Re: DEC archives

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 16 June 2017 at 16:17, Alan Perry via cctalk  wrote:
> that it was in an inappropriate format and that I was "wasting everybody's 
> time".

That's not good. What format did you use, JOOI?

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Re: Where to send scans for publishing and preservation - Re: DEC archives

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 17 June 2017 at 02:54, Jason Scott via cctalk  wrote:
> Archive.org will take all your scans no questions asked. Mail me if you
> need assistance.


Thanks for that -- it's good to know.

But please can you bottom-post?

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Re: File recovery help needed (Alabama)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 23 June 2017 at 17:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
> That was a rhetorical question.  Don't you hate rhetorical questions?

Oh very good. *Slow handclap*

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Re: iMac ethernet connection quit - help?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 26 June 2017 at 16:44, Tapley, Mark via cctech  wrote:
> All,
>  having problems with my iMac G3. Ethernet stopped working, but still 
> shows some signs of life. Any suggestions welcome!


Some superficially odd questions...

What OS is it running?

Is the firmware up to date?

If the firmware isn't, you *will* experience problems with OS X. If it
is running OS X, you can't update the firmware -- you need Classic
MacOS 9 to do that. :-(

Have you tried a different hub?
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Re: iMac ethernet connection quit - help?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 27 June 2017 at 16:56, Tapley, Mark  wrote:
> Next order of business for me is probably net-surfing for G3 firmware 
> upgrade info, then trying to build a USB boot disk and use it. As always 
> suggestions most welcome!


G3s can't boot off USB.

But if you have Classic installed, you should be able to boot into that.

If so, check the connection there too.


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Re: iMac ethernet connection quit - help?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 28 June 2017 at 18:05, Tapley, Mark  wrote:
> I did spend some time running a USB stick upstairs and down. The 
> self-mounting image (.smi) firmware update I found (4.1.9) is 1.3 MB on my 
> MacBook Pro before it goes onto the stick, but only 1 MB on the G3 when it 
> comes off the stick (in OS9). And, likely related, I get an error 39, 
> incomplete file, when I try to mount it on the G3. I will try booting back 
> into OSX.4 on the G3 and downloading from the USB stick that way, to see if 
> it helps. Also could try retrieving the file to the stick on the G4, mounting 
> the G3 as a Firewire target from the G4, etc.. - I want to get that .smi on 
> there intact!


Try formatting the stick on the Mac running Classic MacOS. It should
be in HFS+ format, not FAT -- you can't safely move Classic MacOS
files on FAT volumes.

I would vigorously contest Classic MacOS as being in any way "clunky".
It is the last of the line of real original Apple Macintosh operating
systems. Mac OS X is a Unix, bought in from NeXT. It's a good Unix, a
lovely smooth desktop OS -- I'm typing on it now -- but it's not a
real Mac.

They're totally different environments, with trivial cosmetic resemblances.

But if you're not used to Classic, it's like nothing else you've ever used.


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Re: iMac ethernet connection quit - help?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 29 June 2017 at 17:34, Tapley, Mark  wrote:
>
> I think i virtually did that - I switched to using my 1st-gen iPod 
> (shuffle, no screen) as a USB transfer device. However I’m not certain, 
> because something else fixed the problem.

Nah, the Shuffle isn't first gen. It's about 5th gen. The original
click-wheel Firewire-only iPod 5GB is first gen. That will default to
HFS+ I think. Most of the later ones use FAT32, I believe.

> When I hit the same Apple URL from TenFourFox on the G4, it 
> automatically chose to send me a .bin file containing the .smi, which 
> transferred intact to the iPod and thence to the G3, and un-bin-hexed into an 
> .smi image that mounted on the G3, so that part of the problem is solved. I 
> ran out of time to actually do the firmware update last night, and probably 
> can’t get to it until the weekend :-( but will report.

Ah, right, good. That'll do it, yes.

> I did try connecting ethernet on the G3 while in Mac OS 9.2 No light 
> on the hub. I could not find a way to force the baud rate in Mac OS 9.2 (part 
> of my “fumbling” below) so I never did see a connect light in that 
> configuration. I didn’t try pinging, presuming that no light definitively 
> meant no packets flowing.

Just checking -- you've tried different cables? Even unplugging the
same one and reconnecting it the opposite way round can help! (My
theory is that if there are old patterns of wear or corrosion on the
connectors in either the plugs or sockets, reversing the direction of
the cable forces the connectors to scrape new clean patches. It has
worked for me, genuinely.)

I'd suspect the hub, though. Perhaps it's had some software update
that's affected it?

> In most ways I agree! My daily driver for about a decade was a 
> PowerBook 3400 - starting in MacOS 7.6 (? I think - whatever came with the 
> machine new) and going straight through to MacOS 9.1. I worked on putting the 
> then-new OSX onto it but never succeeded and every iteration of 10.x looked 
> *slow* compared to 9.1 at the time - I was used to the key-stroke short-cuts 
> on 9.1 and loved it, and finally decided that was exactly what belonged on 
> that machine. (Who ever heard of having to *log in* to my own laptop? :-) ). 
> Mac OS 7 -> 9 and Eudora were the killer apps on which a large fraction of my 
> career success rested, and I do *not* want to sell that system short by any 
> means!
> Simultaneously, though, I was getting accustomed to the UI on my NeXT 
> computer, and I have gotten pretty settled into that (and derivative) UI on 
> the PB G4 that replaced the 3400 and on the MacBook with which I eventually 
> replaced the G4. (No, I never offered to return the old machines and yes, I 
> sitll have them!). So despite what should be muscle memory, I find myself 
> fumbling a bit when I try to do things on MacOS 9 - that’s what I was 
> referring to.

Oh my! Both a Classic user _and_ a NeXT user! I retract my comments, then.

I like both Classic and OS X, but honestly, for UI polish, I mostly
prefer Classic. There are subtle features I still miss, such as
Drawers and the pervasive spatial metaphor. A lot has been added back
and I do like OS X -- I'm typing into Sierra on a 2011 Mini right now
-- but it doesn't 100% feel like a Mac any more.

My original 1980s Apple Extended keyboard helps. :-) Sadly it's a US
layout one, but that is much less of a problem on a Mac than on a PC.

> Agreed, and for identical hardware, I think there are pretty few 
> contexts in which MacOS 9 is not faster.

Oh, yes, definitely. Although for me, in terms of snappy
responsiveness, nothing ever beat 8.1 on a fast 68040 machine. I'm
still upset that I missed a Quadra 840 on my local Freecycle group
nearly a decade ago.

Mind you, BeOS stomped all over Classic for responsiveness...

> Thanks again for your suggestions, and I’ll let you know how it goes 
> this weekend.

Please do!

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Re: DEC LK201 Keyboards for VT220 terminals etc.

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Aaron Jackson 
Date: 17 May 2016 at 11:28
Subject: LK401 Keyboard
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org


Hi all,

Bought a VT420 off eBay last night which should be arriving sometime
this week. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a keyboard. Is there
anyone near Nottingham (UK) willing to sell an DEC LK401 keyboard for a
fair price?

Thanks,

Aaron

On 30 June 2017 at 05:28, Richard Loken via cctalk
 wrote:
> It seems to me that somebody recently was looking for an LK201 style
> keyboard with the RJ style connector.  If somebody is indeed looking for
> such a keyboard then send me an email, I came across a couple today that
> I may be able to aquire.
>
> --
>   Richard Loken VE6BSV: "...underneath those tuques we wear,
>   Athabasca, Alberta Canada   : our heads are naked!"
>   ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black



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Re: DEC LK201 Keyboards for VT220 terminals etc.

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 30 June 2017 at 19:12, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
> Just saw this - All good here. I have an LK401 and LK201 :)
>
> Thanks Liam,

No worries. I have a box of the things myself, waiting for me to try
to fix up my 3 VAXstation 4000VLCs. Any spares -- including 2 of the
VAXstations -- will be heading for eBay. The snag is that they're now
in Czechia. :-)

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Re: Mailuefterl Emulator in JavaScript

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 9 July 2017 at 21:45, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk
 wrote:
> The Mailuefterl (German for "may breeze", an allusion to much bigger US
> computers like "Whirlwind" or "Typhoon") was the first fully
> transistorized computer in (continental) Europe. It was built at the
> Technical University of Vienna (Austria) from 1955 to 1958 by Dr. Heinz
> Zemanek and his team. Now the machine does not work any more and can be
> seen at the technical museum in Vienna.
>
> In 2007 I wrote an emulator for this pioneering machine as a Java
> applet, and now ported it to JavaScript to make it usable again in
> modern browsers.
>
> You can try this historical computer as an emulation in your browser at
> my site at http://members.aon.at/nkehrer
>
> It contains some original and self-written code snippets to play around
> with, and I also shortly described the instruction set of this old machine.

Very impressive!

I've shared your site on the FB Vintage Computer Club group -- hope
you get a few more visitors that way. :-)

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Re: Solaris 8 & Oracle 8i for Intel

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 18 July 2017 at 10:52, Richard Smith via cctalk
 wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My clear-out has just revealed a complete install pack on CD for Solaris 8
> for Intel platform, and a boxed set of Oracle 8i installation CDs for
> Solaris on Intel.
>
> Are these of interest to anyone here or should I trash them?
>
> All the best,
>
> Richard
>
> Bristol, England
>
> --

There's a chap on another list I'm on that might be interested...


-- Forwarded message --
From: Earl Baugh 
Date: 17 July 2017 at 19:36
Subject: [rescue] What version of Solaris for V120?
To: "res...@sunhelp.org List" 


I've been working on the rack in my office and swapped out some machines
for some "new-old" machines that will take less space
(and allow for more disk storage which is what I find I need more of).  I'm
keeping the E420 and E220 in the rack (both because it's the best physical
place for them, and they're fun to run during the winter :-) ).  But the
SS10 and Sun Blade 150 went down to the collection...(with the Apple II's,
Sun 1, etc.)

So, in the spirit of the discussion of which Solaris version to install,
I'm looking for a Sun branded version of Solaris (I'd really rather NOT see
that Oracle logo...just turns my stomach :-) ) .   I'm going to be making
this my web server, so will need Tomcat, Python and maybe some sort of
DB... but I'm flexible on that.   I have a couple decent size SCSI drives
for it (and a new-old Snap SAN box that supports NFS so can load up storage
via that...run on sata disks so easy to keep that going for a while).

So, Solaris 8?  Or?   I'm not concerned about running the latest and
greatest.
What patch version?   (I believe I have access to a collection of patches
via a local contact, so that's not an issue).
I'm going to compile/build whatever code I'm running on it, so don't
necessarily need packages.

Thoughts?
(this machine is next up on the list to get things going...)

Earl
___
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue



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Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 18 July 2017 at 20:27, Ian Finder via cctalk  wrote:
> Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory
> poachers.

I appreciate that bottom-posting just got a bit harder on Gmail, but
it still works.

I confess to much trepidation at the hate for keyboard collectors, as
I am one. I'm typing on a late-1980s Apple Extended on my 2011 Mac
mini right now, connected via an ABD->USB convertor. Works beautifully
and makes the Mini feel like a proper Mac to me.

My desktop PC, meanwhile, has an IBM Model M, as do my work machines.
I have half a dozen of these beauties and I adore them.

I also have a small cache of DEC 420 keyboards for when I get around
to resurrecting my DEC VAXstations.

But all of the machines these came off went to new homes with a
working (but inferior) keyboard attached.

We're not _all_ evil, you know.

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Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 July 2017 at 07:03, Sam O'nella via cctalk  wrote:
> Extremely interesting Fred. I hadn't heard of half of those experimental disk 
> sizes.  Are those stories from your experience or from that article? (Yes 
> I'll rtfm shortly).
> The only odd one i have is a backup cartridge? that resembles around a 3.5" 
> but is in fact closer to the mythical 12" floppy. Actually here's the picture 
> i brought 8", 5.25" and a CED to show size comparison. 
> http://www.main.org/ctacs/history/2015/20151001/20151001ctacs3744.html
> null

Ditto!

I was aware of Twiggy disks, Hitachi 3" as used in Amstrad and Tatung,
and of one that I think Fred _didn't_ mention: the 2" 720 kB diskettes
used in the Zenith Minisport:

http://oldcomputers.net/zenith-minisport.html

... but none of the rest.

We all know what 3.5" diskettes were called in South Africa, right?

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Re: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 24 May 2017 at 10:25, Pontus Pihlgren  wrote:
> I think so. It would at least be nice to see a picture.
>
> If it's smallish I might even pay postage for it :D

OK, I've taken some photos and listed it. Mine is a UK eBay account so
prices are in GBP. Opening bid is one penny. P&P is an estimate -- I
have not shipped much from here in Czechia but it's generally cheap.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/272771471853

Bigger pics in the Flickr album:

https://www.flickr.com/gp/lproven/dsH6m2


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Re: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 July 2017 at 18:32, Liam Proven  wrote:
> On 24 May 2017 at 10:25, Pontus Pihlgren  wrote:
>> I think so. It would at least be nice to see a picture.
>>
>> If it's smallish I might even pay postage for it :D
>
> OK, I've taken some photos and listed it. Mine is a UK eBay account so
> prices are in GBP. Opening bid is one penny. P&P is an estimate -- I
> have not shipped much from here in Czechia but it's generally cheap.
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/272771471853
>
> Bigger pics in the Flickr album:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/lproven/dsH6m2

I've added 7 photos of a disk pack case -- I think from the same
machine. Alas the actual disks were thrown away long ago.

