > now I thought to ask developers what they think about this idea, so I > go to #blendercoders, I talked with ideasman, He told me that there > "houndrets of idea but only few devs" and ask me can I write this in > python, so i try wrote it http://www.pastebin.org/113269 > by default it renders on image in UV editor (read lines 60-61) > its little slow in big resolutions :( and don't have letters and > numbers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Roger: did you speak polish ? or use translator? ;) Campbell: Is there many newDev or I must become one to convert it ? Matt: Me and several of my co-workers use version that I posted on BlenderArtist, and we like it. In default blender 2.4x colors could be tiring, but I think that under 2.5 default colorsheme it looks better, at last saturation level could be given to user I made little tweaks for better color blending and easy adjust saturation (line44) http://www.pastebin.org/113570 hubert ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Actually I have to agree that color checkers can be tiring or simply not the right answer for a given job. I do think that the patter proposed should be included in Blender but not as a replacement, as an additional option. So far the best, most useful pattern that I found for general texture work is the one included in ZBrush's Texture Master: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=1951 If we could have an option to select grayscale and color that would be great. -- Paolo Ciccone www.preta3d.com www.paolociccone.com On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Hubert Niećko wrote: > Roger: did you speak polish ? or use translator? ;) > > Campbell: Is there many newDev or I must become one to convert it ? > > Matt: Me and several of my co-workers use version that I posted on > BlenderArtist, and we like it. In default blender 2.4x colors could be > tiring, but I think that under 2.5 default colorsheme it looks better, > at last saturation level could be given to user > > I made little tweaks for better color blending and easy adjust > saturation (line44) http://www.pastebin.org/113570 > > hubert > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Roger: pozdrowienia dla żony :) to tell which way UV tex is oriented I prefer letters and numbers, as I did in pic in BlenderArtist thread. If use arrows flipped UV faces will not be so obvious. I didn't implemented it in python because doing it per pixel is huge amount of work, and I think there are easiest way to do text in C or even there is way to do this in python but i don't know it. If there is I could try add this in python :) Paolo: saturation slider should do exacly what you propose: 0=grayscale -> 0.5=color -> 1=more color :) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
agreed. the old grid, with the +, you could not tell. Your "chess" style grid is perfect. --Roger Check out my website at www.rogerwickes.com for a good deal on my book and training course, as well as information about my latest activities. Use coupon Papasmurf for $15 off! From: Hubert Niećko To: bf-blender developers Sent: Tue, March 16, 2010 2:48:38 AM Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid Roger: pozdrowienia dla żony :) to tell which way UV tex is oriented I prefer letters and numbers, as I did in pic in BlenderArtist thread. If use arrows flipped UV faces will not be so obvious. I didn't implemented it in python because doing it per pixel is huge amount of work, and I think there are easiest way to do text in C or even there is way to do this in python but i don't know it. If there is I could try add this in python :) Paolo: saturation slider should do exacly what you propose: 0=grayscale -> 0.5=color -> 1=more color :) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
hi I wrote draw char array function but it rather rough because chars are written pixel by pixel http://www.pastebin.org/123654 new function are highlighted in yellow what do you think about it ? I think I can try implement it better in C with bigger fonts etc, but my C knowlege is rather poor (I have learned C 2-3 years ago in college, but I didn't code much after ) what could I do to became a blender dev? - hubert (szczuro) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Forgive me if this is a FAQ but what is preventing Blender from loading a test grid as a PNG or JPEG? In that way we don't need to convert it a C function, we get more flexibility and the grid system can be expanded easily. --- Paolo Ciccone www.preta3d.com www.paolociccone.com On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Hubert Niećko wrote: > hi > I wrote draw char array function but it rather rough because chars are > written pixel by pixel > http://www.pastebin.org/123654 > new function are highlighted in yellow > what do you think about it ? > I think I can try implement it better in C with bigger fonts etc, but > my C knowlege is rather poor (I have learned C 2-3 years ago in > college, but I didn't code much after ) > what could I do to became a blender dev? > > - hubert (szczuro) > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Hubert Niećko wrote: > hi > I wrote draw char array function but it rather rough because chars are > written pixel by pixel > http://www.pastebin.org/123654 > new function are highlighted in yellow > what do you think about it ? > I think I can try implement it better in C with bigger fonts etc, but > my C knowlege is rather poor (I have learned C 2-3 years ago in > college, but I didn't code much after ) > what could I do to became a blender dev? > > - hubert (szczuro) did you see in blender 2.5 the new grid has been committed with text drawing? -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Paolo Ciccone wrote: > Forgive me if this is a FAQ but what is preventing Blender from loading a > test grid as a PNG or JPEG? In that way we don't need to convert it a C > function, we get more flexibility and the grid system can be expanded > easily. This would be trivial to add, the screenshot uses an internally stored image, but it also means you cant set the resolution which is nice to be able to do when baking. Procedurally generating an image isnt all that hard, so I rather do this. ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
sorry, I haven't time to check latest version :) it looks great :) I would start counting from top left corner instead of bottom left i think it isn't tested well ;) in small height around 60-80 px blender crashes (rev27764 win);) it also gives interesting result on high resolutions when cyphers or letters ends :) I have several other ideas to implement, so my last question is still open: "what could I do to became a blender dev?" ;) -- hubert (szczuro) ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Though I didn't get a crash, text drawing into a buffer currently doesnt check array bounds, so even though its bad that this crashes, its just exposing a bug which could happen in other cases too (when stamping for instance). text drawing into a buffer just needs fixing. On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Hubert Niećko wrote: > sorry, I haven't time to check latest version :) > it looks great :) I would start counting from top left corner instead > of bottom left > i think it isn't tested well ;) in small height around 60-80 px > blender crashes (rev27764 win);) > it also gives interesting result on high resolutions when cyphers or > letters ends :) > > I have several other ideas to implement, so my last question is still > open: "what could I do to became a blender dev?" ;) > -- hubert (szczuro) > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Campbell, I understand that but realistically there are no many resolution that people need/use. Once you provide a 1024,2048, 4096 version you cover the basis. But having a general system for loading the UV texture grip means that the user will be able to add a texture of choice by simply dropping a bitmap in a given location. That is a big plus. I know that we can load the bitmap at any time but having a set of pre-made textures available form a menu is a nice user-friendly feature. Usability is all about the small, subtle things. -- Paolo Ciccone www.preta3d.com www.paolociccone.com On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:08 AM, Campbell Barton wrote: > On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Paolo Ciccone > wrote: > > Forgive me if this is a FAQ but what is preventing Blender from loading a > > test grid as a PNG or JPEG? In that way we don't need to convert it a C > > function, we get more flexibility and the grid system can be expanded > > easily. > > This would be trivial to add, the screenshot uses an internally stored > image, but it also means you cant set the resolution which is nice to > be able to do when baking. > > Procedurally generating an image isnt all that hard, so I rather do this. > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Anyone can add a python extension which has a set of useful, premade UV grid images, these can be added to the image menu but have the disadvantage that they need to be distributed with the blend file, though if they are only grids, its not so important. But Id not make these default, images could take up quite a bit of space - one image could easily be bigger then python library :), rather stick with procedural for now. On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Paolo Ciccone wrote: > Campbell, I understand that but realistically there are no many resolution > that people need/use. Once you provide a 1024,2048, 4096 version you cover > the basis. But having a general system for loading the UV texture grip means > that the user will be able to add a texture of choice by simply dropping a > bitmap in a given location. That is a big plus. I know that we can load the > bitmap at any time but having a set of pre-made textures available form a > menu is a nice user-friendly feature. > Usability is all about the small, subtle things. > > -- > Paolo Ciccone > www.preta3d.com > www.paolociccone.com > > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:08 AM, Campbell Barton wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Paolo Ciccone >> wrote: >> > Forgive me if this is a FAQ but what is preventing Blender from loading a >> > test grid as a PNG or JPEG? In that way we don't need to convert it a C >> > function, we get more flexibility and the grid system can be expanded >> > easily. >> >> This would be trivial to add, the screenshot uses an internally stored >> image, but it also means you cant set the resolution which is nice to >> be able to do when baking. >> >> Procedurally generating an image isnt all that