Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 09:42:16PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 09:59:22PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 08:33:00PM -0700, Scott wrote: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being packaged for stable. Hi Marc, Which browser do you use? Remember, you asked... Normally links2 in GUI mode. It loads almost instantaneously, it's fast, and since I don't give a rat's ass what designers think their pages are supposed to look like, the fact that it doesn't do CSS is of no importance. Mozilla if a page isn't navigable in links2, although high on my worth bothering with at all criteria list is whether a page is usable in links2, and I'm much more likely to simply not waste my time visiting pages that aren't than I am to load an alternative browser. -- Marc Wilson | A language that doesn't have everything is actually [EMAIL PROTECTED] | easier to program in than some that do. -- Dennis | M. Ritchie -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 03:11:44PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote: I meant what I said. We have OGo connecting to a previously-existing mysql database, for mailshots etc. It works perfectly well. I can only speak from my experience. You mean a mail merge? -- Chris. == Reproduction if desired may be handled locally. -- rfc3 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 09:59:22PM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 08:33:00PM -0700, Scott wrote: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being packaged for stable. Hi Marc, Which browser do you use? -- Chris. == Reproduction if desired may be handled locally. -- rfc3 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 10:22:02AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Clarification: When etch transitions from Testing to Stable, all the packages (including, by that time, OpenOffice.org 2) will stay in etch/Stable. Is there any known timeline when this my happen? Juraj Fedel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:29:35AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 13:46 +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge. I thought that in those cases they actually bumped up the version number. Me too - slightly disturbed they haven't. Any idea why not? -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sun, 2005-11-20 at 09:52 +0100, Juraj Fedel wrote: On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 10:22:02AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Clarification: When etch transitions from Testing to Stable, all the packages (including, by that time, OpenOffice.org 2) will stay in etch/Stable. Is there any known timeline when this my happen? No, not really. There are plans and desires and hopes, but they bear no reflection on reality. :( That's one of the reason why people who use testing and/or Sid stick with those branches. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA There's no obfuscated Perl contest because it's pointless. Jeff Polk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Hi Antony, Am 2005-11-15 11:11:02, schrieb Antony Gelberg: It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what to do when their system breaks. HOW can a newbie come to TESTING or UNSTABLE? A newbie which come to our website, WILL download STABLE. A newbie who downloads TESTING or UNSTABLE was following directions by other people WHICH KNOW how to use it. I have never recommended to newbies downloading TESTING or UNSTABLE because I am aware of the problems... Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Am 2005-11-17 08:48:33, schrieb loos: 1. Normal = most of them does just that. I do not know ONE newbie which is using TESTING or UNSTABLE. 2. Debian unstable is just as good as a stable Fedora, etc. My Development Workstation was broken several times in the last 4 month. There was no chance for newbies to get it running again. 3. By having problems, which on unstable are rapidly resolved (1 week) they actually learn a lot. Beginning with a little patience. You mean those guys which send then wit M$ Outlook Express to the Debian lists and break mail threads where you do not find the singel messages in your Mailbox ? 4. They usually don't price stability at all since they don't devellop for anything, they just use. ??? Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
HOW can a newbie come to TESTING or UNSTABLE? I did. Testing, specifically, and ran into all the trouble one would expect. A newbie which come to our website, WILL download STABLE. False. There are more examples than just I. Unless, of course, by our you mean some other web site than Debian.org. A newbie who downloads TESTING or UNSTABLE was following directions by other people WHICH KNOW how to use it. False again. I came to Debian having never used Linux before, nor knowing any more than Hey, check out this Linux thing from one coworker. My decision was based entirely on reading the Debian web page, which has not changed substantially in structure since then. I have never recommended to newbies downloading TESTING or UNSTABLE because I am aware of the problems... Which is exactly what I was informed of when I, having problems with Testing, started asking questions in the Debian-user forum. Greetings Michelle Curt- -- September 11th, 2001 The proudest day for gun control and central planning advocates in American history -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