Can anyone identify the type of disk pack from the case?

The Flickr album is here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lproven/sets/72157683818706204

My flatmate has at least half a dozen more of these disk packs, used
for storing sundry junk in the garage (!). Are they of interest to
anyone?


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Re: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 22 July 2017 at 18:11, Liam Proven  wrote:

>
> I've added 7 photos of a disk pack case -- I think from the same
> machine. Alas the actual disks were thrown away long ago.
>
> Can anyone identify the type of disk pack from the case?
>
> The Flickr album is here:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lproven/sets/72157683818706204
>
> My flatmate has at least half a dozen more of these disk packs, used
> for storing sundry junk in the garage (!). Are they of interest to
> anyone?

Aargh! He threw another one in the trash just today!

Anyway. I think I have now made the Flickr album public if anyone was
having difficulty opening the images.

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Re: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 23 July 2017 at 15:17, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
> It wants me to create an account.  I am certainly not going to give them
> a bunch of personal information just to see a picture.

As you wish.

It's a Yahoo site -- any Yahoo account will work, but as I said, I've
made the pics public.

The reason I use it is that Flickr gives you a very generous 1TB of
free storage and, unlike Photobucket, doesn't restrict what you do
with them. I have also seen complaints about ads and popups on
Photobucket, so Flickr seemed a safer option.

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Re: Run/Stop switch from a Soviet S/370 clone

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 23 July 2017 at 20:20, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Well, they are obviously not public if you have to have an account to see 
> them.  :-)

Just in case anyone is interested, I have listed one disk-pack cover
on eBay. Starting bid GBP 0.01 -- one penny. No account needed to
view, but one is needed to bid.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272774029874

I've also listed some 8" disk boxes if anyone wants them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272774014688

Again, £0.01.

Happy to post both items at cost price to ClassicCmp list members.

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Re: determing date on TI 99/4 computers.

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 6 September 2017 at 16:55, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk
 wrote:

> There's a pretty good article about TI's home computers that I've been
> trying to find that lays out a pretty convincing argument for why the 4A
> was not successful in the market despite early success.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/heroic-failures/the-texas-instruments-994-worlds-first-16bit-computer

...?

Also see:

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/whatever-happened-to-the-texas-instruments-home-computer/

A more positive, nostalgic look:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/27/community_builds_around_ti_99_4a/

There was a later successor model from another company, the Geneve
9640. A complete computer in its own right, it plugged into the
99/4A's Peripheral Expansion Box and totally replaced it.

It shows what the machine could have been, if TI hadn't crippled it
for fear of competing with its higher-end models.

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=1208&st=1

A bit more info including a scan of the product brochure:

http://www.mainbyte.com/ti99/geneve/geneve.html

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Re: Scavenging higher-end models (Was: Re: determing date on TI 99/4 computers.)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 6 September 2017 at 20:46, Tapley, Mark  wrote:
> On Sep 6, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk  
> wrote:
>
>> It shows what the machine could have been, if TI hadn't crippled it
>> for fear of competing with its higher-end models.
>
> I have heard similar arguments repeatedly, in reference to systems 
> from multiple different companies (DEC in particular, but also IBM, TI as 
> above, etc.).
>
> It seems so short-sighted as to be almost improbable to me. Of 
> *course* if a company can offer similar performance in a cheaper model, they 
> should do that. The high-end customers will still pay premium for the slight 
> extra performance, but the lower-end model will enable a whole cadre of users 
> and developers which would otherwise have been priced away to the competition.
>
> Is this just 20/20 hindsight on my part, or are there factors I don’t 
> understand in this decision? If it’s just internal company politics - 
> high-end system group doesn’t want to get squeezed from below - the CEO’s job 
> is to put a stop to that, I would think.

If there is a general case to be made -- and it's a bit tricky -- then
it's perhaps this:

[1] Make the best system you can for a particular price-point. If
hitting a particular price-point is going to mean horribly
compromising the product, then you probably shouldn't be competing in
that market.

[2] Recognise that home computers are not business computers. What a
home/leisure user wants is not the same as what a professional wants.
Don't attempt to price-gouge the pros, don't attempt to fob home users
off with second-rate rubbish.

[3] If attempting to do both of these means that you have either type
of product stomping all over the other, then you have failed to
properly identify and differentiate your 2 separate markets.

Examples...

The Commodore VIC-20 and the Sinclair ZX-81 were both horribly
compromised, lousily-specified toys, useless for anything serious. But
at the time, that's all a budget home machine could do, and because
the companies' rivals were not offering budget home machines -- they
offered $1000+ pro-level kit -- the machines were huge successes.

Both companies did successor models that were significantly better
(the C64 and ZX Spectrum) and which sold very well.

Then both companies lost the plot a bit and the successor models to
_them_ were both rather poor.

CBM fooled around with incompatible machines that didn't advance the SOTA much.

Sinclair flailed and adapted an uninspiring Spanish model, the
Spectrum 128, which failed to address one of the older model's most
serious failings -- its poor graphics. This is doubly tragic as Timex
_had_ addressed this in the TS2068. If Sinclair had adopted Timex'
improved ULA, the Spectrum 128 would have been a significantly more
competitive machine.

(Another more niche tweak is that the Timex machine could page RAM in
in place of the ROM, enabling it to run CP/M. The Sinclair model
couldn't until years later with the Amstrad designed-and-built
Spectrum +3.)

TI was afraid its home computer would compete with its business
machines, so it crippled it, leaving an uncompetitive product. But the
business machines weren't competitive anyway, and weren't big sellers.

Either it could have just made a more expensive but uncrippled TI99/4A
-- with, say, 32 kB of 16-bit RAM directly attached to the CPU, a
native-code BASIC interpreter instead of 2 different ones, and dumped
the cartridge port and the PEB.

It would have been considerably more expensive than the VIC-20 that it
tried to compete with. The smarter choice would have been to embrace
that and just go with it, IMHO.


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Re: determing date on TI 99/4 computers.

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 7 September 2017 at 04:07, Sam O'nella via cctalk
 wrote:

> I don't know if it was my newb brain/false memory but i thought I saw someone 
> post a ti-99/2 prototype before

It was a thing:

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=267

Never made it onto retail sale, though.

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Free Acorn RISC OS kit offer (California, USA)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

Peter Naulls is the creator of the Unix Porting Project, which
successfully created Acorn RISC OS versions of some FOSS Unix apps
such as Firefox:

http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Unix_Porting_Project

Alas it never really caught on as Acorn users tend to be very insular
and did not understand the significance of this remarkable tool.

He relocated from the UK to California a few years ago.

He no longer works on RISC OS stuff and he wishes to dispose of the
machines that he took with him -- an original Acorn RISC PC and a
Castle Technologies Iyonix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RiscPC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyonix_PC

Apparently the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley has turned
them down after initially indicating interest.

He hopes that  they will be preserved in a collection or museum,
ideally for public display or failing that a private one. He's not
looking for money for them. As he puts it, "there's history there".

He has given me written permission to post here and give his email
address, which is his forename, "peter" -- the domain is chocky.org.

I know Acorn kit is relatively rate States-side so I thought this
might be of interest...

I don't have much more info but I will help if I can. Best to contact
him directly, though.

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Re: Free Acorn RISC OS kit offer (California, USA)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 18 September 2017 at 16:51, Zane Healy  wrote:
> I can’t help but think that in the US, this belongs in a museum.

I agree and that is Peter's thought as well.

>
> For those wanting to give RISC OS a try, it’s available for the Raspberry Pi 
> (and yes, that’s why I bought a Pi).

Yes, I have a bootable RISC OS µSD card for my own RasPi 3. :-)


> I would have thought that the RISC OS community would be appreciative of an 
> app such as Firefox being available.

You would think, wouldn't you?

However, by RISC OS standards it is a huge and very slow app, and
being a ported Unix app, it does not follow RISC OS user interface
conventions.

http://www.osnews.com/story/15798/The-Slightly-Strange-World-of-RISC-OS/

So it was not widely adopted, nobody helped with the port, and it sort
of withered on the vine. Tragic given the amount of effort that Peter
put into it.

He developed a library offering a Unix API to apps running under RISC OS:

http://www.riscos.info/index.php/UnixLib

There was, I think, an existing port of GCC:

http://www.riscos.info/index.php/GCCSDK

But again, RISC OS users didn't like it as you couldn't readily built
RISC OS itself and RISC OS apps with it -- for that, you needed
Acorn's very expensive Norcroft C compiler.

Peter also wrote another library allowing X.11 apps to run under RISC OS:

http://www.riscos.info/index.php/ChoX11

It also supported other apps, including SDL for some games:

http://www.drobe.co.uk/article.php?id=655&hlt=peter+naulls

They, or rather he with a little assistance, ported a number of apps
and provided dev tools.

https://archive.org/details/cdrom-riscos-cunix

But the apps were considered large, inefficient, they did not blend in
with existing RISC OS apps, so nobody else got on board.

Also, RISC OS was and is proprietary and there's a strong culture of
paying for software and hardware. There are commercial apps which on
other platforms would be considered toys. They have the attitude that
anything that's free can't be any good. The community is surprisingly
lively, but they're mostly quite elderly now -- I used to go to the
meetings in London and in my mid-40s was most often the youngest
person there. They are 60-70 year olds who reluctantly moved to GUI
computing some 30-odd years back and do not want to move on again,
particularly to foreign (i.e. non-British) software which is, by RISC
OS standards, huge and slow and inefficient.

I have some sympathy -- I cut my teeth on RISC OS myself, and I retain
a fondness for it. It was a blisteringly quick OS with a powerful,
elegant UI. The _only_ other desktop OS I've ever used that came close
was BeOS.

OS/2, Windows, Linux and *BSD, all are horrid sprawling messes of
half-implemented cruft by comparison. :-D

I never even really "got" the Amiga and AmigaOS -- I chose an
Archimedes instead and never regretted it for a second.

All IMHO natch and I do not mean to represent any individual.

Anyway, in the end, Peter took another job and basically dropped his
involvement with the RO community. Tragic, but I understand why.

Anyway, I think this is to whom he offered the machines:

http://www.computerhistory.org/

Whether anyone else would want them, e.g.
http://www.livingcomputers.org/ I do not know.

But I hope someone rescues them.

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Re: HP 2108A key

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 September 2017 at 18:02, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> I dunno what all thathe means
>
>
> Q: Do you WANT to know what all thathe means?
>
>> I am offering to
>> .look thru shoe box of keys I Ave one if the thin mx processors do not
>> temember what number but I know Keyes not in it... I used to come home after
>> a hard day with computers and if I had weird keys 30 plus years ago they
>> went into a box or plastic bag..
>
>
> So, YOU are the guy who always walked off with the keys at the end of the
> day, and never brought them back.


Well, you know: certain things are correlated.

"I am too important to bother to learn how to quote properly."

"I am too important to bother to return keys."

Both mean that the person doesn't respect other people, and expects
them to just work around their "adorable little eccentricities".

It means, in short, "fsck you".

I don't know about anyone else, but I know how _I_ respond to folk like that.

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Re: HP 2108A key

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 September 2017 at 18:35, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
> We all do it.
> I have my share of random keys from random unknown sources.

Sure, me too.

> There are plenty of things that I have no clue about.
> Some of which I would like to learn, and might or might not ever make the
> effort to do so;  and some that I don't want to know.

Absolutely. Also me.

> In the 1970s, between "the collapse of aerospace", and the availability of
> "tabletop computers" (I guessed wrong on what they would be called), I did
> auto repair, and learned the basics of that particular form of locksmithing
> and code cutting.  Otherwise, I would still be completely ignorant on the
> subject.
>
> I hope that we can chide each other, as friends.

No offence taken here. I was surprised, but it's a fair cop.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to curb my curmudgeonliness as
I approach 50.

I think I must glumly conclude that there is basically nowhere that it
is safe to air it, and I must be constantly vigilant to rein it in.

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Re: HP 2108A key

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 September 2017 at 19:59, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> We can sit on the front porch, waving our canes, and yelling at the kids to
> get off of the lawn.

Well quite.

> And continue to rant about the decline in education, software quality, and
> users, such as email clients that don't even show the user what they failed
> to trim in replies.

Gmail disabled its select-to-quote Labs feature recently, and now,
bottom quoting is significantly harder.

FOSS is meant to be better at copying existing software than creating
new stuff. I really wish someone had cloned the old,
pre-simplification GMail interface ...

http://blog.bobbyallen.me/2011/11/02/google-updates-its-web-mail-gmail-gui/

... and made it an app that could run against any random IMAP server.

But this is off-topic, so I'll shut up.


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Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 26 September 2017 at 20:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:

... as usual, lots of high-quality info. Can't disagree with any of it.

> There were several additional programs, that were sometimes needed, such as
> if you wanted to have a partition larger than 32MB on DOS 3.30 or earlier
> (MS-DOS 3.31 was first to accept larger partitions).

Until this bit!

Vanilla PC-DOS and MS-DOS didn't get past 3.3, TTBOMK.

The first DOS I saw that could handle >32MB partitions was Compaq DOS
3.31 -- they tweaked it slightly.