hard, so I rather do this. >> ___ >> Bf-committers mailing list >> Bf-committers@blender.org >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >> > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Campbell, sorry for belaboring this point but this issue brings up a major point about Blender. There is a difference about what can be done: "Anyone can add a python extension", and what should be done to improve usability of Blender. We know that the level of user-friendliness of Blender is its major criticism. We all know how to use Blender, how to add textures, write Python scripts etc. This is not about how easy or hard is, for developers, to dosomething but how friendly Blender is "out of the box" for the average user. We all work to make the program usable to the public at large. There is a point when technical considerations become secondary to what is needed to make the program actually friendly. That is why I'm insisting on this. I truly believe that a slight change of perspective is necessary. The focus has to shift on the "user experience" primarily and on the technical aspect secondarily. I know, I'm proposing "heresy" in this mailing list but it's that kind of "heresy" that makes Apple's product such a success. It's not different than the idea beahind Gaudi's "Sagrada Familia", the engineering underneath is at the service of the artistic experience that the public enjoys. I don't care about the procedural textures. They are a minor point, although you just have to see what happened with ZBrush's UVMaster to get an appreciation of how people respond to that kind of user-friendliness. What is important is to make Blender an easily approachable tool that can be extended by the end user who doesn't know what Python or C++ is. It's important that we stop thinking about the Blender users as fellow coders. It takes a lot less to fire up Photoshop, or The Gimp, and make a new pattern and drop it in a directory than do the same and then convert it to C code and submit it as a patch. Including the fact that actually projecting the letters in the squares has been recognized as an obstacle. Why shouldn't we give that flexibility to the user? It's the same issue that makes installing python extensions, for 2.49, and incredibly nerdy experience while it should be as easily as dropping a file in a pre-determined directory. Again, this is not about what is possible, but about how approachable the task is. All this intended as a constructive criticism. I know that developers are donating their time for this project and we all appreciate the excellent work that you are doing with Blender. Best. -- Paolo On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Campbell Barton wrote: > Anyone can add a python extension which has a set of useful, premade > UV grid images, these can be added to the image menu but have the > disadvantage that they need to be distributed with the blend file, > though if they are only grids, its not so important. > > But Id not make these default, images could take up quite a bit of > space - one image could easily be bigger then python library :), > rather stick with procedural for now. > > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
I think there is a compromise here, where someone was working on a library for Blender, to be distributed with the install. The oldLibrary script was a BIG step in the right direction, and the effort to make a set of settings for procedural, I am sure, could be expanded to include a stock set of images in the various categories (UV Test grid falls into the Abstract category). At the least, we can fold them into the material lib distro that is already available thru Blender.org (that old one about 8 years old but is still just as useful). --Roger Check out my website at www.rogerwickes.com for a good deal on my book and training course, as well as information about my latest activities. Use coupon Papasmurf for $15 off! From: Paolo Ciccone To: bf-blender developers Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 11:57:58 AM Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid Campbell, sorry for belaboring this point but this issue brings up a major point about Blender. There is a difference about what can be done: "Anyone can add a python extension", and what should be done to improve usability of Blender. We know that the level of user-friendliness of Blender is its major criticism. We all know how to use Blender, how to add textures, write Python scripts etc. This is not about how easy or hard is, for developers, to dosomething but how friendly Blender is "out of the box" for the average user. http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Blender is made for the professional, not for the average computer user. It reminds me nothing of an Apple application and that makes me happy. On 3/26/2010 8:57 AM, Paolo Ciccone wrote: > This is (about) how friendly Blender is "out of the box" for the average > user. > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Paolo, You might be assuming that you are arguing for something that Campbell is against. That might not be the case. The new UV test grid (and the old one) can be created procedurally very easily. Therefore Blender can be shipped with these two grids without unnecessarily bloating the install. It shouldn’t be a problem to also add the ability for the user to load their own custom graphic. Campbell just doesn’t want to include any such images with the installation. Regards, Harley Acheson Virtual Dogsbody Info Tech Department Shawnigan Lake School ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