newbie - unstable, that's normal. If you like it that way. And they will learn a lot. Why is it normal for a newbie to use unstable? It's usually an initial period of look at me, I'm using Debian without having to use their cruddy old software followed by a cry for help, either here or on IRC, when they hose their system and can't fix it. 1. Normal = most of them does just that. 2. Debian unstable is just as good as a stable Fedora, etc. 3. By having problems, which on unstable are rapidly resolved (1 week) they actually learn a lot. Beginning with a little patience. 4. They usually don't price stability at all since they don't devellop for anything, they just use. For who is stable: Experts, sysadmins etc. That a fantastic base where you can build anything fot it and be sure you can put in production anywhere because the base is the same. Stable is our Solaris, in their sense Stable is the most advanced distribution All very romantic, but not too factual. That's the way I see it used around me. Michel. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Am 2005-11-13 03:43:00, schrieb Oliver Lupton: Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been due to security issues. Following the link you gave, I get to a file such as mozilla-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge5_i386.deb, I'm not entirely sure what the '-2' part means, but the 'sarge5' refers to this being the fifth security update the the 1.0.4[-2] package. At least, that's how I understand it :) ...and it is 1.07 but renamed! Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Am 2005-11-12 21:59:22, schrieb Marc Wilson: Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being packaged for stable. This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security fixes in it. I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for sure. No, 1.04 has NONE 1.07 security fixes in it. 1.04 from Sarge IS the version 1.07 from Etch. Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge. Please consider rteading the changelog. Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Am 2005-11-14 23:27:29, schrieb Antony Gelberg: Michael Marsh wrote: In short, the patched version of Firefox in sarge is *not* 1.0.7, so calling it 1.0.7 would be a mistake. Um, as I've said elsewhere in this thread, it is a newer upstream version than 1.0.4. Not sure exactly what version it is, though. You mean: __( 'stdin' )_ / | Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:06:47 +0200 (CEST) | To: debian-security-announce@lists.debian.org (Debian Security Announcements) | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Martin Schulze) | Subject: [SECURITY] [DSA 779-2] New Mozilla Firefox packages fix several vulnerabilities | | -- | Debian Security Advisory DSA 779-2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.debian.org/security/ Martin Schulze | September 1st, 2005 http://www.debian.org/security/faq | -- | | Package: mozilla-firefox | Vulnerability : several | Problem-Type : remote | Debian-specific: no | CVE ID : CAN-2005-2260 CAN-2005-2261 CAN-2005-2262 CAN-2005-2263 | CAN-2005-2264 CAN-2005-2265 CAN-2005-2266 CAN-2005-2267 | CAN-2005-2268 CAN-2005-2269 CAN-2005-2270 | BugTraq ID : 14242 | Debian Bug : 318061 | | We experienced that the update for Mozilla Firefox from DSA 779-1 | unfortunately was a regression in several cases. Since the usual ^^^ | praxis of backporting apparently does not work, this update is ^^ | basically version 1.0.6 with the version number rolled back, and hence ^^ | still named 1.0.4-*. For completeness below is the original advisory ^^^ snip | Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 alias sarge | - | | Source archives: | | http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz | illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3.dsc | Size/MD5 checksum: 1001 e9e343d5899bc10b64650464839db1dc | http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz | illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3.diff.gz | Size/MD5 checksum: 323682 3e07c7d42de155ed01210386bc2f06f7 | http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz | illa-firefox_1.0.4.orig.tar.gz | Size/MD5 checksum: 40212297 8e4ba81ad02c7986446d4e54e978409d | | Intel IA-32 architecture: | | http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz | illa-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb | Size/MD5 checksum: 8889628 c7730b4e3df2f6a0bb12186a52884a9e | http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz | illa-firefox-dom-inspector_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb | Size/MD5 checksum: 156844 806fd550f9a5283e4fab73443c73fbcd | http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/moz | illa-firefox-gnome-support_1.0.4-2sarge3_i386.deb | Size/MD5 checksum:54096 9eb9d71896406a619bd186bfe10ed0f2 | \__ Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Am 2005-11-13 11:32:16, schrieb Antony Gelberg: Bruce Hohl wrote: OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software. snip Why? Because you will need biger CPU's and more memory in your computer which will make the manufacturer richer. :-P Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Am 2005-11-12 17:05:54, schrieb Antony Gelberg: Antony Gelberg wrote: http://www.debian.doc/releases might help you understand how releases work in Debian. Oops. s/doc/com | s/com/org/ Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 13:46 +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2005-11-12 21:59:22, schrieb Marc Wilson: Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being packaged for stable. This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security fixes in it. I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for sure. No, 1.04 has NONE 1.07 security fixes in it. 1.04 from Sarge IS the version 1.07 from Etch. Backporting from security fixes in Mozilla or Firefox are to heavy so they have considered to use 1.07 and rename it for Sarge. I thought that in those cases they actually bumped up the version number. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Democracy becomes a government of bullies, tempered by editors. Ralph Waldo Emerson -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote: On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 01:26:50AM +, Antony Gelberg wrote: I think users need to get back to learning a little. I was asked by a customer yesterday why Thunderbird doesn't capitalise the H in Hello like Outlook (Word) does. I was too speechless to suggest just typing properly. In fact most tools that I have seen that are designed to be operated with no knowledge of the subject, produce inferior output. Even granting this arguendo, it lets a non-techie somewhere produce SOMETHING, in an hour, that does what he needs, without hiring you or me to do it for him. So it's inefficent. So what? Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization (or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale and/or is full of bad data. Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to design databases. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. If thine enemy offend thee, give his child a drum. Chinese Curse -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:23 +, Antony Gelberg wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Andy Streich wrote: [snip] No, it's not, and that's not what I said. I was pointing out that encouraging newbies to use testing or unstable, is possibly not the best idea ever. As long as they go in with a reasonable amount of disclosure as to the differences between stable testing/unstable, I don't see why not. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning, but without understanding. Justice Louis Brandeis, dissenting, Olmstead v US (1928) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:40:32AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote: So it's inefficent. So what? Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization (or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale and/or is full of bad data. And you know that this will happen in every case, of course. And this hurts the developer that gets hired to produce the new database how? Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to design databases. Don't assume it's impossible to do both well, and I won't laugh in your face. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 22:41 -0500, Carl Fink wrote: On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 09:40:32AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 22:43 -0500, Carl Fink wrote: So it's inefficent. So what? Because in 6 months or a year, when the size of that quick-and-dirty DB grows bigger than expected, and becomes vital to the organization (or subset thereof), they suddenly realize that it doesn't scale and/or is full of bad data. And you know that this will happen in every case, of course. And this hurts the developer that gets hired to produce the new database how? That's if a developer is hired to fix it. They might just decide to limp along with it like it is. Your original point, though, was inefficiency, and hiring a DB developer to fix a borken app is definitely less efficient than doing it right in the 1st place. Don't ask me to figure out HR regulations, and I won't ask you to design databases. Don't assume it's impossible to do both well, and I won't laugh in your face. Impossible is a 'big' word. I'm sure there are some people who are expert in both HR regulations and DB design and implementation. Darn few, though, and probably work for HR outsourcing firms. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Rightly hating violence, [pacifists] do not wish to recognise that it is integral to modern society and that their own fine feelings and noble attitudes are all the fruit of injustice backed up by force. They do not want to learn where their incomes come from. George Orwell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
\ 9- # chmod 777 /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice This step seemed but soffice was installed with mode 000 and therefore could not be executed (started). Bad idea, there are a lot of steps between 000 and 777 Don't ever use 777 It is a program you don't need write permission: 755 seems more apropriate Michel. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 10:33:37PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote: [OpenOffice.org's new database-front-end capabilities] I'd still like to know what, in business terms if you like, you can do with this, that you cannot do with e.g. LAMP. It's a weird question. There's nothing there you can't do with dBASE III, either, or COBOL on an IBM System/370. What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Carl Fink wrote: What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW. Ah... you mean inefficiently and incorrectly. Got it. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 04:52:55PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Carl Fink wrote: What the Access-like features of OOo 2 let one do is create and manipulate and use databases WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF TIME LEARNING HOW. Ah... you mean inefficiently and incorrectly. Got it. Ah, you're a posturing tech snob. Got it. Heck, I've only done actual work with dBASE III and on S/370s. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
--- loos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 9- # chmod 777 /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice This step seemed but soffice was installed with mode 000 and therefore could not be executed (started). Bad idea, there are a lot of steps between 000 and 777 Don't ever use 777 It is a program you don't need write permission: 755 seems more apropriate Michel. Thanks, So noted, and changed to 755. __ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 01:26:50AM +, Antony Gelberg wrote: I think users need to get back to learning a little. I was asked by a customer yesterday why Thunderbird doesn't capitalise the H in Hello like Outlook (Word) does. I was too speechless to suggest just typing properly. In fact most tools that I have seen that are designed to be operated with no knowledge of the subject, produce inferior output. Even granting this arguendo, it lets a non-techie somewhere produce SOMETHING, in an hour, that does what he needs, without hiring you or me to do it for him. So it's inefficent. So what? -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Andy Streich wrote: latest and greatest of everything. What I did find surprising after reading this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also really slow release cycle. Okay, that's the price you pay for really stable. Why be so hung up on release cycles? I mean, really. You know how much attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing? Well, other than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none. Again, it has to be stressed, there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they choose to a later version. None. At all. Stable just means it won't be updated out from under you. That's *it*. You want newer, go get newer! Have fun! Debian won't be upset, I promise. It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what to do when their system breaks. So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort to read the Debian web site? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. python -c 'print len(str(2**30))' 90309 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Em Ter, 2005-11-15 às 16:44 -0600, Ron Johnson escreveu: On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 11:11 +, Antony Gelberg wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Andy Streich wrote: latest and greatest of everything. What I did find surprising after reading this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also really slow release cycle. Okay, that's the price you pay for really stable. Why be so hung up on release cycles? I mean, really. You know how much attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing? Well, other than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none. Again, it has to be stressed, there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they choose to a later version. None. At all. Stable just means it won't be updated out from under you. That's *it*. You want newer, go get newer! Have fun! Debian won't be upset, I promise. It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what to do when their system breaks. So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort to read the Debian web site? newbie - testing is totally antinomic. It is impossible for a newbie to use testing reasonabl and provide the expected feedback. newbie - unstable, that's normal. If you like it that way. And they will learn a lot. For who is stable: Experts, sysadmins etc. That a fantastic base where you can build anything fot it and be sure you can put in production anywhere because the base is the same. Stable is our Solaris, in their sense Stable is the most advanced distribution Michel.
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable because they "have" to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what to do when their system breaks. So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort to read the Debian web site? Gentlemen: My original question has morphed into something other than I intended. Firstly, I did not whine about Debian. I simply stated IMHO OpenOffice 2 is an important piece of software, important enough to get into Testing ASAP and provide debs for Sarge. No one has to agree with my *opinion*. It is simply feedback from someone who has used Linux for three years (I'm only a newbie to Debian). Secondly, I did in fact make an effort to determine if I could get OpenOffice onto Sarge easily (i.e. from a repository or deb packages - these options do not yet appear available). More and more I want Linux to be easy to use, stable (as in Sarge), open, and have good software - this led me to Debian. I "need" OO Base because I need an MS Access like application for Linux, and I need it now! Access has been around for like 10+ years. The following are my install notes for OO2 on Debian Sarge. More formal instruction can be found at: http://download.openoffice.org/2.0.0/instructions.html. I have not yet used 002 enough to state that all works well and that it is stable on Sarge :). OpenOffice 2.0 Install (my notes) = 0- Uninstall your current OpenOffice version. If you keep it see the README files. 1- Make sure Jave 1.4+ is installed: [EMAIL PROTECTED] dpkg -l jre* ii j2re1.4 1.4.2.01-1 Blackdown Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment OK. 2- If not download and install (or from apt-get): http://www.java.com/en/download/linux_manual.jsp 3- Download OpenOffice 2.0 from www.openoffice.org File is OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz 4- # mv OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz /opt 5- # tar -xvzf OOo_2.0.0_LinuxIntel_install.tar.gz 6- # alien --to-deb *.rpm # rm *.rpm (no longer needed) 7- # cp desktop-integration/*.deb ./ 8- # dpkg -i *.deb 9- # chmod 777 /opt/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice This step seemed but soffice was installed with mode 000 and therefore could not be executed (started). Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Tue, 2005-11-15 at 18:25 -0800, Bruce Hohl wrote: It's not that simple. A lot of newbies dive into testing or unstable because they have to have the newest stuff, then they don't know what to do when their system breaks. So it's Debian's *fault* that newbies whine when they make no effort to read the Debian web site? Gentlemen: My original question has morphed into something other than I intended. Firstly, I did not whine about Debian. I simply stated It's the generic newbie... :) IMHO OpenOffice 2 is an important piece of software, important enough to get into Testing ASAP and provide debs for Sarge. No one has to agree with my *opinion*. It is simply feedback from someone who has used Linux for three years (I'm only a newbie to Debian). Secondly, I did in fact make an effort to determine if I could get OpenOffice onto Sarge easily (i.e. from a repository or deb packages - these options do not yet appear available). More and more I want Linux to be easy to use, stable (as in Sarge), open, and have good software - this led me to Debian. I need OO Base because I need an MS Access like application for Linux, and I need it now! Access has been around for like 10+ years. Either upgrade to Sid or look for it at apt-get.org : http://www1.apt-get.org/search.php?query=openoffice.orgsubmit=arch%5B% 5D=i386arch%5B%5D=all and search for 2.0.0. Maybe it's compiled for Etch. And search thru the debian-openoffice mailing list archives to see what's preventing it from moving into Etch. I *guarantee* you that there is a very good reason why it hasn't yet been moved to Etch. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. Albert Einstein -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Em Dom, 2005-11-13 às 17:19 -0500, Carl Fink escreveu: On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote: Carl Fink wrote: Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway? That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone certainly has different needs in applications. That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating system. A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available for it. That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't included. They are included in the unstable distribution (whose programs are stable). The latest programs, by the very definition of stable, can not be included in stable. If you change the programs included in a stable it isn't stable anymore. You run stable in order to have a perfectly stable bases on which you can build your computer. This way when something goes wrong it is very easy to find the responsible. Michel.
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 01:39:07PM -0200, loos wrote: Em Dom, 2005-11-13 ?s 17:19 -0500, Carl Fink escreveu: On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote: Carl Fink wrote: Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway? That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone certainly has different needs in applications. That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating system. A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available for it. That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't included. They are included in the unstable distribution (whose programs are stable). Absolutely true and completely irrelevant to my point. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kent West wrote: No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the desktop user. It's also why I'll never run stable It is not a flaw. It's a designed in feature. _The Point_ of Debian is to produce _stable_. All else is mere means to that end (though perhaps useful in other ways; you _may_ run sid IFF you're willing to accept _non-stable_ behaviour). Stability is what Debian was trying to produce when Murdock friends began. That's still a cornerstone value. Considering all the downstream distributions based on Debian, that strategy is working well. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292 - -Spammers! http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling/autospam.html http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Monday 14 November 2005 09:21 am, s. keeling wrote: Stability is what Debian was trying to produce when Murdock friends began. That's still a cornerstone value. Considering all the downstream distributions based on Debian, that strategy is working well. I agree. But as a relative newbie myself I'd like to better understand the rationale. A newbie looking at the plethora of distros is one confused and mystified individual. I chose Debian because of its open development model and reputation for stability (and lacked the time to investigate the 100+ so alternatives). The net-install was a quite a pleasure -- living without sound until I bought new hardware was a small price to pay. My use is primarily Java and web development and document writing. I don't need the latest and greatest of everything. What I did find surprising after reading this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also really slow release cycle. Okay, that's the price you pay for really stable. What seems odd to me is that a stable release is not just the OS and utilities but also all the applications that run on top of them (15,000+ packages total -- that certainly explains the release cycle time). Is the rationale that this is the best way to do testing and configuration management? Is it just a consequence of the way Debian has grown up? Or something else entirely? As a newbie I expected there to be a set of OS/utility packages that were released together (say, for example, like Sun does with Solaris) and various sets of application software that had independent release cycles. The Debian model seems to be that all FLOSS software constitutes a Debian release and once that release happens you can pick and choose what you want. Why is that a good thing? Any clarification on the above will be appreciated. I'm not throwing stones here, just trying to figure out what the motivation is so I can better understand the Debian way. Andy
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 05:50:18PM -0800, Andy Streich wrote: On Monday 14 November 2005 09:21 am, s. keeling wrote: Stability is what Debian was trying to produce when Murdock friends began. That's still a cornerstone value. Considering all the downstream distributions based on Debian, that strategy is working well. I agree. But as a relative newbie myself I'd like to better understand the rationale. Better to try and understand it than to blindly criticize. A newbie looking at the plethora of distros is one confused and mystified individual. I chose Debian because of its open development model and reputation for stability (and lacked the time to investigate the 100+ so alternatives). The net-install was a quite a pleasure -- living without sound until I bought new hardware was a small price to pay. My use is primarily Java and web development and document writing. I don't need the latest and greatest of everything. What I did find surprising after reading this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also really slow release cycle. Okay, that's the price you pay for really stable. In my case, I am willing to live with some out of date applications (I back port the apps that are critical to my work) so that I can be certain that my machine will always be functional, barring a hardware failure. What seems odd to me is that a stable release is not just the OS and utilities but also all the applications that run