It didn't help me inasmuch as at the time, the main use for such
"huge" disks was in fileservers -- and my company used 3Com 3+Share, a
weird MS-DOS based fileserver with internal multitasking.

It was _very_ picky about what additional DOS utilities it would work with.

For larger hard disks, the only supported tool was something from
Golden Bow Systems, later known for their Vopt disk-defragger.

I tried with Compaq DOS 3.31 -- it died messily, as I recall.

I also tried a special memory managed for 80286 PS/2s which could turn
the 384 kB of XMS into EMS, which 3+Share could use for a disk cache.

Yeah, that crashed a customer's live fileserver, corrupting thousands
of files. And I did it, so I had to restore all the files they'd
edited, one by one, from backups. On floppy diskette. And for the
hundred-odd they'd edited since the last backup, undelete them, one by
one.

Days of work. It was the only disciplinary measure I got, as it was
unpaid for the client and immensely tedious (and humiliating) for me.

One customer had a Model 80 (a 386) machine with a 330MB hard disk,
but  wouldn't spring for Golden Bow's disk manager. It had drives C:,
D:, E:, F:, G:, H:, I:, J:, K: and L:.

Muggins here had to arrange a pattern of disk shares to try and
usefully employ all that space. I did manual hashing of user's home
directories for  some of it.

So, anyway, yes, circa 1989, DOS supported disk partition sizes were a
subject of intense professional interest for me, and really,
seriously, the only 3.x era MS-DOS family OS I ever saw with >32MB
support was Compaq's.

It ran fine on any machine. I used it on several. I may still have a
copy somewhere.

That employer only sold IBM and Compaq kit, and being that the UK was
poorer back then, mostly I only saw those and other cheaper clone PCs.
We didn't get to see some of the other States-side premium ranges, or
*I* didn't, until later, in the early-to-mid 1990s. So other vendors
may have had larger-disk-partition hacks, too. I recall reading of
some -- Wikipedia claims Commodore, Leading Edge, AST, NEC, AT&T,
Tandy, Sperry & Unisys all fiddled with FAT formats.


Golden Bow's _didn't_ work with MS-DOS 4 and later, which had built-in
support for larger partitions. Compaq DOS did -- I think MS, or rather
IBM, picked up Compaq's schema and used it. Later it was named FAT16B
or BigDOS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table#Logical_sectored_FAT


> And, you needed an overlay, such as ONTRACK, to use a drive larger than
> 504MB.
> Also, if you had a drive whose geometry was too incompatible with your
> computer - not all CMOS/SETUPs had a user-defined drive parameters option.

Oh my yes -- that was a whole 'nother world of pain.

Even in the late 1990s, I was occasionally dealing with this. I
incrementally expanded a friend's cheapo Dell Pentium-133 PC for him.
64 MB RAM, IDT WinChip CPU upgrade, bigger hard disk.

The original drive was a 120MB or so. The BIOS couldn't handle drives
over 512MB. (No Logical Block Addressing.) So I installed OnTrack Disk
Manager, moved his Win95B install to the new drive, converted it to
FAT32 with PartitionMagic, hooked up his old drive as a slave, made it
drive D:, and secured it in place with duct tape and cable ties.

Years later he handed it on to his dad. Later, his dad asked a friend
to look at the machine for him. Word was passed back to dad, to my
mate, and to me:

"Blimey. Whoever your son's mate was who upgraded this PC for him, he
did an amazing job. I've never seen such an old PC tricked out as much
as this, and it's great workmanship."

I remain inordinately pleased by that, some 20y later...

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Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 26 September 2017 at 21:33, Phil Blundell via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Low-level formatting (which, at the time, was just called "formatting")
> used to be quite a routine operation on ST-506 MFM and RLL hard disks.
> They usually came completely blank from the factory and you had to
> format them according to whatever sector layout and interleave your
> particular controller wanted before they were usable.  Once the drive
> was formatted you then had to run a separate process to lay out an
> actual filesystem.

All true, although by the time I entered the industry in 1988 or so,
it was normal for drives to ship low-level formatted, at least.

I remember that Netware came with a special tool called COMPSURF to do
a "comprehensive surface analysis".

There's still a passing mention of this here:
https://support.novell.com/subscriptions/readmes/114.html

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Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 27 September 2017 at 18:29, allison via cctalk  wrote:

>>
> Everyone forgets Norton Utilities...

Well, no!

Still use it, in fact.  I have a copy of the last DOS version.

A low-priority project of mine is that I am trying to make a running
VirtualBox VM with PC-DOS 7.1.

Not 7.01, but the version from the IBM Server Scripting Toolkit, with
LBA and FAT32 support.

My plan, if I can, is to get a few of the significant GUIs & my
favourite apps running. FreeGEM, ViewMax, GEOS, DOSShell, DESQview &
DESQview/X. And maybe MS Word 6, PC Outline, WordPerfect 6.

Some stuff I could do actual productive work in, even now.

But only a little bit of PC DOS 7.1 was released -- no SETVER, no SYS,
no FORMAT, etc. So making a bootable disk is proving tricky. Norton is
helping but only slightly. No full success yet: only a bootable floppy
image, nothing more.

But I don't remember NU doing low-levels. I know NDD could do sector
testing and surface analysis, but only on DOS-formatted volumes, IIRC.



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Re: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 27 September 2017 at 20:25, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2017, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> ... as usual, lots of high-quality info. Can't disagree with any of it.
>
>
> thanks.  many errors, due to inadequately refreshed dynamic wet-ware RAM
> Chuck will probably notice most of them.

:-)

>> Vanilla PC-DOS and MS-DOS didn't get past 3.3, TTBOMK.
>
>
> My turn to nit-pick.
>
> There never was ANY version 3.3 !
> And certainly no three point three!
> You mean version 3 point THIRTY!  (3.30)

Oh, OK.

Honestly, as a holder of a battered dusty old science degree, the
number _after_ the decimal is only used digit-by-digit. It's never
three point thirty, it's three point three zero, and that is
equivalent to three point three.

> 3.30 gave an AX of 1E03 ("three point thirty")
> 3.31 gave an AX of 1F03 ("three point thirty-one")
> 2.10 gave an AX of 0A02 ("two point ten")
> 2.11 gave an AX of 0B02 ("two point eleven")
> "three point three" would be AX of 0303, and would be 3.03

Makes me wince, but I defer.

> How about ZENITH?

Never saw them here. Virtually a US-only company AFAIK.

> Were the tweaks done BY Compaq, or by Compaq and Microsoft, in preparation
> for support in later versions of DOS?

Don't know.

> 3.31 was only available as OEM versions of MS-DOS.  There was no PC-DOS
> 3.31.

AIUI, yes.

> Some OEMs had enhancements.

So I heard, I think. Long time ago. Don't think I ever _saw_ any myself.

> 2.11 (0B02) was another version that was ONLY OEMs, often with some very
> strange changes/enhancements, such as support for odd drives such as 3.5"
> (not supported mainstream until 3.20 (1403)), MODE for switching between
> internal/external video and 8 or 16 line internal displays (Gavilan 2.11),
> etc.
> BTW, Gavilan started (NCC 1983) with 3.0" drive, then single sided 3.5"
> (SA300), and about the time that Gavilan destroyed itself (1985), they had
> double sided 3.5" (SA350).  Gavilan 3.5" double sided disk formats were
> different from PC-DOS 3.5" formats until Gavilan 2.11K (unofficially
> released after Gavilan was GONE.)  In converting a Gavilan to 720K, to get a
> clean look, transfer the bezel from a Gavilan SA300 to a stock SA350.
> Gavilan was one of MANY early laptops, a full year later than Grid Compass,
> but Gavilan appears likely to have been the first to use the term "laptop".

Before my time, I'm afraid.

I came in at 3.20 -- as in some old machines still had it.

In the UK, PCs were too expensive for most people except wealthy
businesses until Amstrad launched the PC 1512 and 1640.

So the clone industry happened in the UK after 1986.

> PC-DOS 4.00 (0004) was "buggy".  "The new DOS is so buggy that Norton
> Utilities won't work!"  How many of those "bugs" were simply CHANGES that
> Norton fUtilities and the like were not prepared for?
> PC-DOS 4.01 was supposedly "fixed" (think in a veterinary context?).
> I had a copy of PC-DOS 4.01 that returned 0004!  "ALL bugs fixed?"

Famously so. :-)

I didn't study internal version numbers, though.

> Prior to 5.00 (0005), MS-DOS was "only for sale with a computer, or as
> upgrade to such".  In THEORY, it was not available for retail sale, but
> there was a GIANT grey market, with no difficulty at all finding and buying
> copies.  There was NO apparent effort by Microsoft to rein in the gray
> market.

Yup.

DR-DOS changed that.

First version, 3.41 (?), very minor. Never saw it.

DR-DOS 5 though was a huge hit. We sold loads. I liked it. Preferred it, even.


> 5.00 was the first version with a RETAIL channel.  It was ten years after
> IBM and Microsoft signed - their contract obviously permitted Microsoft
> selling to OEMs, but was there a clause in their contract that forbade
> RETAIL sales [for ten years]?

Only because MS gazed upon DR's sales and became (even more) covetous.

> BTW, "PC-DOS" was "descriptive" ("Personal Computer Disk Operating System"),
> and was NOT a trademark.  I personally confirmed that in the stacks of the
> Patent nadTrademark Office in Virginia in 1987.

(!!)

> At least until after DRI brought "Concurrent PC-DOS" to market.
> IBM was not amused.
> http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/googleglassuspto.pdf
> "MS-DOS", however WAS trademarked.

No flies on MS.

> SETVER (starting with 5.00) was even more fun.
> Prior to that, one of the early assignments that I gave my Assembly Language
> class was to modify EXE2BIN (our copy which came with PC-DOS 2.00 and the
> IBM release of MASM 1.0, was locked to DOS 2.00) to be DOS version tolerant.

See my comment to Alison -- I need to wrangle that now for PC DOS 7.1.

> There was another, even more bizarre way to handle large drives, even larger
> than 512MB!
> In DOS 3.10 (0A03), they introduced the [undocumented?] "network
> redirector".  Remember MSCDEX?
> 3.10 had the 32MB limit.  But, a CD-ROM was 2/3 GB (about 660MB).  They
> handled it with smoke and mirrors.  If you tried to CHKDSK a CD-ROM
> CHKDSK D:
> It returned an error message:

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 1 October 2017 at 22:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
>
> Q: Is "SATA":  "Serial ATA" or "Serial AT Attachment"?

Serial ATA, to the best of my recollection.

>   (Did they reference
> an acronym without referencing the terms of the acronym, again?)

Yes.

> I am going to guess that "PARALLEL ATA" came into being as a NAME, after
> "SATA", solely to differentiate it.

Yes, this is correct.

However, it does not cover why the term "ATA" started to get used more
than "IDE".

I suspect there were 2 reasons.

[1] IDE is of course overloaded, and also means "Integrated
Development Environment". Plus "Serial IDE" would come out as "side"
which is a normal English word and thus potentially confusing, unlike
"sata" -- which isn't a word -- and "pata" which sounds like "patter"
but was less important as it was a retrospective renaming.

The real reason, I suspect, is that when optical drives -- i.e. CD
drives -- that attached to the IDE interface came along, they needed a
term for them. Yes, they had "integrated drive electronics" but so did
all CD drives. They were not "IDE compatible" -- they needed different
drivers, and I believe needed some rudimentary degree of awareness
from the IDE controller electronics and firmware.

Worse still, they re-used the same connector as used for Panasonic
interface CD drives.

https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/electronics/panasoniccd.html

There was also a proprietary Sony interface, which used the same
connector as the PC floppy drive IDC connector:

http://discussions.virtualdr.com/showthread.php?104601-Unusual-CD-Interface

And finally there was a Mitsumi interface as well:

 http://www.pcguide.com/ref/cd/confProprietary-c.html

Some ISA sound cards had all 3 interfaces.

[2] The other reason, I personally suspect, is that the term used for
the interface of CD drives that connected to the IDE bus was "ATAPI":
"AT Attachment Packet Interface".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_Packet_Interface

In my world, anyway, nobody had heard of ATA drives until ATAPI came
along. This popularised the term ATA, and then Serial ATA came along
and plain old parallel IDE was renamed parallel ATA, PATA.

>  Similarly to how "DOUBLE Density"
> bacame a name before "SINGLE Density" ("SINGLE" was only needed later, to
> differentiate it).

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. Before my time!

>   And how "WORLD WAR TWO" was used as a name before
> "WORLD WAR ONE" was ever used as a name ("The Great War" got renamed when it
> was important to compare and differentiate it it from its successor).

_Way_ before my time.

Although sadly I very much fear that WW3 will be in my time. Indeed,
might be the end of it.

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Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 2 October 2017 at 14:22, Jules Richardson via cctech
 wrote:
>
> Does anyone know why IDE/ATA even came about? I mean, why SCSI wasn't used?

Sure, yes.

It was cheap.

SCSI was expensive, and that was aside from any licensing issues. A
working SCSI bus effectively means 2 smart devices, communicating over
a defined _shared_ channel.