And as always, why would "made for the professional" mean that it needs to be userUNfriendly? The so called 'pros' who want to do things the hard way, are in fact no pros at all. If one does real work, one has to deal with real deadlines, and will appreciate everything that makes life easier. And Apple is not synonymous to user friendly. -mats On 26.3.2010, at 18.38, loopduplic...@burningtoken.com wrote: > Blender is made for the professional, not for the average computer > user. It reminds me nothing of an Apple application and that makes me > happy. > > On 3/26/2010 8:57 AM, Paolo Ciccone wrote: >> This is (about) how friendly Blender is "out of the box" for the average >> user. >> > > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Harley Acheson wrote: > Paolo, > > You might be assuming that you are arguing for something that Campbell > is against. That might not be the case. > I really didn't assume anything. I only assume that Campbell is extra busy, we know by all the records about Blender, Durian etc. :) And I wasn't talking about Campbell in particular but about the development of Blender in general. Brilliant coders, such as Ton and Campbell and everyone improving Blender, are light-years ahead of the user of Blender. My post was not meant to stir up troubles and I hope we can keep a "level head" about this. Blender is used by end users. It's a free tool. Anybody can download it. That doesn't mean that we have to dumb it down but we know that there are many people who used other 3D packages professionally and they can be stumped by Blender. BTW, professional is a term that I see abused and misintepreted a lot. It doesn't refer to a developer. It doesn't refer to somebody with an incredible deep technical knowledge. Professional means that you get paid for what you do. You program for a living? You are a professional programmer. You get paid to flip burgers? You are a professional burger flipper. The feedback to my popular "Blender Survival Guide" on Creative COW highlighted the needs of the Motion Graphic artists. Those are professionals in the motion pictures industry who know programs like After Effects and FCP, they are very well respected in their field, but didn't know how to tackle Blender. Now, because of the "BSG" a few more of them do know it and they like it. I don't think that there is anything wrong in making Blender more approachable for that kind of professional. Some of them are not professional modelers, yet, but then again Blender is a very feature-rich program that can be used for many reasons. I'm sorry if my reference to Apple has upset people but objectively, yes, they are the benchmark of user friendliness in computing. From the moment you open the box of one of their products you can see the care, the maniacal attention to details that goes into providing the best "first impression" possible. I don't think that there is enough appreciation for how important that is. The first impression, how easily you can approach a product, is often what will capture a user/customer for life. You might not like Apple but their product design is second to none and there is a lot to be learned from the way they take care of the user experience. Please, let's not turn this into a flame war, let's keep it "business". I myself cannot stand several companies on the ground of moral issues but I don't avoid learning from what they are doing right. Making Blender easy to install, easy to be expanded and easy to be used is one thing that, IMHO, should be of the highest priority for 2.5. A lot of people are looking at this release as "rebooting" Blender. If we don't take advantage of this possibility to capture the attention of potentially thousands of new users, we waste a precious opportunity. Remember, more users mean more people buying books and DVSs and that turns directly into funding for the Blender Foundation. Not a bad things to work for. > The new UV test grid (and the old one) can be created procedurally very > easily. Therefore Blender can be shipped with these two grids without > unnecessarily bloating the install. I think that we are getting too worried for just a few added kilobytes. That's hardly "bloating" the install. A few of grids in JPEG. In this day an age we should not worry so much for such size. Cheers. -- Paolo ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Paolo Ciccone wrote: > I think that we are getting too worried for just a few added kilobytes. > That's hardly "bloating" the install. A few of grids in JPEG. In this day an > age we should not worry so much for such size. I've been following this thread and it occurs to me that you're choosing the wrong topic to bring up an issue of user friendliness. Perhaps I'm missing something, but this seems like a gigantic non-issue. There's nothing stopping you from using any image you'd like as your custom UV test grid. Procedurally generated grids save space and provide greater flexibility to users (like you and me) to arbitrarily set the grid size to anything we want. Now, there may be an argument for providing preset size values for common UV map sizes