Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Milos Blazevic]

Ralph Angenendt wrote:
> Am 09.10.10 01:18, schrieb Milos Blazevic:
>   
>> Of course, if we get to it, I'll make sure we discuss it thoroughly on 
>> the mailing list before the changes go public.
>> 
>
> Sure, MilosBlazevic can now edit that page.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ralph
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>   
Thanks, I'll come back shortly with my suggestion for page changes.

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*Milos Blazevic*

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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Ralph Angenendt]

Am 09.10.10 01:18, schrieb Milos Blazevic:
> Of course, if we get to it, I'll make sure we discuss it thoroughly on 
> the mailing list before the changes go public.

Sure, MilosBlazevic can now edit that page.

Regards,

Ralph
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[CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[R P Herrold]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2010, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:

> As Russ has said, they are not.

More context (said in our back archive, but recapped recently 
[and it should have crossed http://planet.centos.org/ when I 
issued this update] at
http://orcorc.blogspot.com/2010/08/chickens-coming-home-to-roost.html
which point to the primary source of the analysis of problems 
a license and rights review turned up)

> Indeed. Unfortunately we are not there. Not yet.

Really, I do not see a future in which Oracle CAN sufficiently 
'free' Java at least through v 1.6 series; and the related 
test kit [assuming for the sake of argument that it was 
INCLINED to do so].  The upshot of recent LSB calls is that 
the 'trial use' of Java will be withdrawn in the upcoming 4.1 
refresh, until and unless this future brightens [probably at 
least 2-3 years]

-- Russ herrold
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Manuel Wolfshant]

On 10/09/2010 12:47 PM, Ned Slider wrote:
> On 09/10/10 08:32, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
>
> 
>
>   
>> At least the jre package (and I am almost sure jdk too) from Sun comes
>> with the following structure:
>> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   16 Apr 10 01:25 default ->  /usr/java/latest
>> drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 4096 Jun 28 23:34 jre1.6.0_20
>> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   21 Jun 28 23:35 latest ->  /usr/java/jre1.6.0_20
>>
>> Using /usr/java/latest and / or /usr/java/default in your scripts makes
>> them immune to upgrades, as long as you stick with Sun's packages (
>> which - sad but true - make the java-openjdk / gcj packages useless and
>> offer ( for the moment ) better compatibility with the real world. At
>> least from I where I stand.
>>
>> 
>
> Are these redistributable? I'm sure they are as Red Hat has Sun's Java 
> packages on it's
> RHEL Supplementary disk for RHEL5 which it (re)distributes to customers.
>
>   
As Russ has said, they are not.
> In which case why doesn't someone just repackage these and stick them in 
> CentOS Extras/rpmforge or somewhere and the problem largely goes away. 
> Or am I missing something?
>   
Yup, you miss the fact that RH [ probably ] has agreements which allow 
them to redistribute some binary-only packages (even flash player) via a 
special channel to their  customers.
> If we had decent packages that Just Worked, we wouldn't need convoluted 
> documentation on how to install Java.
>   
Indeed. Unfortunately we are not there. Not yet.
However a 3 steps procedure ( 1) download from Sun; 2) install rpm 3) 
create a symlink for your browser ) is not that bad, given the previous 
options that we had.
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Ned Slider]

On 09/10/10 13:13, R P Herrold wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Ned Slider wrote:
>
>> Are these redistributable? I'm sure they are as Red Hat has
>> Sun's Java packages on it's RHEL Supplementary disk for
>> RHEL5 which it (re)distributes to customers.
>
> No, not without exposing oneself to some liability and
> obligations to Sun / Oracle.
>
> -- Russ herrold

OK, thanks for that Russ, and probably explains why no one has done the 
obvious before now!

Regards.



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[CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[R P Herrold]

On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Ned Slider wrote:

> Are these redistributable? I'm sure they are as Red Hat has 
> Sun's Java packages on it's RHEL Supplementary disk for 
> RHEL5 which it (re)distributes to customers.

No, not without exposing oneself to some liability and 
obligations to Sun / Oracle.