ST-506 was simple, dumb and cheap... like the IBM PC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST-506

As drive capacities grew, ESDI came along.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Small_Disk_Interface

I believe partly due to timing issues, some of the "smarts" of the
controller were moved from the disk controller card onto the drive
electronics -- but the cables were kept the same. (2 cables, 34 pin
control cable, with 3 connectors, shared by up to 2 drives; plus 2×
20-pin data cables, one per drive.)

Then most of the controller electronics were moved onto the drive, so
that no "disk controller" was needed any more -- the drive contained
the controller. Now the 2 cables were consolidated into a single
40-way cable, one end of which connected to the motherboard and the AT
bus. (The 16-bit bus from the IBM PC-AT, so called to distinguish it
from the 8-bit bus of the IBM PC.) The cable had 2 connectors for 2
drives, but they had to be jumpered to tell them which was master and
which was slave, and not all combinations worked, not in the early
days.

IDE was mainly an x86 PC thing at first. Later, the 2nd-generation
Acorn ARM machines had it, and the Commodore Amiga 1200 had an
on-board interface for a 2.5" notebook-sized IDE drive. Later still
Apple adopted it for its cheap home machines, the Performa PowerMacs.
In the early ones, I think the hard disk was IDE and the CD drive was
SCSI, and they still included a SCSI bus.

Around 1994 or so, I ordered some machines from Elonex intended to run
Windows NT 3.1. There was a substantial saving on ordering IDE models
instead of SCSI-equipped ones.

What I didn't know is that these had 540MB drives, and the IDE
definition only allowed for 1024 cylinders, 63 sectors per track and
16 heads -- meaning 528MB max.

These were not IDE drives, they were EIDE drives. Enhanced IDE.

NT 3.1 didn't understand EIDE. It couldn't do Logical Block
Addressing, only Cyl/Head/Track.

So to NT, the last 12MB of these drives was all bad blocks.


Returns and much argument followed. That got me a mention in
Microscope magazine, which later got me an interview at Dennis
Publishing and a job on PC Pro magazine. 21 years later, I'm a tech
writer at SUSE in Prague. Funny how life turns out.

Later, other limits came in at ~8GB, then at ~128GB, then a rather
different one at 2TB.

http://philipstorr.id.au/pcbook/book4/hdlimit.htm



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Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 6 October 2017 at 06:11, r.stricklin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Notwithstanding the first Macintosh models lacked SCSI entirely. The first 
> Macintosh with SCSI was the Plus, in 1986.

Well, this is true, but then again, there weren't many models of Mac
before the Mac Plus, were there?

AFAIK there was only the original Macintosh (128 kB RAM) and then the
Fat Mac (same machine, but with 512 kB RAM). That's it. No?

I have a Plus but it died while I was experimenting and I have the
electronics knowledge of an orang utan. How I'm going to fix it, I do
not know.

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Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 9 October 2017 at 19:52, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:

> I'm not entirely sure about that--the PC Megastore contained both a disk
> and a tape drive.  So more than a single device.

Did they have separately-settable IDs?

Otherwise, LUNs, I'd think, but I'd also expect that to flummox many drivers.

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Re: More videos of VCF's Univac

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 10 October 2017 at 07:00, Evan Koblentz via cctalk
 wrote:
> Here it is loading/running memory tests and Wumpus. :)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_e5fSxflvrzeovlnioDfQR86zJOLPQ-D

Wonderful -- but I do wish the camera operator had held their phone on its side!

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Re: Visicalc

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 17 October 2017 at 22:51, Murray McCullough via cctalk
 wrote:
> Today marks the 36 anniversary of Visicalc a seminal program in the
> world of classic computing.
>
> Happy computing!
>
> Murray  :)

I just had a dig through Dan Bricklin's website.

There's no date I can see for first release or first shipping,
although it comments that the first version shipped to customers was
1.35.

So it's not Visicalc 1.0's release, and anyway, it was 1979, so it's
thirty _eight_ years ago, no?

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Re: Visicalc Addendum

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 18 October 2017 at 01:33, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
> "Entry in my journal: First complete VisiCalc in a package was October 19,
> 1979. I received a copy the next day as I recall."
>
> http://www.bricklin.com/history/saiproduct1.htm
>
> So, Murray gave us a few extra days to prepare for the party.
>
>
> BTW, "conception of the idea" is what is commemorated at Harvard!
> SHIPMENT is a more objective measure, but vaporware is a tradition.

Hey, good discovery!

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Re: Acorn, Apple, IBM old computers up for auction (via Proxibid)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 25 October 2017 at 03:31, Mark Linimon via cctalk
 wrote:
> There are a few lots that may be of interest to people on this list.
>
> Disclaimer: I have no connection to any of this.  I just browse proxibid.com
> once in a while.
>
> The overall link:
>
>   
> https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Michael-F-Dilliard-Auction-amp-Realty-Company-LLC/5700/AuctionsByCompany.asp?ahid=5700&tl=0#13///endingsoonest//all/5700/0/1/
>
> The particular lots:
>
>   ACORN computer programs
> https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/ACORN-computer-programs/38893071/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893071&origin=1
>   Vintage computer lot (Apple)   
> https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-computer-lot-APPLE-external-disk-drive-user-manuals-more/38893094/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893094&origin=1
>   APPLE Graphics Tablet + Acorn  
> https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-APPLE-Graphics-Tablet-British-BBC-Microcomputer-System/38893095/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893095&origin=1
>   Vintage APPLE IIe  
> https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Vintage-APPLE-IIe-computer-keyboard-monitor-external-drive/38893096/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893096&origin=1
>   IBM PC Jr computer lot 
> https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/IBM-PC-Jr-computer-lot/38893111/LotDetail.asp?lid=38893111&origin=1
>
> (editor's note for the last item: "ew.")
>
> mcl

Reposted on FB -- with credit but no email. Hope that's OK.

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QEMM

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

The old extended/expanded memory manager for DOS. Anyone remember?

I'm playing with bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7 (and DR-DOS 7 to follow).

I have it working and booting now, but I'd like to disable QEMM's
memory check on startup. I'm sure there was a switch, but I can't
remember it. Even with just -- "just" -- 4GB of RAM it takes quite a
while.

If anyone knows of a place where there's a summary of QEMM's
command-line switches, that'd be great. I have found some manuals but
nothing helpful.

I'm using QEMM 9, the last version, for Win9x.

Any suggestions?

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Re: QEMM

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 26 October 2017 at 21:29,   wrote:
>
> I remember it! It was useful.
>
> Here is the manual:
> https://www.jumpjet.info/Application-Software/DOS/QEMM/Manual.pdf

Oh, excellent! Thank you!

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Re: PDP8.org

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 28 October 2017 at 13:04, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Why?
> It works from here (Oslo, Norway) now.

Not from Prague...

«
This site can’t be reached

pdp8.org’s server DNS address could not be found.

Did you mean http://www.pdp8.net/?
Search Google for pdp 8 org

ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED
»

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Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 28 October 2017 at 12:03, tom sparks via cctalk
 wrote:
> I am looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA, so I can write idea/notes when I
> am away from my computer
>
> the [Psion 3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_3) and [Psion
> 5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) look like good options,
> but i read about the hinge/screen issues
>
> I am leaning more towards the Psion 5 because of the easy of getting
> accessories,
> but it has more things to break
>
> but I am wounding about other options?

"Wondering"? :-)

There were a few classics. IME the Psion 5/5mx keyboard was the best
by a country mile, but they're old and fragile now.

HP 200LX.

http://ktgee.net/post/100483254827/hp-200lx-review-an-ibm-pc-xt-in-your-pocket

HP Jornada 720 or 728, possibly the ultimate ARM PocketPC devices.

http://ktgee.net/post/99630645047/hp-jornada-720-review-hps-last-palmtop

NTT Docomo Sigmarion 3:

http://www.hpcfactor.com/reviews/hardware/ntt-do-co-mo/sigmarion-3/

Late-model NEC MobilePro, e.g. 900C:

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=MobilePro&item_type=topic

The GDP Pocket is a sort of modern equivalent and is actually on sale now:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gpd-pocket-7-0-umpc-laptop-ubuntu-or-win-10-os-laptop--2#/

The Gemini PDA looks more Psion-like -- the GDP is really just a very
small miniaturised laptop -- but it's not ready yet.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-keyboard-mobile-device-phone#/


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Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 29 October 2017 at 16:53, Lawrence Woodman via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I was also thinking of something a little bit bigger, such as the M100.  The
> Cambridge Z88 is an excellent machine and they are still being sold new in
> box.
>
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88

A fair point. I have one. I must send it off to Rakewell and get it
upgraded and maxed out. I think they can take 512 kB of RAM now, and
there are Flash media with a meg on.

http://www.rakewell.com/z88/z88.shtml

The OS, OZ, is still in development, remarkably.

https://sourceforge.net/p/z88/news/2016/12/cambridge-z88-rom-v47-released/

The big snag is still that it's relatively hard to get files /off/ the
things and into a modern computer.

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Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 30 October 2017 at 00:57, tom sparks via cctalk
 wrote:

>
> cant find the Gateway HandBook on ebay :(
> if wanted the GPD Pocket i could buy these
>  or  GDP Win
> Toshiba Libretto size issues

Your quoting is broken. It took 3 goes to type this because I couldn't
find your actual reply.

The Pandora is a gaming toy. It's got a terrible keyboard.

The GDP is one device, it just comes with either Windows or Ubuntu
installed. I think even the specs are the same.

The difference between modern things and the Psion is of course
battery life. A Psion 5/5mx ran for months on a pair of AAs. A
mini-laptop runs for a few hours.

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Re: BBS software was Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 31 October 2017 at 23:02, tom sparks via cctalk
 wrote:
> I am looking for BBS software to run on my linux computer that i can use to
> down/up-load stuff for my psion 5mx

The 5MX can talk IRDA, you know, which might be easier but is
line-of-sight only.

This may be informative:

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/pdf/Psion-HOWTO.pdf

Also see:

http://palmtop.cosi.com.pl/2012/12/28/psion-linux-pc-and-a-cable/

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Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 3 November 2017 at 01:03, Evan Koblentz via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> BS.
>
> I've been a professional full-time journalist for 20 years. No one in their
> right mind is using anything older than a last-gen laptop. Maybe two
> generations if they're poor like me.

Not full-time, but still a paid scribbler for everything from PC Mag to MacUser.

In this century, I have written columns on a Mac Classic II (in the
21st century) and on an early-1990s 386sx laptop under WordPerfect
5.1. I have toted a Thinkpad Butterfly internationally, repeatedly. I
am currently building a bootable Live USB with PC-DOS 7.1 and MS Word
6 for DOS as a distraction-free writing tool.

Yeah, some people totally do. Weirdos, probably, but yes.

And I am typing this on an IBM Model M (made 1994-05-06) which is
attached to my Core i5 Thinkpad X220, bought used in January for £150,
which is my newest and most powerful laptop. In fact probably my
newest computer of any kind.

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Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 3 November 2017 at 22:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:

> Exactly!
>
> But, they sometimes try to convince us that it means "Personal Computer
> Memory Card Instustry Association", which is far less credible

OK, next, for 2 points. What does TWAIN stand for? No conferring or
consulting research materials.

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Re: looking at buying a pocket PC / PDA

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 4 November 2017 at 00:47, Adrian Graham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> OK I’ll bite. Toolkit Without An Indicated Name.
>
> (my early noughties scanners proclaimed this proudly)

Close, but not quite. 3/5. :-D

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Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 16 November 2017 at 21:30, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>  ³Floptical² disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted
> capacity

Just FYI, your quote marks render on Linux as superscript 2s.

Using an Apple device? You might want to turn off smart quotes...

https://www.jordanmerrick.com/posts/ios-11-smart-punctuation/

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn-off-ios-11-smart-punctuation-to-avoid-data-entry-problems

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DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

I hope this is vintage enough.

I've been playing around some more with my projects to create VMs /
bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7.1 and DR-DOS.

Right now I'm focusing on DR-DOS 7.1 and the DR OpenDOS Enhancement
Project, because that's FOSS and AFAICS it can be redistributed, which
I can't with DR-DOS 7.02/7.03/7.04/7.05 or DR-DOS 8/8.1, which were
commercially licensed.

I found a download of the last build released:

https://archiveos.org/drdos/

First, it's the wrong size. VirtualBox can't mount it. VMware can.

I truncated it to exactly 2880 sectors using the advice from ``jleg094'' here:

https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39141

VBox mounts that. But it won't boot, nor in VMware  -- it just
displays 2 dots and freezes.

Embarrassingly late in the troubleshooting process, I've found why.

I didn't think to check what was on the image! Foolish of me.

I mounted it on a pre-booted VM and looked, and it's blank! There's
nothing in the image at all.

So, I mounted the empty image file as a loop device, copied the boot
files in there and then the rest of the files in the distro archive.

And lo, it works! It boots my VM just fine, and it's now running 7.01-08.

All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable,
and I'm in business.

The DR-DOS 7 SYS command won't do it, as the files aren't named
IBMBIOS.COM and IBMSYS.COM -- they're DRBIO.SYS and DRSYS.SYS.

I copied them to the expected names. SYS completes but the disk won't boot.

Next step will be to try with Norton Disk Doctor.

Anyway, if anyone wants a bootable diskette image with DR-DOS 7.01-08,
complete with FAT32 support -- apparently it can even boot from it --
let me know.