that can be generated, but I fail to see how reducing the flexibility (that users want) of UV grid creation while simultaneously increasing the download size (however marginally) of Blender is step toward user friendliness. You raise some interesting and valid points about usability, but I'm really struggling to see how your original suggestion is supporting those points. If I'm missing something, please clarify it for me. -Fweeb ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Jason, I just sent you a PM, I'm taking already too much space here. BTW, just wanted to add that what I'm advocating for is not a replacement solution but an additional option integrated in Blender's menu system. Static and procedural checkers can coexist. -- Paolo Ciccone www.preta3d.com www.paolociccone.com On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Jason van Gumster < ja...@handturkeystudios.com> wrote: > > Paolo Ciccone wrote: > > > I think that we are getting too worried for just a few added kilobytes. > > That's hardly "bloating" the install. A few of grids in JPEG. In this day > an > > age we should not worry so much for such size. > > I've been following this thread and it occurs to me that you're choosing > the > wrong topic to bring up an issue of user friendliness. Perhaps I'm missing > something, but this seems like a gigantic non-issue. There's nothing > stopping > you from using any image you'd like as your custom UV test grid. > Procedurally > generated grids save space and provide greater flexibility to users (like > you > and me) to arbitrarily set the grid size to anything we want. Now, there > may be > an argument for providing preset size values for common UV map sizes that > can > be generated, but I fail to see how reducing the flexibility (that users > want) > of UV grid creation while simultaneously increasing the download size > (however > marginally) of Blender is step toward user friendliness. > > You raise some interesting and valid points about usability, but I'm really > struggling to see how your original suggestion is supporting those points. > > If I'm missing something, please clarify it for me. > > -Fweeb > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
On 26/03/2010 11:10 AM, Paolo Ciccone wrote: > I think that we are getting too worried for just a few added kilobytes. > That's hardly "bloating" the install. A few of grids in JPEG. In this day an > age we should not worry so much for such size. > > Cheers. > > -- > Paolo > Despite the fact that I am on dial-up I have to agree that a mb here or there doesn't matter that much; however I think it would make most sense to be an /optional/ but recommended extension on bf-extensions (and have a link from the blender download page to the recommended extensions page (which should be created if it doesn't exist - I haven't seen it if it does exist)). Pacific Morrowind ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Hi, some quick points to reply to some comments on this thread. At the moment its not my personal project to make blender user friendly for UV unwrapping. I just saw some fairly nice UV grid, asked a newer developer if he wanted to write, then reviewed the patch (and added text which exposes some bugs in blenders text rendering, eek, but good in the long term). I do however still believe keeping these textures procedural is an advantage and am not really interested in discussing at length. Nevertheless, Im not the owner of the image module, so Brecht, Matt, Ton, Kent could add if they think its worthwhile. Blender is becoming such a big application there are many areas where library/sample files could be useful but I think it could end up bloating the download too, and as I said before, optional extensions can be used and if someone really wants they can create a procedural grid as has just been done in the past weeks. On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 6:49 AM, Pacific Morrowind wrote: > On 26/03/2010 11:10 AM, Paolo Ciccone wrote: >> I think that we are getting too worried for just a few added kilobytes. >> That's hardly "bloating" the install. A few of grids in JPEG. In this day an >> age we should not worry so much for such size. >> >> Cheers. >> >> -- >> Paolo >> > Despite the fact that I am on dial-up I have to agree that a mb here or > there doesn't matter that much; however I think it would make most sense > to be an /optional/ but recommended extension on bf-extensions (and have > a link from the blender download page to the recommended extensions page > (which should be created if it doesn't exist - I haven't seen it if it > does exist)). > Pacific Morrowind > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Paolo: I learn something when I was trying add this grid, and there is proverb in my country that covers it well: If you want something to be done (properly), do it yourself -- hubert ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Hi hubert, hope you dont mean that you'll need to rewrite the implementation currently in blender? fixed the bug with crashing when making the grid because of out of bounds text, order of text could be top down (A starting at the top), but I'll leave that for someone else to patch if they really want. UV coords start at 0,0 so you could also argue that the current setup is more correct, though I don't mind much either