-- Russ herrold
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Ned Slider]

On 09/10/10 08:32, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:



>
> At least the jre package (and I am almost sure jdk too) from Sun comes
> with the following structure:
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   16 Apr 10 01:25 default ->  /usr/java/latest
> drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 4096 Jun 28 23:34 jre1.6.0_20
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   21 Jun 28 23:35 latest ->  /usr/java/jre1.6.0_20
>
> Using /usr/java/latest and / or /usr/java/default in your scripts makes
> them immune to upgrades, as long as you stick with Sun's packages (
> which - sad but true - make the java-openjdk / gcj packages useless and
> offer ( for the moment ) better compatibility with the real world. At
> least from I where I stand.
>

Are these redistributable? I'm sure they are as Red Hat has Sun's Java 
packages on it's
RHEL Supplementary disk for RHEL5 which it (re)distributes to customers.

In which case why doesn't someone just repackage these and stick them in 
CentOS Extras/rpmforge or somewhere and the problem largely goes away. 
Or am I missing something?

If we had decent packages that Just Worked, we wouldn't need convoluted 
documentation on how to install Java.

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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Manuel Wolfshant]

On 10/09/2010 04:33 AM, Milos Blazevic wrote:
> Bob Stine wrote:
>   
>> Milos Blazivec wrote:
>>
>> /... I am, in fact, interested in making adjustments to the Wiki /
>> /page - but sadly not the ones you proposed Bob, since the just
>> won't do /
>> /the trick./
>>
>>
>> Hmm.  I ran the executed the bin file, edited /etc/profile so that 
>> PATH included the "bin" directory of the sun jdk directory, added 
>> environment variable JDK_HOME,  deleted the /usr/bin/java symlink from 
>> java -> /etc/alternative/java, and everything works, or at least well 
>> enough for me to run the Eclipse C++ IDE, which was my goal.  
>>
>> Maybe adding the jdk was unnecessary for Eclipse to work?
>>
>> Could you unpack "just won't do", or point to a discussion of the issue?
>>
>> 
> What I meant is that the instructions you suggested in your first e-mail 
> are taken from: 
> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/install-linux-64-rpm-138254.html
> and are all but comprehenssive, let alone appropriate for beginners. 
> These installation instructions have been accompanying Sun Java as long 
> as I can remember, and "strangely", no one cared to mention 'em in the 
> Wiki page... don't you think that's kinda odd? I don't - 'cause they 
> don't work!
>
> This second part (editing /etc/profiles, deleting symlinks and editing 
> PATH...) is NOT what you mentioned in your first e-mail. However, in my 
> honest oppinion, this is still not the correct way to do this.
>
> What you did, is that you probably got it to work for Your particular 
> purpose by resorting to an unconventional method (i.e. circumvent the 
> mechanism intended for this purpose, rather than a by-the-book 
> approach). By solving the problem this way, sooner or later you'll end 
> up breaking something. Maintainance may prove difficult later
>
> For me, by-the-book is using "alternatives" utility for this purpose - 
> intended by the makers way to handle this kind of issues. (switching 
> between different mail servers, etc.)
>   

  Using alternatives in the context of Java is 100% useless for ordinary 
users who do not want to use the stock gcj or openjdk packages ( and 
therefore replace them with Sun's packages). As far as I have seen on 
the few hundreds workstations that I maintain + the requests in the IRC 
channel, users only need to run
- browser java plugin  ( solved by installing Sun's jre + a convenient 
ln -s already mentioned before in this thread
- java ( the binary, as in " java -Xmx400m -DuseDesktop=true 
-Dsun.java2d.pmoffscreen=false -jar /usr/share/jalbum/JAlbum.jar  ") in 
order to run .jar applications
- the libs needed by Eclipse, also mentioned before in the thread
> Better idea is to adjust symlink to point to the desired binary, rather 
> than editing PATH variable, deleting the symlink,...
>   

At least the jre package (and I am almost sure jdk too) from Sun comes 
with the following structure:
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   16 Apr 10 01:25 default -> /usr/java/latest
drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 4096 Jun 28 23:34 jre1.6.0_20
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   21 Jun 28 23:35 latest -> /usr/java/jre1.6.0_20

Using /usr/java/latest and / or /usr/java/default in your scripts makes 
them immune to upgrades, as long as you stick with Sun's packages ( 
which - sad but true - make the java-openjdk / gcj packages useless and 
offer ( for the moment ) better compatibility with the real world. At 
least from I where I stand.