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

Might be more helpful to include downloads!

I'm still working on VMs, but I know have bootable diskette images of
both. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time either has
been made available.

DR-DOS 7.08 is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0

You'll need the rest of DR-DOS 7.01 to install a complete OS but
that's widely available.

A bootable PC DOS 7.1 diskette image is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsujtvp0gs44qcx/PCDOS71.vfd?dl=0

This is a VirtualBox disk image, containing the PC-DOS 7.1 files from
the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit, as made available by IBM and
described here:

http://toogam.com/software/archive/opsys/dos/ibmpcdos/getpcd71.htm

If you get that first, AIUI that gives you a licence to a personal-use
copy. I have not modified these files in any way except to combine the
separately-downloadable files and the boot disk image, and to remove
any non-PC DOS files from the disk image.

Again, the rest of the OS must be taken from a copy of PC DOS 7.01.
That too is widely available.

Feedback welcomed.

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

It is *not* my day. I don't know how a copy-and-paste of some plain
text magically acquired attachments; that was not intentional. My
apologies.

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 17 November 2017 at 16:12, william degnan  wrote:
> I have a few original Dr dos disks.  Versions 5, 6, 7.  Would these help if
> I am imaged and uploaded to my site?

What I'd suggest is checking what's there first. :-)

I have DR-DOS 6, from VetusWare. There's a copy on WinWorld but it's
some homemade disks, lacking an installer, IIRC.

I have physical media from the early 1990s somewhere!

I have DR-DOS 7.01/02/03/04/05/8.0/8.1 mostly from WinWorld .

I own an original open source release of 7.01, including sources,
direct from Caldera, on CD. This is from before they changed their
mind and back-pedalled.

I have a full boxed copy of PC DOS 7. It was distributed with
Microsoft Virtual PC, which itself is a free download now. So the VM
is out there and freely available.

My VM is built from the free download version, with ViewMax taken from
the download of DR DOS 6.

I have a working VM of PC DOS 7.1 but I'm still working on that. I
don't currently have a bootable USB of it -- making new bootable
volumes is non-trivial. It's not as simple as SYS or FORMAT /S, alas.
Neither works. I don't think it was meant to, TBH. Ditto the later OEM
releases of DR DOS 7.04/05 -- these were only on Disk Manager and
PartitionMagic boot disks, AFAIK. The whole OS was not updated.

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 17 November 2017 at 16:44, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
>
> Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've got a
> machine that I can build the original sources on.

Thanks!

For now, I'm trying to avoid building anything. I believe that the
build process is horribly complex -- I can find the link to a
description of the horrors somewhere. Something like 9 different
compilers are apparently used.

So I hope not to need that, but appreciate the offer!

What I am planning to do is combine the released boot files for PC-DOS
7.1 and DR-DOS 7.01-8, both with FAT32 and LBA support, with the rest
of the released OSes of both, to make something as complete as
possible.

My plan is then to add on top of that a graphical shell -- DOSSHELL
for PC DOS, ViewMax for DR DOS.

And then add some useful shareware/freeware utilities and apps, to
make a complete useful working environment, for example able to boot
off a USB stick for a distraction-free, non-Internet-capable, writing
tool. There seems to be considerable interest in such things these
days, and of course, the problem with apps that provide
distraction-free clean-screen writing/editing environments is that you
can always just switch apps to something else.

I have DESQview and DESQview/X running in a VM, but not on bare metal.
QEMM seems to have problems on 21st century PC hardware, which is
perhaps unsurprising.

On one of my own Lenovo notebooks, I have a bootable partition with PC
DOS 7.01, MS Word 6, WordPerfect 6.2, Norton Utilities and some other
tools. With power management, but not networking or anything. This
works for me, but they can't be distributed; they're licensed tools.

MS Word 5.5 is a free download, though. I was planning to add tools
such as PC Write, PC Outline, As-Easy-As, WordPerfect Editor, a Norton
Commander clone -- stuff that _is_ distributable.

I also need to add a current DOS antivirus, unfortunately. I think
there still are some.

The theory is to produce something functionally rich that runs in a VM
-- because then I know the hardware environment and can configure
things for it. And something much less functionally-rich that can boot
and run off a USB stick on almost any hardware.

DR-DOS should be re-distributable. PC DOS, I fear not, at least not
fully legitimately. But my download diskette image contains nothing
that IBM itself currently does not offer for free unrestricted
download. I'm hoping that the company will tolerate that, at least.

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 17 November 2017 at 19:02, Tomasz Rola  wrote:
>
> Please excuse me if my remark is unnecessary, but if I read you right,
> you have:
>
> 1. Downloaded "empty" disk image - which apparently boots enough to
> display two dots

No.

The original DR-DOS Enhancement Project website --
http://www.drdosprojects.de/ -- is no longer there.

The download I found for 7.01-8 was here:

https://archiveos.org/drdos/

This download includes what it claims is a bootable diskette. It is
not a bootable diskette. It is an empty diskette image.

What I've done is make it bootable.

> 2. Copied system (DOS) files on it (say, from backup)

No, from within the same download archive.

> 3. You have not erased the boot-sector-from-the-i-net? So it is there
> and still boots the (now fully functional) DOS?

Yes.

> If so, perhaps you should start over from totally new, empty image?

I can do, but I need some more tools in my VM first. Unfortunately my
Mac with the more complete disk image is currently out of action.

> Not copy from your currently working image, but from your backup. Just
> in case.

I can try it.

> Or at least try to disassemble the boot sector to see what it
> is doing (I have no idea how, but somehow it must be possible).


> "Things" can escape from VMs. I have plenty of Xen warnings and bug
> descriptions in my old mailboxes, chances are there will be more.

It's possible. I'm not working on Windows systems, so I don't have
virus scanners in place.

>> All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable,
>> and I'm in business.
>
> Boot some other OS, (I am partial to GRML Linux, well packed with
> rescue stuff and more - https://grml.org/ ); + fdisk, mark bootable?

Er, yes. Thanks. I _do_ know about managing DOS hard disks, thanks. :-)

The problem is that the DR-DOS 7.01 tools cannot use the 7.01-8 files
to make a bootable volume in the normal ways (wither ``FORMAT /S'' or
format then ''SYS [drive letter]:''.

So I need to try other things, which are not on the current system.

>> The DR-DOS 7 SYS command won't do it, as the files aren't named
>> IBMBIOS.COM and IBMSYS.COM -- they're DRBIO.SYS and DRSYS.SYS.
>>
>> I copied them to the expected names. SYS completes but the disk won't boot.
>
> Perhaps you should try again, copying one file each time, in the right
> sequence (I do not recall, which one, but only two files, similarly to
> how sys would do it). I did such "manual sys" once on MSDOS 6 (5???)
> floppy and it worked (booted).

It can sometimes work but it's not guaranteed.

I have tried all the obvious methods. Now I am going to need 3rd party tools.

The same problems are preventing me from making a PC DOS 7.1 hard disk
image bootable: the older DOS commands won't use the newer "kernel"
files.

> Watcom C?
> DJGPP?

Er, no. I am not compiling anything here. I am merely trying to make
some already-available parts into a working system.

> I keep promising myself to do such stuff one day, only with FreeDOS,
> plus some utils to refresh my long forgotten i386 assembler. So, it is
> probably FASM nowadays. And some editor which is at least minimally
> usable... Or some really cheap alternative, with the same under
> DOSBOX.

FreeDOS is fine if you like it. For me, it is just a little too unlike
the "real thing" for comfort. And as I'm interested in playing with
some fairly extreme DOS stuff -- multitaskers (DESQview, etc.) and so
on -- I want the highest level of compatibility I can achieve.

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 20 November 2017 at 18:57, jim stephens via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> The archive.org snapshots may have had the blank images, but they also seem
> to have grabbed the archived downloads as well.
>
> This is an arbitrary link to the 3/26/2016 snapshot.  There are quite a few
> others, and I didn't try anything yet to see if the data is good or not.
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20160326184121/http://www.drdosprojects.de/index.cgi/download.htm

Aha! Excellent!

Since I found the latest version, I stopped looking. That was silly of
me. That's very helpful -- thanks, Jim!

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 November 2017 at 19:16, Tomasz Rola  wrote:
>
> As of "things" mentioned above, my current understanding is, those may
> be both active code (virri, worrmms etc), as well as Darth Vader's
> hand reaching out from the inside of VM and manipulating bits of
> memory on hosting machine. Chances are, I worry too much about this,
> but I suppose Pentium does not make a good platform for running VMs,
> only a cheap one (although it used to look like a decent one, but
> today it is only cheap).

A file-based virus could escape _if_ the VM had access to the host
filesystem. But mine don't, partly because it's moderately hard,
partly because it takes a _ton_ of RAM in DOS terms.

I should devote more effort to it but it's not massively useful to me
so I've not.

But it can't propagate if the host OS can't run DOS binaries.

> My current understanding is, emulators without JIT should be more
> decent. They sometimes enable one to have a peek into running
> "machine", which might be nice thing to have, too. And speedwise, they
> should be much closer to the original ;-P

I am trying to avoid emulators. This is the original native OS of x86
PC-compatible hardware. I want it to run on the metal.

> Well, owing to lack of time, I am so far from creating anything like
> "my own" that any actual problem with more interesting stuff just does
> not come into my mind (and I have close to zero knowledge about
> Desqview, which I regret because it looks great on those pictures out
> there). Most probably I will go with some frankensteinish solution
> involving Dosemu or Dosbox,

DOSbox is an emulator, so I've not looked at it. Ditto Bochs.

DOSemu works but it's not very stable. It's easy to crash it and lose
your session.

I don't think there's much chance of getting DESQview or anything
ambitious like that running on it.

> whichever could run assembler without a
> flop,

I don't understand that bit.

> Emacs on native side for editing,

Euw. ;-)

> thus hybrid
> multitasking.

Well, yes, with host-based multitasking, you don't need in-VM multitasking.

But on the metal, it could potentially be useful. Mostly, though, it's
a toy and a tech demo.

> FreeDOS, for me, is the advanced way to do it, but as
> the developers keep improving it (prepackaged utils and stuff), so I
> might actually go for it - laziness pays.

As you prefer. It has a _very_ slow release cycle, though.

> But the main reason for me
> to go there would be to play with assembler, rather than with other
> software.

DOS assembler can be run on almost anything. MS-DOS, PC DOS, DR-DOS,
FreeDOS, whatever.

> There are also MenuetOS and KolibriOS, which look like nice "couldbe"
> multiplexers for Dosbox, but I am not sure (would have to find time to
> research) if there is any possibility to run DOS programs under their
> control (and I could not find explicit answer in few minutes).

They're not DOS-compatible, AFAIK.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **



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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 22 November 2017 at 11:25, Peter Corlett via cctalk
 wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 08:15:00PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> [...]
>> A file-based virus could escape _if_ the VM had access to the host
>> filesystem. But mine don't, partly because it's moderately hard, partly
>> because it takes a _ton_ of RAM in DOS terms.
>
> Not really: QEMU can be configured to add a Virtio device, which exposes a 
> host
> filesystem via 9P (the Plan 9 filesystem protocol). A DOS device driver for
> that would be of comparable complexity to a CD-ROM driver.

Which itself takes a ton of RAM, in MS-DOS terms.

So far, trying VMware Player and VirtualBox, you only seem to get
about 48 kB of so of usable UMBs, if you want a page frame as well.

CD support takes, well, about that. Circa 35 kB or so.

Network support is about 100 kB of RAM -- a hell of a lot for DOS.
Back then, the fact that the Netware client could run partially in XMS
or EMS was a big competitive advantage. The MS client was lardy, and
that was with efficient little protocols like NetBEUI. Add something a
bit chunkier like IPX/SPX or DECnet, and it became basically
impossible to keep the whole thing from eating a significant chunk of
conventional memory too.

TCP/IP basically postdates the MS-DOS era, in PC terms, and it's
Bloaty McBloatface. Couple that with needing SMB/CIFS support, and you
can be looking at something horrendous like 150 kB of RAM.

And you want 9p?!

I mean, be my guest, go implement it, but to talk to VBox or VMware,
you need CIFS.

I've tried QEMU and KVM for work, just before I was off sick.

My reaction is roughly that of Ford Prefect to Vogon poetry.

It might be OK if you want a server hypervisor, which I don't,
personally. But then, earlier this year, my reaction to modern server
VMware was broadly similar. Horrified incredulity and appalled
revulsion.

Now I have it working, I concede, it actually _works_ quite well. I
can run a bunch of VMs with a total of about 18-20GB of allocated RAM,
concurrently, on a host machine with 12GB of RAM, and it _works_, and
amazingly it's quick.

(Of course this is a play/text box, and they're all unloaded.)

But setup... *Screams and writhes*

KVM? Well, it's every big as unpleasant or more so, but it's agonizing
in a Unixy way, which is at least more familiar, so through the
suffering and the tears, I could just about see enough to get it
working.

But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could
think this was an appealing virtualisation solution.

Did I mention my more or less complete and utter loathing for C21 computing?

Why do you think I'm playing with MS-DOS again after 20y?