way. On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Hubert Niećko wrote: > Paolo: I learn something when I was trying add this grid, and there is > proverb in my country that covers it well: > If you want something to be done (properly), do it yourself > -- hubert > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > -- - Campbell ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Hi Paolo, I don't think your requirements conflict with ours. The implications on what might be 'easy to use' can differ though, which is why we made a more flexible and configurable Blender 2.5 architecture. In some not-too-far future I'd welcome packagers creating special configured UIs with keymaps tweaked for people with a specific background, creative aims, or specific hardware. At this very stage that's too early though. I would prefer to narrow down our development targets to an absolute minimum, all focused on getting the 2.5 series out of beta in the shortest time. That will benefit everyone best, including you :) BTW: will you be available for Siggraph demos? Would rock! :) -Ton- Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 26 Mar, 2010, at 19:10, Paolo Ciccone wrote: > On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Harley Acheson >wrote: > >> Paolo, >> >> You might be assuming that you are arguing for something that >> Campbell >> is against. That might not be the case. >> > > I really didn't assume anything. I only assume that Campbell is > extra busy, > we know by all the records about Blender, Durian etc. :) > > And I wasn't talking about Campbell in particular but about the > development > of Blender in general. Brilliant coders, such as Ton and Campbell and > everyone improving Blender, are light-years > ahead of the user of Blender. > My post was not meant to stir up troubles and I hope we can keep a > "level > head" about this. Blender is used by end users. It's a free tool. > Anybody > can download it. > That doesn't mean that we have to dumb it down but we know that > there are > many people who used other 3D packages professionally and they can be > stumped by Blender. > BTW, professional is a term that I see abused and misintepreted a > lot. It > doesn't refer to a developer. It doesn't refer to somebody with an > incredible deep technical knowledge. > Professional means that you get paid for what you do. You program > for a > living? You are a professional programmer. You get paid to flip > burgers? You > are a professional burger > flipper. > The feedback to my popular "Blender Survival Guide" on Creative COW > highlighted the needs of the Motion Graphic artists. Those are > professionals > in the motion pictures industry who know programs like After Effects > and > FCP, they are very well respected in their field, but didn't know > how to > tackle Blender. > Now, because of the "BSG" a few more of them do know it and they > like it. I > don't think that there is anything wrong in making Blender more > approachable > for that kind of professional. > Some of them are not professional modelers, yet, but then again > Blender is a > very feature-rich program that can be used for many reasons. > > I'm sorry if my reference to Apple has upset people but objectively, > yes, > they are the benchmark of user friendliness in computing. From the > moment > you open the box of one of their products you can see the care, the > maniacal attention to details that goes into providing the best "first > impression" possible. I don't think that there is enough > appreciation for > how important that is. The first impression, how easily you can > approach > a product, is often what will capture a user/customer for life. You > might > not like Apple but their product design is second to none and there > is a lot > to be learned from the way they take care of the user experience. > Please, let's not turn this into a flame war, let's keep it > "business". I > myself cannot stand several companies on the ground of moral issues > but I > don't avoid learning from what they are doing right. > > Making Blender easy to install, easy to be expanded and easy to be > used is > one thing that, IMHO, should be of the highest priority for 2.5. A > lot of > people are looking at this release as "rebooting" Blender. > If we don't take advantage of this possibility to capture the > attention of > potentially thousands of new users, we waste a precious opportunity. > Remember, more users mean more people buying books and DVSs > and that turns directly into funding for the Blender Foundation. Not > a bad > things to work for. > > >> The new UV test grid (and the old one) can be created procedurally >> very >> easily. Therefore Blender can be shipped with these two grids without >> unnecessarily bloating the install. > > > I think that we are getting too worried for just a few added > kilobytes. > That's hardly "bloating" the install. A few of grids in JPEG. In > this day an > age we should not worry so much for such size. > > Cheers. > > -- > Paolo > ___ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > http://lists.blender.o