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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Jerry Amundson]

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Milos Blazevic  wrote:
> Bob Stine wrote:
>> Milos Blazivec wrote:
>>
>>     /... I am, in fact, interested in making adjustments to the Wiki /
>>     /page - but sadly not the ones you proposed Bob, since the just
>>     won't do /
>>     /the trick./
>>
>> Hmm.  I ran the executed the bin file, edited /etc/profile so that
>> PATH included the "bin" directory of the sun jdk directory, added
>> environment variable JDK_HOME,  deleted the /usr/bin/java symlink from
>> java -> /etc/alternative/java, and everything works, or at least well
>> enough for me to run the Eclipse C++ IDE, which was my goal.
>>
>> Maybe adding the jdk was unnecessary for Eclipse to work?
>>
>> Could you unpack "just won't do", or point to a discussion of the issue?
>>
>> Thanks.
>> ---
>> Bob Stine
>> b...@waltonstine.net   (703) 217-4784
>> /Rule for living: What Would Clint Eastwood Do?/
>>
> What I meant is that the instructions you suggested in your first e-mail
> are taken from:
> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/install-linux-64-rpm-138254.html
> and are all but comprehensive, let alone appropriate for beginners.
> These installation instructions have been accompanying Sun Java as long
> as I can remember, and "strangely", no one cared to mention 'em in the
> Wiki page... don't you think that's kinda odd? I don't - 'cause they
> don't work!
>
> This second part (editing /etc/profiles, deleting symlinks and editing
> PATH...) is NOT what you mentioned in your first e-mail. However, in my
> honest opinion, this is still not the correct way to do this.
>
> What you did, is that you probably got it to work for Your particular
> purpose by resorting to an unconventional method (i.e. circumvent the
> mechanism intended for this purpose, rather than a by-the-book
> approach). By solving the problem this way, sooner or later you'll end
> up breaking something. Maintenance may prove difficult later

Agreed. Sometimes the road best taken is the one not yet travelled.

jerry
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Milos Blazevic]

Bob Stine wrote:
> Milos Blazivec wrote:
>
> /... I am, in fact, interested in making adjustments to the Wiki /
> /page - but sadly not the ones you proposed Bob, since the just
> won't do /
> /the trick./
>
>
> Hmm.  I ran the executed the bin file, edited /etc/profile so that 
> PATH included the "bin" directory of the sun jdk directory, added 
> environment variable JDK_HOME,  deleted the /usr/bin/java symlink from 
> java -> /etc/alternative/java, and everything works, or at least well 
> enough for me to run the Eclipse C++ IDE, which was my goal.  
>
> Maybe adding the jdk was unnecessary for Eclipse to work?
>
> Could you unpack "just won't do", or point to a discussion of the issue?
>
> Thanks.
> ---
> Bob Stine
> b...@waltonstine.net   (703) 217-4784
> /Rule for living: What Would Clint Eastwood Do?/
>
> 
>
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>   
What I meant is that the instructions you suggested in your first e-mail 
are taken from: 
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/install-linux-64-rpm-138254.html
and are all but comprehenssive, let alone appropriate for beginners. 
These installation instructions have been accompanying Sun Java as long 
as I can remember, and "strangely", no one cared to mention 'em in the 
Wiki page... don't you think that's kinda odd? I don't - 'cause they 
don't work!

This second part (editing /etc/profiles, deleting symlinks and editing 
PATH...) is NOT what you mentioned in your first e-mail. However, in my 
honest oppinion, this is still not the correct way to do this.

What you did, is that you probably got it to work for Your particular 
purpose by resorting to an unconventional method (i.e. circumvent the 
mechanism intended for this purpose, rather than a by-the-book 
approach). By solving the problem this way, sooner or later you'll end 
up breaking something. Maintainance may prove difficult later

For me, by-the-book is using "alternatives" utility for this purpose - 
intended by the makers way to handle this kind of issues. (switching 
between different mail servers, etc.)

Better idea is to adjust symlink to point to the desired binary, rather 
than editing PATH variable, deleting the symlink,...

Eclipse has got nothing to do with all this...