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Re: Editor [was: Re: DR-DOS]

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 23 November 2017 at 21:01, Tomasz Rola  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 06:53:18PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> [...]
>> But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could
>> think this was an appealing virtualisation solution.
>
> Oh my, I know you are not offensive and I think flame over editors is
> really stupid thing to do, but whenever I read I could do something
> better, yet without hint how to change for the better, it is an itch
> to scratch for me. So, with half of my tongue in a cheek, which
> editors should I choose from - sed, ed, cat, joe, dd?

I am wondering if I can cut-n-paste my response from somewhere but the
last time I had this argument, it was at work, on work systems, and I
shouldn't do that.

Some of it is here:

http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/32740.html

And a sequel here which answers your direct question:

http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/42908.html

Currently, I use Tilde.

Why?

Basically, when I started out, I learned the Sinclair ZX series ROM
editor, then the improved one in Beta BASIC, then the full-screen one
on the Spectrum 128. I even bought the numeric keypad, which is
super-rare. I did a lot of word-processing of essays on it, in The
Last Word, an obscure word processor app.

Then I went to university and learned some VMS and Fortran. I probably
used VMS EDT.

Then I got an Amstrad PCW and learned CP/M and some of the horrible
old CP/M editors, the passable RPED and LocoScript.

Then I started working, and learned Edlin, then the DR-DOS 5 editor,
then the slightly better MS-DOS 5 EDIT.

I also learned the Novell Netware editor, and Xenix vi.

I worked with and supported WordStar, NewWord, WordStar Express
(totally different!), WordStar 2000 (different again), WordPerfect,
MultiMate, DisplayWrite, MS Word 3 and 4 for DOS, Samna Executive and
others.

All had totally different UIs. All were to some degree horrid. My
least-disliked was MS Word for DOS.

MS Word 5 switched the weird old MS UI for a CUA one of text-based
menus. I learned that and liked it.

I also worked on Macs and knew WriteNow, MacWrite, MS Word for Mac,
TeachText, SimpleText, and others. Some a bit weird but all much
better than on DOS!

Then came Windows and NOTEPAD.EXE.

Basically, after Windows, all editors were CUA. Menu bar at the top,
Ctrl-O to open, Ctrl-P to print, Ctrl-S to save. Original weird CUA
cut/copy/paste was replaced with Mac-style Ctrl-X/C/V.

That's how _all_ editors work now -- including Kate, GEdit, Leafpad,
Geany, basically every Linux desktop's editor.

Except at the shell prompt, where horrid arcane old stuff from the
1970s lives on like a pack of zombies. All are totally weird and
nonstandard except for a third-rate knock-off of WordStar, which
itself was weird and nonstandard, because there were no standards back
then.

I refuse to even try to use any of them.

I want a CUA editor. Standard menu bar, all the standard keystrokes.
Standard terminology -- files/windows/panes/cut/copy/paste/clipboard
etc. I will not use anything that involves "yanking" or "buffers" or
command modes or any of that '70s garbage.

Get modern or get out.

The point here being that I learned *dozens* of editor UIs in my teens
and early 20s. They were all horrid to some degree. The Mac banished
them all, Windows nailed the coffin shut.

MS-DOS conformed. It's _long_ past time Unix did too.

> Requirement: __has_to__ work on a terminal without loss of
> functionality (even though 99% of my editing happens in X, and I can
> live with "some" loss), no Javascript inside (mostly, because I am not
> willing to learn this anytime soon).

Tilde.

> Right now, the best choice for me is emacs - lots of configurability,
> I can take Elisp to another emacs and hopefully it will work there,
> too.

I have tried. Repeatedly. The crazy horrid old UI and crazy horrid
terminology in the manual and tutorial put me off. I can't get past
it.

I don't write code. I want no syntax highlighting, no code-completion,
none of that, because it gets in my way.

I write English and I want a tool for that, with the standard UI and
keystrokes. Any additional wonderful editing power is nice but
entirely secondary. I don't need it. I don't really want it.

But with the big 2 -- vi and emacs -- I have to get past foul fetid
stinking rotten '70s UIs -- and the only enticement, the only reason,
is vast editing power I don't actually need.

> Of course I will gladly learn about other choices. Seriously. What
> others are using?

I think my choices will offer nothing to you! :-(

>> Did I mention my more or less complete and utter loathing for C21 computing?
>
> I guess a lot of people do, too.

Yes. But not enough. :-)

>> Why do you think I'm playing with MS-DOS again after 20y?
>
> I can see your loathing is bigger tha

Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 23 November 2017 at 21:28, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> This must be a uSloth TCP/IP you are speaking of. There's the one from FTP
> software which was based on the one done at MIT which was freeware. That one
> was definitely DOS-era - it ran on DOS 1 and DOS 2. I think I have the MIT
> version somewhere if you have a use for it.

Well, yes, it is the MS one, because really it needs to talk over a
modern PCI NIC -- or emulation thereof -- to a host hypervisor
pretending to be an SMB server. It needs to talk to the MS networking
client, as that is the single most important use case. DOS is not must
use for accessing the internet today! I don't need finger or ftp or
telnet, I need a client that can authenticate and connect to a Samba
share, and basically nothing else.

> > But only someone who thinks that Emacs or Vi are usable editors could
> > think this was an appealing virtualisation solution.
>
> Epsilon! Even on Windows 95, it was a not-so-humungous 261KB. If Lugaru
> can't cough up a DOS version, I'm pretty sure I still have my DOS Epsilon
> distro disks somewhere. Of course, I would have to get a 5" floppy drive
> working... :-)

Heh. :-)

I had to Google it -- never heard of it before. I am not an Emacs fan,
partly because of its horrendous UI and keystrokes, and I don't code,
least of all in C, so its feature list is not one calculated to appeal
to me, I'm afraid.


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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 23 November 2017 at 21:31, Christian Groessler via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> When your are talking about editors and DOS, the only answer is BRIEF!

Now that I _have_ heard of, yes. Never used it, though. Never really
was a programmer. The tiny bit of coding I did on the PC was in the
built-in editor of QuickBASIC 3 and later QB4.

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Re: Nova 50 year celebration...

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 2 December 2017 at 02:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Did you invite Ed de Castro?  He's still around.

What about Tracy Kidder? :-)

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Re: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 2 December 2017 at 14:20, em gee via cctalk  wrote:
> Is anyone perhaps interested in any of the following?
>
> It's essentially the remainder of some of my earlier offerings.
> I took the time to provide some details (that previously may
> have been missing)
>
> I intend to clear out the majority of it by mid-December
> (around the 15th), after that it will likely be hauled off
> to the recycler.

> - Logitech PS/2 trackball, barely used

Potentially.

>  Apple Macintosh serial & ADB adapters

> - Griffin iMate ADB to USB adapters, 2 available, one
>   includes the original packaging

Yes please!

> - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI cables,
>   several available

Argh, there is one kind I need badly, but they are in another city to
me right now. :-(

>  PCs and components
> - IBM-branded DDR2 RAM R-DIMMs (as kits), I believe 8GB
>   in total (I need to check), removed from a working IBM
>   x346 server at the time

Hmm. Would these work in an ordinary DDR2 machine?

> Everything is located in the Netherlands.

I'm in Czechia. Not _so_ far. May I circulate this list and your email
elsewhere, e.g. the FB Vintage Computer Club group? If you'd rather I
used a different email, what?

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Re: Nova 50 year celebration...

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 2 December 2017 at 17:58, Bruce Ray via cctalk  wrote:
> Yup (again) - a personal invitation has been sent to Mr. Kidder.
>
> Note that his book was about the MV, 10 years and 2 DG computer generations
> after the Nova.

Aha, fair enough. My apologies -- I can only blame brain-fade. I
thought it was the Nova.

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NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

https://twitter.com/tapbot_paul/status/937465839888093184/photo/1

I don't know if anyone is in the area to rescue this...

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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 17 November 2017 at 14:30, Liam Proven  wrote:
> I hope this is vintage enough.
>
> I've been playing around some more with my projects to create VMs /
> bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7.1 and DR-DOS.

Status update:

I now have a working VirtualBox VM with DR-DOS 7.01-06, the last
stable version from the DR-DOS Enhancement Project, which includes
FAT32 support.

It's a bootable hard disk image, with the DR-DOS multitasker and
ViewMax enabled: in other words, a multitasking FAT32-capable FOSS
DOS, complete with a GUI.

I'm currently working on turning it into a bootable USB key as well,
but there do seem to be some problems with that. I've managed it once,
with PC DOS 7.0, but not again, and I'm not sure what I'm doing
differently. Anyway, that's a separate consideration for now.


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Re: NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 6 December 2017 at 00:28, Jules Richardson via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Also on one of the Facebook groups. I expect the owner is completely
> drowning in "give me your cool stuff!" messages by now and about ready to
> pitch the whole lot into a river.

That'd be me, I'm afraid. I hope it worked.


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Re: DR-DOS

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

Latest updates...

I've taken the downloads for Enhanced DR-DOS 7.01-6 and 7.01-7,
trimmed the boot disk image to work with Virtualbox, added the actual
files to make the boot images bootable, and also added in the other
updated commands -- SYS.COM, XCOPY, TASKMGR, SHARE, and their README
files etc.

I've re-zipped them and put them on Dropbox.

Here are the links:

7.01-6:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fr8ugx1r7yjczu5/dr70106b.zip?dl=0

7.01-7:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tu998h4a7tufpf3/dr70107b.zip?dl=0

and the previous one, as before...

7.01-8 WIP:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0

By all means please mirror these elsewhere.

To use them, the easiest way is to get a copy of DR-DOS 7.01, e.g.

http://www.bttr-software.de/freesoft/os.htm

https://winworldpc.com/product/dr-dos/7x

Install in a VM.

Reboot.

Boot from my boot disk image, SYS the hard disk, and copy the other
files into C:\DOS or whatever you called it.

I will follow with complete VM images in time, but I'm back at work
after 7 weeks off sick, and I'm just too tired at the moment.

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Re: Picked up beige Mac G3

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 12 December 2017 at 12:29, Alexandre Souza via cctalk
 wrote:

I'd only disagree with 1 bit of this.

> - Use MacOS 9.

They run 10.2 fine and can be coaxed into 10.3 quite readily with XPostFacto.

They will take any standard ATA hard disk. Stick in one of up to 128GB
 -- they run into problems with drives bigger than that -- and
dual-boot both MacOS 9.2.2 and OS X.

(OS X must go inside the first 8GB of the drive. I think MacOS 9 doesn't care.)

OS X is _far_ more internet-capable and it can read and write almost
any old CD or DVD-ROM and happily read and write USB keys (if you
stick a cheap commodity USB2 or USB2+Firewire PCI card in there).

They use PC100 SD-RAM too, so 192MB - 384MB RAM is easy -- almost any
old 64MB or 128MB DIMMs will work.

With certain very special DIMMs you can have 3 x 256MB for 768MB RAM,
but they are hard to find.

Although they make a very fast Classic MacOS box and a fairly slow OS
X one, I found it very worthwhile to have OS X on there, even if just
for downloading all the various tools and things you need to get
Classic MacOS running nicely.

http://lowendmac.com/1997/beige-power-mac-g3-1997/

http://lowendmac.com/1998/beige-power-mac-g3-1998/


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Re: FFA: Amstrad Joyce (USA)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 1 January 2018 at 20:55, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> There probably aren't that many 120V versions of the Amstrad Joyce Word
> processor, but I've got one here.   I replaced the 3" CF floppy drive
> with a 720K 3.5" drive and modified some boot disks.
>
> The system now supports 3.5" double-sided media and is fully populated
> with 512K of DRAM and runs CP/M 3.0.
>
> Unit with keyboard only, free to good home; sorry but I don't have the
> printer.
>
> I need to get this thing out of the way; if it goes unclaimed by January
> 15, off it goes to NextStep recycling.

Not a request -- I'm in continental Europe and have 2 PCWs anyway, a
9512 & a 9512+. But I'm curious -- which model? The basic 8256?


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Re: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 4 January 2018 at 08:21, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I am still hoping someone will know if I can try swapping the ULA with a
> newer one from a later model I have. I may also look at getting a NebULA as
> they are not expensive.

Possibly helpful...

https://spectrumforeveryone.com/technical/zx-spectrum-ula-types/

As well as NebULA, there's also SLAM:

https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/details/slam,-zx-128-ula-replacement-board-21779



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SGI Onyx 2 going begging (in South Africa, AFAICT)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

This should be public, so visible even if you don't have a FB login.

https://www.facebook.com/jserwach/posts/1804323786269276

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Re: Need keyboard for IBM 528x

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 6 January 2018 at 16:17, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech
 wrote:

> (it came with an 8² disk

JFYI: your email client is sending a superscript 2 character instead
of double quotes.

This is often due to Apple OSes configured to use smart quotes. You
might wish to turn that off.

E.g.

https://www.jordanmerrick.com/posts/ios-11-smart-punctuation


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Re: DL10 documentation

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 10 January 2018 at 01:56, Phil Budne via cctalk
 wrote:

>
> DECnet Phase V encompassed ISO, and might have included IS-IS,
> which Rhea Perlman had a hand in (while at DEC?).

I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel
career as an engineer?

Some Googling revealed that you have your R Perlmans muddled. It's
Radia Perlman, designer of Spanning Tree.