on top of them (15,000+ packages total -- that certainly explains the release cycle time). Is the rationale that this is the best way to do testing and configuration management? Is it just a consequence of the way Debian has grown up? Or something else entirely? The rationale is that the admin should expect that a package installed from the official Debian repository will *not* change behavior between releases. That is why security fixes are backported and not simply brought an as updated version of the package. There are certain packages, like those of the Mozilla family that violate this since it is not possible. Upstream, Mozilla is developed in such a way so to make backported security fixes nearly impossible and then they actively discourage such practices, which has been the cause of some tension between the Debian and Mozilla projects. The reason it is done this is so that I can depend on a known set of functionality that will not change for the life of the release. I can write a program and be certain that it will work even if security updates are made, since those security updates will not include a version bump of a core library that causes the app to break. Since not all programs in the world are packaged for Debian, simply looking at the applications in the official repository does not tell the whole story. As a newbie I expected there to be a set of OS/utility packages that were released together (say, for example, like Sun does with Solaris) and various sets of application software that had independent release cycles. The Debian model seems to be that all FLOSS software constitutes a Debian release and once that release happens you can pick and choose what you want. Why is that a good thing? Unfortunately, the Debian project does not have enough people or infrastructure to make that happen. Please feel free to fund such an effort :-) Any clarification on the above will be appreciated. I'm not throwing stones here, just trying to figure out what the motivation is so I can better understand the Debian way. Andy HTH, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://familiasanchez.net/~roberto pgp2UULOdQbTf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Andy Streich wrote: latest and greatest of everything. What I did find surprising after reading this list for a while was that stable meant not only really stable but also really slow release cycle. Okay, that's the price you pay for really stable. Why be so hung up on release cycles? I mean, really. You know how much attention I've paid to Debian's release cycles since installing? Well, other than the libc5 - glibc2 conversion, none. Again, it has to be stressed, there is nothing that prevents the user from upgrading any package they choose to a later version. None. At all. Stable just means it won't be updated out from under you. That's *it*. You want newer, go get newer! Have fun! Debian won't be upset, I promise. As a newbie I expected there to be a set of OS/utility packages that were released together (say, for example, like Sun does with Solaris) and various sets of application software that had independent release cycles. The Debian model seems to be that all FLOSS software constitutes a Debian release and once that release happens you can pick and choose what you want. Why is that a good thing? Application behaviors change between releases. Hell, applications configuration often changes and breaks between releases. Also define applications versus OS. MySQL, which is it? I mean it is a dependancy for many other tools but not something itself that would be considered part of the OS. Exim? Postfix? X? As I said, ya want newer, go for it! Stable makes that possible because it is just that, stable. People can compile for stable knowing what's going to be there. It isn't a moving target. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Marc Wilson wrote: On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 08:33:00PM -0700, Scott wrote: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being packaged for stable. This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security fixes in it. I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for sure. Now that you mention it, Ubuntu used to do this the same way till they came to their senses (and after a bajillion user complaints). -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Robert Brockway wrote: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott wrote: I was absolutely blown away by this: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ I'm rather surprised to see this. Why? Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been due to security issues. It's normal for the Debian security team to backport changes into the existing code base in Debian. Thus I expect the Firefox 1.04 to be the vanilla source 1.04 plus backported security fixes. This is a _good_ thing as it means less changes on an update. This is one of the strengths of the Debian approach. Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from another Linux distro. Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent string.. I say, that approach is fine, but why not show the right freakin version number? Even if they didn't have to backport, patching would be simpler than starting over from scratch anyway.Heck the next version of Firefox will do it that way anyway (assuming one is using a version downloaded from Mozilla, that is). -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Steve Lamb wrote: Scott wrote: And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE 4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from sticking with Debian stable You still misunderstand. The point is there is no one standing there with a gun to their head forcing said people to stick to stable. *NO ONE*. Considering I'm *not* running stable, I understand perfectly. Where have I implied I was? The point of stable is that the *version numbers are. STABLE!