-- 
***Milos Blazevic*
Cert. No: 805010564450148
Email: milos.blaze...@sbb.rs 
Tel: 064/301 45 78
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Bob Stine]

Milos Blazivec wrote:

... I am, in fact, interested in making adjustments to the Wiki 
>page - but sadly not the ones you proposed Bob, since the just won't do 
>the trick.

Hmm.  I ran the executed the bin file, edited /etc/profile so that PATH 
included 
the "bin" directory of the sun jdk directory, added environment variable 
JDK_HOME,  deleted the /usr/bin/java symlink from java -> 
/etc/alternative/java, 
and everything works, or at least well enough for me to run the Eclipse C++ 
IDE, 
which was my goal.  

Maybe adding the jdk was unnecessary for Eclipse to work?

Could you unpack "just won't do", or point to a discussion of the issue?

Thanks.
---
Bob Stine 
b...@waltonstine.net  (703) 217-4784
Rule for living: What Would Clint Eastwood Do?
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Milos Blazevic]

Bob Stine wrote:
> I've read website http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/JavaOnCentOS 
> .  I am a total newbie 
> with CentOS, but currently, with update 21 of the Java 6 JDK and 
> CentOS 5.5, the installing the JDK appears to be simpler:
>
> 1. Download the latest *rpm.bin jdk (as of 
> today,jdk-6u21-linux-i586-rpm.bin) 
> fromhttp://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/widget/jdk6.jsp 
> 
> 2. chmod +x the downloaded file.
> 3. su
> 4. Execute the file.
>
> The main advantage of this procedure is that you do not need to build 
> an RPM. 
> ---
> Bob Stine
> b...@waltonstine.net   (703) 217-4784
> /Rule for living: What Would Clint Eastwood Do?/
>
> 
>
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>   
This issue with Wiki page has been discussed recently on the following 
forum topic:
https://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=116041&topic_id=28126&forum=38#forumpost116041

and although I never got to reply to Alan Bartlett's proposition (sorry 
Alan), cause I never got the time to go through the whole thing 
thoroughly - been rather busy lately.

However, I am, in fact, interested in making adjustments to the Wiki 
page - but sadly not the ones you proposed Bob, since the just won't do 
the trick.
I have to admitt, I don't recall the above instructions (provided at 
Sun/Oracle's web site - with the links to download the Sun Java SDK 
package) ever
doing any good.

So, Ralph (or any other Wiki admin) would you be kind enough to escalate 
my privileges in order for me to edit the JavaOnCentOS Wiki?

Of course, if we get to it, I'll make sure we discuss it thoroughly on 
the mailing list before the changes go public.


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Re: [CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Shaun Jones]

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Bob Stine  wrote:

> I've read website http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/JavaOnCentOS.  I am a
> total newbie with CentOS, but currently, with update 21 of the Java 6 JDK
> and CentOS 5.5, the installing the JDK appears to be simpler:
>
> 1. Download the latest *rpm.bin jdk (as of
> today,jdk-6u21-linux-i586-rpm.bin) from
> http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/widget/jdk6.jsp
> 2. chmod +x the downloaded file.
> 3. su
> 4. Execute the file.
>
> The main advantage of this procedure is that you do not need to build an
> RPM.
> ---
> Bob Stine
> b...@waltonstine.net  (703) 217-4784
>   *Rule for living: What Would Clint Eastwood Do?*
>
>
> ___
>


 Don't forget to add your symlinks

-- 
Shaun

http://lostonsvault.org

twitter - http://twitter.com/lostson

identi - http://identi.ca/lostson
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[CentOS-docs] Suggestion for "how to" section: easy way to install the JDK?

[Bob Stine]

I've read website http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/JavaOnCentOS.  I am a total 
newbie with CentOS, but currently, with update 21 of the Java 6 JDK and CentOS 
5.5, the installing the JDK appears to be simpler:

1. Download the latest *rpm.bin jdk (as of today,jdk-6u21-linux-i586-rpm.bin) 
fromhttp://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/widget/jdk6.jsp

2. chmod +x the downloaded file.
3. su
4. Execute the file.

The main advantage of this procedure is that you do not need to build an RPM. 
---
Bob Stine 
b...@waltonstine.net  (703) 217-4784
Rule for living: What Would Clint Eastwood Do?
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