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Re: DL10 documentation

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 11 January 2018 at 19:03, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
 wrote:
> > From: Liam Proven
>
> > I had a major WTF moment at that. The actress had a prior or parallel
> > career as an engineer?
>
> Why not? Hedy Lamarr:
>
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr
>
> invented spread spectrum communications! :-)

True!

I wasn't saying it was impossible or anything, merely that I thought I
might have heard about that, as I had heard about Ms Lamarr.

British TV comedians Graeme Garden and Harry Hill were both medical
doctors before their media careers, for instance. It does happen.

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Re: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 16 January 2018 at 09:19, Martin Meiner via cctech
 wrote:
>
> It has always been my aim to be able toconnect a modem or an acoustic coupler 
> directly to one of my ASCII terminals,dial a number and be connected…with 
> Google!
>
> Something like Google-interface but convertedto match ASCII terminals (only 
> text, very simple graphics).

Your question is nonsensical. An internet connection is an Internet
connection. What you run over it is up to you.

Whereas I doubt a '70s mini will have a text-mode browser such as
Lynx, Links or W3M, many will have TCP/IP. Just telnet to a Linux box
and run one of those, or something akin.

>From your question, I suspect you don't understand how TCP/IP and the
WWW work. You need to learn that first before you can do this. It's
not very hard or super-complex.

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Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts"

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 24 January 2018 at 16:05, Toby Thain via cctalk
 wrote:

> Well, if it's universally held to be desirable then there's a chance of
> seeing one on a secondary market. But it probably therefore also be
> overpriced.

There's that. The flipside is that there is considerable effort going
into devising keyboard interfaces for retro keyboards to modern
computers, and in principle, that could be reversed.

> Bloody wankers. Keyboard is the least interesting part of a system, I
> don't understand the fetishisation.

Hmmm. I am a bit torn here.

I don't want to defend them, but I am a sort of accidental keyboard
collector myself. I hang out in some of the communities.

The first PC I ever used was an actual PC, an IBM PC-XT, at
university. It lived in a corner of a side room of the computer
centre, standalone, unloved. All the "serious" "hackers" used DEC VT
terminals on the uni VAXcluster.

I played with it because it had the Infocom Hitchhikers' Guide game on
it. And the PC knowledge  gained thereby got me my 1st job and is why
I am sitting here in Nuremberg not writing documentation at this
precise moment today.

My 1st ever job was an IBM dealer, and I got used to the IBM
keyboards. I also worked on classic Macs and a tiny bit of IBM RS6000.

So the 2nd job, an Amstrad dealer, came as a shock. Nasty keyboards.
And of course they got much worse.

So for 25y or so, I've been slowly accumulating a small stockpile of
IBM Model Ms and Apple Extended 1 & 2 keyboards. I now have enough for
life.

Which means I can talk to the keyboard geeks.

I don't pay for them -- mine are all discards and the computers were
already gone. I sold most of my classic Macs when I left the UK and
all went with a keyboard, usually an AppleDesign one.

I sold a couple of isolated classic Apple keyboards but they didn't
make much so now I don't bother -- I keep 'em and use 'em instead.

But modern keyboards are almost universally horrid. They feel much the
same as each other, nasty and spongy.

So, you have 2 choices:

[1] Buy an expensive modern mechanical keyboard
[2] Buy an old vintage mechanical keyboard

Either way leads down a rabbit hole into a whole world.

But the vintage ones... well, people buy something cheap, like it, get
bored, get something else, find it is markedly different, buy another,
find it's different _again_ and that's it, they're hooked. I'm fairly
immune to this, as I'm old and have strong preferences already --
firstly, IBM Model Ms or early Apple ADB mechanicals, and secondly,
not spending much money.

The older and rarer you go, the more expensive the machine was when
new. Thus the higher quality the keyboard was. Thus the better it
feels, by and large. So that leads to a vicious cycle of seeking out
older, rarer keyboards. And once you get used to weird old ones, then
they become fun, so people get into them for their own merits.

I'm aghast that this has now led to complete vintage systems being
gutted and discarded for just the keyboard. I agree with the
ivory-poacher simile.

The only thing I can see countering it would be a trend of companies
making _good_ modern mechanical boards, especially with weird layouts
and USB ports. It might satisfy those who just want something
_different_ and don't need it to be old.

But I have played with another list-member's Unicomp "Model M" and it
was nothing like as good as a real IBM. It felt cheap and nasty by
comparison, although the key action was good.

I've also tried a couple of mechanical gamers' keyboards and they
weren't great either. I fear commoditisation and mass-production means
that real vintage quality might be unattainable today without making
the results more expensive than vintage ones.


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Re: Keyboard "enthusiasts"

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 24 January 2018 at 16:32, Toby Thain  wrote:
>
> We joke that they have no qualms about Dremeling them out and sticking
> Raspberry Pis inside, making them worthless for the original systems.

I hate that. I have told at least 1 friend to think about WTF he was
doing when he proposed this.

I don't think he understood. The perils of the correlation of techie
interest and being on the autistic spectrum.


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Computer Museum in Brno, CZ

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

I was at a small technical conference last weekend (www.devconf.cz) at
the Faculty of Informatics, Brno Masaryk University.

https://www.fi.muni.cz/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaryk_University

What I didn't know is that it has its own small museum of computing.

I enjoyed it a lot. There's a good range of Sinclair kit and clones,
including various real ZX Spectrum machines (48, Plus, 128 with
vanishingly rare numeric keypad, Plus 2, Plus 2A, Plus 3, Interface 1
and Microdrives, MGT +D, Opus Discovery) and clones including Soviet
(Orel BK-08), Polish (CZ Spectrum 48) and Czechoslovakian (Didaktik
Gama, Kompakt and Kompakt M, with rare built-in 3½" floppy drive) and
a SAM Coupé. There are other Czechoslovak machines, micros and minis
and mainframe parts.

They have an HP 3000, a PDP-11/34 and multiple RL02s, with both VT-120
and VT-220) and a Soviet PDP-11 clone.

Mechanical and early electronic calculators.

And a mediaeval clock!

In the unlikely even folk are passing, it's well worth a visit. I
spent a happy couple of hours in there.

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Re: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 2 February 2018 at 22:16, Wayne S via cctech  wrote:
> Notice: Downloaded this from the link and Norton says it is a virus. 
> PUA.InstallCore

Please bottom-quote on mailing lists.

Are you running an ad-blocker? If not, you should.

I recommend UBlock Origin.

https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock

AdBlock+ works but takes a lot of RAM.

UBlock is a dodgy fork of the original program and should be avoided.

I am wondering if you are using bad/fake download sites that are
serving compromised files. I used to work in support for AVG a couple
of years ago and this was a common problem -- banner ads with bigger,
more prominent "click here to download" buttons than the _actual_
download button on otherwise-reputable sites.

I have seen this issue with several 100% legit freeware tools,
including on Google itself. I told someone to download Produkey, a
free tool that extracts product IDs and licence keys from Windows. The
person I was advising -- a moderately tech-literate personal friend of
high intelligence -- does not run an ad-blocker and was missing the
_actual_ Google result and clicking on a banner ad by mistake which
was taking him to a fake download site which contained malware and
requested payment.

CD Burner XP and ImgBurn are both legit. I used both for many years. I
no longer use Windows unless someone pays me to do so, but both were
valid tools.

The download site for CD Burner XP is here:

https://cdburnerxp.se/en/home

ImgBurn is also legit. The download site is here:

http://www.imgburn.com/

Win10 obsoletes them both by including ISO burning directly, IIRC, but
it's entirely possible that it can't handle a non-standard CD image
that doesn't contain an ISO9660 filesystem. Recently I have had
problems trying to "burn" bootable drives containing AROS and
A2/Bluebottle to USB because no burn tool recognises those OSes'
filesystems.

For writing Windows 10 itself to USB, I use Rufus, but I don't think
it supports optical media.

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Re: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 21 February 2018 at 23:50, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> After going through I've-forgotten-how-many editors (starting with TECO, then
> 'ed'), text formatting systems, operating systems, email readers, etc, etc I
> have a _very_ simple rule about switching software: is the old stuff I'm using
> utterly, irretrievably unusable? If not, ignore the new stuff. Eventually
> it'll be obsolete too. And in the meantime, I'll have saved countless cycles
> by not going through the hassle of switching to it. Life's too short.

Interesting.

I have had a comparable journey, starting in the early 1980s on home
micros. I have learned so many different editors, with all their
strengths and weaknesses, I can't remember how many to the nearest
dozen.

But at the end of the 1980s/start of the 1990s, something  changed.

CUA came along. IBM's answer to Apple's MacOS HIG.

A set of rules for how apps should look.

Quickly, lots complied. DR-DOS 5 came with a slightly clunky but CUA
full-screen text-editor.

MS-DOS 5 followed. From the horrors of edlin, we got the DOS 5 editor,
basically QBASIC in a special mode. But QBASIC was the QuickBASIC 4
IDE with an interpreter bolted in place of the compiler, and it was a
decent IDE and a decent editor.

DR-DOS 6 upped its game a bit.

Windows Notepad is basically the same and compatible. So were the
later classic MacOS editors. So are the editors in KDE, GNOME 2, Maté,
LXDE, Xfce, whatever. So are all the Mac OS X ones.

There's one look and feel for a text editor now. Menu bar at the top,
starting File, Edit, blah. Save is Ctrl+S. Open is Ctrl-O.
Cut/copy/paste -- well there the CUA ones gave in to Mac ones: Ctrl-X,
C, V.

I won't use any editor or editing app that doesn't follow that
pattern. I've happily, joyfully, with a song in my heart, forgotten
all the others.

I don't care _how_ powerful anyone's editor is. Scripting, macros,
add-ons, modules, whatever. Not interested. Strictly CUA or GTFO.

It has made life much simpler.

And in the great Vi-versus-Emacs war, it leaves both sides staring
blankly at me with nothing to offer.

Both weakly point out that their X version does most of that, but
neither does it on the console, so I'm not interested.

It rules out most of the console/shell level Unix/Linux/*nix world and
that's fine with me. Saves me a ton of decision-making.

Your app. Don't care what it does. Is it CUA compliant? No? OK, thank
you for your time, goodbye. *Ting* Next please.




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Re: Canon BX-1 (1977) Manuals

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 22 February 2018 at 22:56, Thomas B via cctech  wrote:
> Recently, I’ve started working on a Canon BX-1 machine dated 1977.

Some info in French:

http://mo5.com/musee-machines-bx1.html

Might be worth asking them...?


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Re: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 22 February 2018 at 21:57, Tomasz Rola  wrote:

> Liam, I wanted to say this few months ago already (back in Nov, the
> "Editor" thread - BTW, thanks for the links to editors wiki and other
> interesting pointers).

Glad it was appreciated.

> So, what I wanted to say is, this posture is
> going to backfire, I am afraid. The new crowd is coming, who newer had
> any chance to use anything resembling a terminal (including
> terminal-like experience as wobbly as given by MS Windows).

I used to think this myself, but of late, I've had 2 jobs with FOSS
companies (Red Hat and SUSE) and they're both full of 20-somethings
who use and love Vim & other shell-only tools. People working in
tiling or ultra-minimal window managers, with a bunch of terminals and
nothing else.

Unix isn't just an OS. It's a whole culture now, and newcomers earn
credit by embracing the tools and the old ways and demonstrate their
worthiness by their skill with (to them) ancient languages, editors
and so on.

Alas, now, it's _the_ culture. Everything else is ancient history,
mostly unknown. Today, there are 2 OSes, broadly: Windows, and its
fans see no interest in anything else; and Unix, which increasingly
means macOS and Linux.

[Aside: Greybeards are into "ancient" platforms from the 1980s like
Amiga OS, Atari TOS/GEM, Acorn RISC OS, and a few into BeOS/Haiku.

The stuff from before that is mostly forgotten about now. MS-DOS and
the most popular 8-bit home micros are now solely the domain of retro
gamers.
]

But they're still millennials, so email is a slightly clunky old tool
for notifications and account verification, stuff like that. They use
chat systems more -- IRC, and an increasing presence of things like
Slack, RocketChat, Telegram, Signal and the like. There are work-only
web-based social networks where they can interact in broadly familiar
ways, such as Yammer or Red Hat's Mojo.

So at RH, for instance, there were people who primarily used Mojo and
others who primarily used the internal mailing lists.

> They
> (crowd) too will be saying things like GTFO - for now, they just top
> post awfully long replies (perhaps because their phone/web-based MUAs
> cannot offer them easy way to cut the crap?) and refuse to see any
> wrong in it. They also happen to break threads like they were paid to
> do it and since I am subscribed to way too many lists where this
> occurs, I have already gave up manual linking of threads with mutt -
> righting wrongs of the crowd is a job for a program, not for single
> human. I only have to devise it during free time, when I have some.

Yes, true. There's a ton of received wisdom on how to use email
effectively, but it's not disseminated. This means key providers of
email tools -- notably Microsoft -- didn't incorporate these.

So now there are 2 cultures of email: the old-style, text-only, 4-line
sig, bottom-posting way, and "business style": rich formatting, top
posting, epic sigs with graphics, legal notices etc. Given a tool
focused on that, it's hard to even do the other way at all.

We allowed it to fragment and in the long term that might be its downfall.

> Given that they are soon (if not already) going to be a "dictatoring"
> majority, I am not so sure the "GTFO" is the right kind of message to
> send out. Even though I have no idea what a constructive message could
> look like.