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Hey Ton. Yes, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced that the two things should be running together. My question was born by the observation that to include a checker we had to convert it to C code. That seemed like an high barrier and wanted to see if we could add a system to expand the amount of textures without requiring coding. I love what Pixologic is doing with their library of textures and alphas and I'm thinking of adding a texture browser to Blender. We could have a library of textures/alphas stored on blender.org. Blender's browser would than be able to connect to the library and show you the textures available. With a mouse click you can then add the texture to your local library and integrate in the Browser so that you can recall it at any time. You need a special pattern to create a cookie (cucoloris)? One click and you get it from the on-line library, apply it to a plane and place one spot-light behind. Very cool. Anyway, I'm getting familiar with the Blender code, I have some time off from my own project so I'll see what I can do about it. Reqarding Siggraph, it would be my honor do be there demoing Blender. I'll PM you for the details. Thanks! -- Paolo Ciccone www.preta3d.com www.paolociccone.com On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Ton Roosendaal wrote: > Hi Paolo, > > I don't think your requirements conflict with ours. The implications > on what might be 'easy to use' can differ though, which is why we made > a more flexible and configurable Blender 2.5 architecture. > > In some not-too-far future I'd welcome packagers creating special > configured UIs with keymaps tweaked for people with a specific > background, creative aims, or specific hardware. > > At this very stage that's too early though. I would prefer to narrow > down our development targets to an absolute minimum, all focused on > getting the 2.5 series out of beta in the shortest time. That will > benefit everyone best, including you :) > > BTW: will you be available for Siggraph demos? Would rock! :) > > -Ton- > > > Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org > Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands > > On 26 Mar, 2010, at 19:10, Paolo Ciccone wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Harley Acheson > >wrote: > > > >> Paolo, > >> > >> You might be assuming that you are arguing for something that > >> Campbell > >> is against. That might not be the case. > >> > > > > I really didn't assume anything. I only assume that Campbell is > > extra busy, > > we know by all the records about Blender, Durian etc. :) > > > > And I wasn't talking about Campbell in particular but about the > > development > > of Blender in general. Brilliant coders, such as Ton and Campbell and > > everyone improving Blender, are light-years > > ahead of the user of Blender. > > My post was not meant to stir up troubles and I hope we can keep a > > "level > > head" about this. Blender is used by end users. It's a free tool. > > Anybody > > can download it. > > That doesn't mean that we have to dumb it down but we know that > > there are > > many people who used other 3D packages professionally and they can be > > stumped by Blender. > > BTW, professional is a term that I see abused and misintepreted a > > lot. It > > doesn't refer to a developer. It doesn't refer to somebody with an > > incredible deep technical knowledge. > > Professional means that you get paid for what you do. You program > > for a > > living? You are a professional programmer. You get paid to flip > > burgers? You > > are a professional burger > > flipper. > > The feedback to my popular "Blender Survival Guide" on Creative COW > > highlighted the needs of the Motion Graphic artists. Those are > > professionals > > in the motion pictures industry who know programs like After Effects > > and > > FCP, they are very well respected in their field, but didn't know > > how to > > tackle Blender. > > Now, because of the "BSG" a few more of them do know it and they > > like it. I > > don't think that there is anything wrong in making Blender more > > approachable > > for that kind of professional. > > Some of them are not professional modelers, yet, but then again > > Blender is a > > very feature-rich program that can be used for many reasons. > > > > I'm sorry if my reference to Apple has upset people but objectively, > > yes, > > they are the benchmark of user friendliness in computing. From the > > moment > > you open the box of one of their products you can see the care, the > > maniacal attention to details that goes into providing the best "first > > impression" possible. I don't think that there is enough > > appreciation for > > how important that is. The first impression, how easily you can > > approach > > a product, is often what will capture a user/customer for life. You > > might > > not like Apple but their product design is
Re: [Bf-committers] new UV test grid
Campbell: I wanted to say is that I have to written code in python that proved it could be implemented, and I pushed a little here or there to get my idea into blender :) I'm not only asking for, I did something by myself. The way this grid is implemented is enough for me, If I was implementing it I would make it in different way (because my idea ), but they aren't necessary because main usability is achieved ;) Paolo: I think tat download-able texture pack will be better idea :) because if everyone start streaming textures it could kill bandwidth, but someone must create that library -- hubert ___ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