Good question.

An idea I threw out on a panel discussion a few years ago is that we
might end up with 2 "internets".

One will be the old-fashioned one, standards-based, old-fashioned
practices and tools, wild and unregulated and chaotic, with a layer of
disconnected web-based islands on top. Part of this will extend into
the "darknet", the encrypted, tunnelled, anonymised quarter for
semi-illicit stuff.

And another layer, a corporate-run tool, with signing, verified IDs,
some degree of crypto so that its users feel they are safe, but it's
all backdoored and snooped and logged. That's the layer you'll be
forced to use if you want to do public trade, where there will be
federated reputation tracking and so on.


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Replica IBM 5150 PC motherboard

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

This turned up on Fess Bouc yesterday and it was news to me.

It's a DIY replica of an original IBM PC motherboard:

http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html

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Re: Replica IBM 5150 PC motherboard

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 9 March 2018 at 01:48,   wrote:
>
> Someone needs to make the Amiga 3000 motherboard replica.

+1

As this wonderful lady says in her interview...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDfIkXf3uzA

(81Y old Amiga-using artist.)

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Re: XT/370 microcode

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 12 March 2018 at 18:41, Paul Berger via cctalk  wrote:
> I am not at liberty to post the document.

This?

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5387781/?reload=true

Also:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224102395_System370_capability_in_a_desktop_computer

If so, it might be this:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2007/dc1c4e24b021765707191eeef5930b29a69c.pdf


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Re: AlphaServers

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 13 March 2018 at 05:25, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Anyone out there do Alphas anymore?

I never got my hands on one, although there was a time when I coveted one.

(Now as I am -- well, not homeless, but I don't have a house any more,
or indeed an apartment of my own -- I am confining my collection to
portable/pocketable and battery-powered devices.)

I believe list-member Stéphane has at least one, but I don't know if
he's got it running...

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"The Quest for a Universal Translator for Old, Obsolete Computer Files"

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

The Quest for a Universal Translator for Old, Obsolete Computer Files

To save bygone software, files, and more, researchers are working to
emulate decades-old technology in the cloud.

by Jessica Leigh Hester
March 08, 2018

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-to-open-old-computer-files



>From the sound of this, it strikes me that several of the
people/organizations that the author spoke to don't know much about
running older software that _will_ work on modern hardware...

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Re: AlphaServers

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 14 March 2018 at 11:06, Adrian Graham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I'm in the process of giving
> some of them away though because they take up too much room.

The OpenBSD project are, or were, looking for donations of high-end
VAXstations. I offered them a VAXstation 4000/60 (Red Hat offered to
sponsor shipping from London to Canada) but after some
toing-and-froing, Theo DeRaadt turned it down.

Unfortunately, I believe RH has now lost my machine. :-(

But if anyone is willing to donate a /90 or similar, he might be interested.

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Re: AlphaServers

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 14 March 2018 at 12:54, Michael-John Turner  wrote:
>
> I'm guessing the lack of interest from Theo may have been because the VAX
> port was dropped after OpenBSD 5.9[1]. Was rather sad when that happened as
> NetBSD's VAX support isn't in a great state these days.
>
> [1] https://www.openbsd.org/vax.html

Cause/effect error. I offered my 4000/60 to him when I was leaving the
country in 2014. After some weeks of consideration, during which time
I packed it up and got it delivered to Red Hat in Farnborough, he
decided he didn't want it.

I started working for Red Hat in Brno soon afterwards. Sadly, a couple
of months later, I stopped working for Red Hat.

When I asked for the machine back in 2016, they had lost it. :-(

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Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

>> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:32 PM, Guy N. via cctalk 
>> wrote:
>>
>> The new sysadmin at work is clearing out closets full of junk^H^H^H^H
>> cool old stuff accumulated by the previous sysadmin.  There's a big
>> carton full of PATA hard disks.  Most of them are in the 4.3 GB - 20 GB
>> range, a few larger, a few smaller.
>
> On 26 March 2018 at 05:29, Adrian Stoness via cctalk  
> wrote:
>
> those are the ibm server ones right?

No. PATA means parallel ATA, that is, EIDE. It covered all EIDE
versions, original 40-wire 16 MB/s and the later 80-wire 33, 66, 100,
& 133 MB/sec standards.

In theory it also embraces pre-*E* IDE, that is, IDE, the old
sub-540MB non-LBA IDE drives.

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Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 26 March 2018 at 19:34, Tomasz Rola via cctalk  wrote:
>
> I have heard good things of MHDD diagnostic/repair program in the
> context of low level format and generally checking health of spinning
> disks.

That's a new one on me.

I have occasionally used, and often recommend, DBAN -- Darik's Boot And Nuke.

https://dban.org/


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Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 28 March 2018 at 02:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
> Well outside my realm of expertise (as if I had a realm!), . . .
>
> How many drives would you need, to be able to set up a RAID, or hot
> swappable RAUD (Redundant Array of Unreliable Drives), that could give
> decent reliability with such drives?

For what little it's worth, and little relevance, I had a hardware
RAID of 6 × 80GB UltraIDE drives that ran faultlessly for several
years. Not full-time, to be fair, but surviving multiple power cycles.

In an old HP Proliant ML110 G1 -- space-heater Pentium 4 version --
with only about 2GB of RAM (because it used some kind of weird
expensive ECC RAM) and a hacked copy of Windows Server 2008.

It was a box made from free leftovers and proved to be one of my most
reliable workhorse PCs ever. Figures, really.

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Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 28 March 2018 at 01:43, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  wrote:
> Digging around on the pointer from Al to backblaze, I found this, which,
> to me is far more meaningful in terms of presentation of data:
>
> https://hackernoon.com/applying-medical-statistics-to-the-backblaze-hard-drive-stats-36227cfd5372

Remarkable and fascinating.

The charts for Seagate are especially reliable.

It came as a surprise to me. In 30y in the business, almost anyone
involved in selecting, specifying, purchasing, or maintaining hardware
inevitably has _strong_ opinions on the reliability, or lack thereof,
of certain brands of hard disk.

Personally, I've used them _all_. I've seen several-decades-old hard
disks working perfectly, I've seen brand new drives fail, I've watched
batches of them die progressively.

They can _all_ fail. I have no angels or demons -- I have seen random
sudden failures of every vendor known to humanity, and superb
longevity from every vendor too.

But if there's a general trend, it's that the bigger, the more
fragile. I have decade-old 300GB drives in routine use that are fine.
I've also had multiple failures of new multi-terabyte-class drives, to
my personal cost.

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Re: Looking for opinions...

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 29 March 2018 at 03:52, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
>
>
> If only that were 16mm or 35mm continuous rolls, instead of microfiche!
>
> In 1931, Emanuel Goldberg, then a chief engineer at Zeiss built the
> "Statistical Machine". By recording bits optically in the margins of
> microfilm, and reading them with photocells, it could find appropriate
> frames!
>
> For use in soundtrack for films, Mauer puts up to 8 parallel variable area
> optical tracks in the margin!
> 8 bit parallel!
> Goldberg was also apparently responsible for the Contax camera.
> BUT, in the days leading up to World War Two, he fled Dresden and Zeiss
> could not afford to have mention of a Jew in a high profile position, and by
> the time the war ended, they had systematically erased most clues that he
> had existed!
> http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldberg.html
>
>
> A decade later, Vannevar Bush stole the idea, and without credit, claimed it
> as his own, as the foundation for his Memex device.
> Bush did not successfully build his machine.
> Bush's Atlantic Monthly article, "As We May Think" is sometimes considered
> the foundation of modern information science.
> Bush did not understand nor accept the concepts of index nor hierarchical
> organization, so he pushed for linkage to go from one topic into another.
> Ted Nelson credits it as the inspiration for Hypertext, and Cern credits Ted
> nelson.

This is astonishing. What a tragic loss to the world.

And yet, 3 generations later, Fascist and Neo-Nazi thought is rising
again. From Brexit to "All lives matter" or "Blue lives matter", or
the marches in the US, the spectre of the Third Reich is rising again.

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Re: Speed now & then

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 29 March 2018 at 19:53, Paul Koning via cctalk  wrote:
>
> It would be fun to do a "generalized Moore's Law" chart, showing not just 
> transistor count growth (Moore's subject) but also the many other scaling 
> changes of computing: disk capacity, recording density, disk IOPS, disk 
> bandwidth, ditto those for tape, CPU MIPS, memory size, memory bandwidth, 
> network bandwidth...

This is the most telling I've seen in a long time...

https://danluu.com/input-lag/

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Re: Speed now & then (Space and time?)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 29 March 2018 at 21:35, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
>
> MP4s mean that now, not only does it take MUCH longer to create the
> document, we can now waste MUCH more of the reader's time!
> I find it very annoying that when GOOGLE'ing to find a simple answer, many
> of the first hits are YouTube.

I got a room full of very surprised looks a couple of years ago,
interviewing for a tech-writer position, when I said that I hated
online videos as instructions, finding them far too slow and
inefficient.

This concept shocked everyone in the room, AFAICT.

> Dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish has let form triumph over content!
> When will we finally have smell-o-vision?

I used to think this of media such as Snapchat, Tumblr, Pinterest,
Instagram et al.

Then I realised something -- something connected with my career change
to tech writing.

A lot of people _can't_ express themselves in text. Some don't care
and let fly with all their spelling and grammatical errors,
mostly-missing-and-the-rest-incorrect punctuation etc.

At least 1 of my cousins is like that -- I can barely follow when this
woman (who is in her mid 50s) writes to me. It's barely English, with
no punctuation, no capitals, no sentences or paragraphs, just stream
of incoherent severely-misspelled consciousness.

I don't think she realises, and she can't help it.

I suspect many, of all ages, are like her.

And I further suspect that they can't easily consume text, either.
They can't read very fluidly.

Also see:

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/11/16/2006/

... and this from someone who I generally admire. He, as many do now,
see threading as an unnecessary, distracting technical frippery.

Astounding.

But for those who _do_ care about appearances but _can't_ write well
*and know it*, Snapchat etc. are a way out. You can "express yourself"
via pictures. You can take them yourself, use filters and so on to
tart them up a bit, and still communicate with a community of friends,
with no more writing than a few tags at a minimum.

If you can't even do that, Pinterest lets you do it _with someone
else's images_.

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Re: Speed now & then (Space and time?)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 1 April 2018 at 00:26, ben via cctalk  wrote:
>
> But that is the old fly in the ointment, other software may not be avilable.

It is, you know.

> I do run windows

Why?

> and real text screen UNIX is not aviable anymore.

Sure it is.

I mean, there are even text-only distros, such as INX:

http://inx.maincontent.net/

... and ADRIANE, a spinoff of Knoppix:

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html

But you can install Debian, Ubuntu or openSUSE in text-only mode with
no GUI if you wish. All the console-mode tools you could want are
available: web browsers, email and chat clients, twitter clients,
music players, etc.

Go the whole hog and install Slackware and go back to installing from
tarballs if you wish.

I'd probably suggest openSUSE as the YaST admin tool works in text
mode, so you don't need to know your way around a hundred config files
-- YaST will do that for you.

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Re: Speed now & then (Space and time?)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 11 April 2018 at 20:21, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
>
> I totally agree.  I read faster than most people talk and I retain
> more information.  I'd much rather read 1,000 words than watch a 3
> minute video.

Strongly agreed.

> Not surprising given how many generations have now grown up watching
> TV as their major input mode.

:-(

> Yes.  People can ramble into a mobile phone and upload to YouTube but
> actually _writing_ the same process... not everyone is a writer.

Worse still, Youtube has commercialised this. The _only_ instructions
I could find anywhere for rooting my smartphone and installing a new
ROM were a Russian language Youtube video, some 30min long. I don't
speak Russian, but thankfully, he had subtitled it in English.

But people make many such vids, with bolted-on title sequences and
rambling "hi guys, welcome, thanks for watching" intros, partly
because that's all they know how to do, and partly because they hope
to get lots of people to watch it all and thus get a kickback from
Google for the revenue from the embedded ads.

99.9% won't of course, but a few get rich doing it: PewDePie etc.

And 99.9% of them are later exposed as racists, anti-semites etc. What
a shock, etc.

Wannabe "models" are doing the same on Instagram -- underweight teen
women making a good living from posting a lot of pics of themselves in
their underwear or swimwear, and so on. A few later "come out" as
suffering from anorexia etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/nov/03/instagram-star-essena-oneill-quits-2d-life-to-reveal-true-story-behind-images

Most don't, but they set horribly unrealistic standards of appearance
for young women, etc.

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Re: Speed now & then (Space and time?)

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 11 April 2018 at 23:48, ben  wrote:

> The FREE fpga development software is only under windows.

WINE works well now.

I write in Word 97 under WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu. Works a treat,
blindingly fast, and unlike any Linux tool I can find, it has a
working outliner.

VMs are almost trivially easy, too. Win10 is a free download and works
usably without registration or activation.

> WHAT HAPPEND TO * MINUX VERSION #1 *.

I don't understand the question.

> PS: I do have a better OS kicking around, Oberon but I need a extra
> screen and keyboard for it.

I have that -- well, A2 with Bluebottle -- running on the metal on my
old Thinkpad X200 (installed via a VM). Awaiting more time to learn
and experiment.

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