* If they want all the goodies they are perfectly capable of moving up the tree to testing or unstable. What Debian (or SOMEBODY please) needs is a new stable release at least once a year with security updates, bugfixes AND *major* software package (i.e 1.5 to 2.0, 3.6-4.0) updates to that release as the next release is being simultaneously developed. Wait, there is one I can think of, but unfortunately they utilize this software called YUM and hand have a gazillion packages but Debian has a gazillion and a half. Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I felt etch/sid would be what I wanted. They are, except unlike the previously mentioned distro, I'm much more on my own when it comes to security updates. On the other hand, I've yet to be affected by Joe Blow, Hobart, Tasmania, discovered a buffer overrun if you disable the flex capacitor in insert name of program I never use, rarely use or never heard of on rainy Thursdays :-) So I get my latest and greatest and takes my chances. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be that way. And that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I'm sorry I brought it up. -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Marc Wilson wrote: On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 04:55:36PM -0700, Scott wrote: Marc Wilson wrote: OpenOffice.org 2 will never be added to Debian stable. Instead, the next time there is a stable release (Etch), OpenOffice.org 2 will be included. And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE 4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from sticking with Debian stable Which is no one's problem but their own. Which is all that matters (or doesn't) to them. Despite what the average cluebie believes, software does not come with a magic expiration date. No agrument there, often times I've stuck with a program because I didn't like what the new and improved version brought me. They use something other than stable, they deserve what happens to them. That's why they're not releases. 'Nuff said. Or they find a distro that can produce a stable version in less than three years. There are a number of them. It's really not at all unsual... Oh, now I'm done. -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Version numbers and backporting [was Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]
[Discussion on Debian version numbers and backporting] On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Scott wrote: Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from another Linux distro. Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent string.. I say, that approach is fine, but why not show the right freakin version Because the version is 1.04 not 1.07. Changing the version number to 1.07 when an app is really 1.04 with backported fixes would be bad bad. The version number can define features, defaults, bugs and behaviour. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.Web:www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Scott wrote: [snip] What Debian (or SOMEBODY please) needs is a new stable release at least once a year with security updates, bugfixes AND *major* software package (i.e 1.5 to 2.0, 3.6-4.0) updates to that release as the next release is being simultaneously developed. Wait, there is one I can think of, but unfortunately they utilize this software called YUM and hand have a gazillion packages but Debian has a gazillion and a half. Don't get me wrong, I'm here because I felt etch/sid would be what I wanted. They are, except unlike the previously mentioned distro, I'm much more on my own when it comes to security updates. On the other hand, I've yet to be affected by Joe Blow, Hobart, Tasmania, discovered a buffer overrun if you disable the flex capacitor in insert name of program I never use, rarely use or never heard of on rainy Thursdays :-) So I get my latest and greatest and takes my chances. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be that way. And that's pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I'm sorry I brought it up. Don't be sorry. Change doesn't happen if everyone stays silent. Everything changes, and it's possible that the Linux scene has changed over the past few years too. There was a time when platform stability was a much rarer beast and Debian Stable meant something head and shoulders above the rest. These days stability is becoming much more of a given, as other distros have increasingly got their act together, and the notion of Debian Stable is perhaps not as valuable and exclusive as it once was. I also run SuSE and have done for a few years now. It is normally every bit as stable as Debian Stable and security updates are often faster as well. The software on SuSE is generally a lot more recent. Of course, you can point out that SuSE lacks apt and so it is wipe and install again when a new version appears (although SUSE releases have been supported for two years after launch, and in some cases it is possible simply to upgrade). However, this is a different issue from stability per se. I suspect that Debian probably will need to change its policy on releases and it's software tree generally if it wishes to remain relevent in the coming years. In the meantime, having tried all three releases, I have settled on Sid. It's for desktop use, and the Linux desktop is still rapidly improving in all sorts of ways. Cutting myself off from that by using Stable is not an attractive option for me. Some of the comments on here about folks deserving everything they get and so forth if they do not run Stable are highly unattractive and reinforce negative attitudes about Debian. Since I'd like to make Debian my OS from here on in, this pains me. :) Fish -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 04:50:50PM -0700, Scott wrote: Kent West wrote: No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the desktop user. It's also why I'll never run stable I think quite a lot of people are very happy to use stable on desktop systems. Most people who aren't are not typical desktop users themselves, but geeks or enthusiasts who want new-fangled stuff. For day-to-day office tasks and the like, a rock-solid base, where the layout of buttons etc. doesn't change every other week, is infinitely more desirable. As the notion of desktop user moves further and further away from the legacy of windows, and the levels of stability that brought with it, At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for the next stable release. Indeed, although I'll reserve judgement on their definition of stable until its been around a bit longer. And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several months. They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release. Fedora Core is nowhere near comparable in terms of stability to debian, so their legacy of releases and software versions is not worth attempting to live up to. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 02:42:25AM -0700, Scott wrote: Robert Brockway wrote: It's normal for the Debian security team to backport changes into the existing code base in Debian. Thus I expect the Firefox 1.04 to be the vanilla source 1.04 plus backported security fixes. This is a _good_ thing as it means less changes on an update. This is one of the strengths of the Debian approach. Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from another Linux distro. I don't see why: the ship the version they state they do, and fix security problems as they arise. Very logical to me. If people really expect either security problems to sit unfixed, then I think they have been set a pretty low standard by whatever other distro they've come via. Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent string.. I don't think the UA should be used to describe security patch levels. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]
Original Message Subject:Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie Resent-Date:Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:40:36 -0600 (CST) Resent-From:debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 21:22:44 -0500 From: Mark Grieveson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian List debian-user@lists.debian.org OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software...added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release...it likely will drive choice of distribution/version I'm pretty tired of reading about OpenOffice 2.0. I still prefer WordPerfect 6.1, to be honest, and it was released years ago. What is it with Linux word processors that they can't have a grammar check? Heck, WordPerfect 6.1 was released ages ago with one. But I digress. To my main point: I'm a desktop user, not a programmer, and I had no problem installing the oh-so-special OpenOffice 2.0 on my Sarge-running computer. So, my question is, what is all this fuss about? Installing OpenOffice 2.0 on Sarge is a breeze. Stop whining about nothing. And now back to my first digression: I realize that Abiword's latest has a grammar check (coincidentally, I also had no problem installing the latest Abiword on Sarge, which means anyone could install it, the newest of the new, on Sarge). However, it fell far short of WordPerfect 6.1's Grammatik (released just as mankind was picking up sticks and learning to beat the Monolith, I believe). Likewise, Diction, a Unix tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first realized the significance of having an opposable digit? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..i agree completely . i too am fed up with the fuss about and around openoffice.2.0. is very aesy to install if 'you' know anything about dpkg, debian etc. i used 10 years ago wp5.1. never found a better and more democratic 'tekstverwerker' after although openoffice 2.0 runs smooth. steef -- steef van duin journalist, publicist groningen, netherlands -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Scott wrote: Kent West wrote: 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the desktop user. It's also why I'll never run stable I don't believe that the average desktop user requires the latest software. Sarge is a perfectly functional and exceptionally stable system an adequately simple user interface. However, I am not currently using sarge, and this of course has its reasons. It is simply what I am used to, which is GNOME = 2.10, especially with its automounting features. So, I am using ubuntu for the time being because I got fed up with using sid for everything that worked on sid and resorting o stable for the rest. ubuntu provides me with a reasonable amount of stability and gnome's automounting feature which I have grown to love. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 01:09:10PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote: Version 1 has perfectly adequate support for linking to databases. Where you presumably mean barely usable support if you're already a database expert? At least that's what *I* have. In the time that you spent composing that post, you could have searched the list archives and learnt how to install it. I doubt you could have created any impressive documents in that time. Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway? -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
BTW, I think Sarge is more than just usable for desktops right now. What I fear as a long-time Debian user is that it'll have plenty of time to BECOME obsolete, because Etch won't be released until 2010 or something. If Etch goes frozen by June of next year, the stable-only policy makes perfect sense. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Antony Gelberg wrote: Help yourself out by reading the debian-security-announce list. That one I subbed to when I noticed it was there. Also available on Usenet as linux.debian.announce.security (yes, the words are swapped which is confusing). Also read follow-ups and other discussion on debian-security / linux.debian.security. Thanks for that tip. I also trust that as you're running unstable, you are following debian-devel-announce / linux.debian.announce.devel. I am now. ;-) Thanks! -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Antony Gelberg wrote: Scott wrote: How about some more noise. The full and correct URL please? Is this perhaps what you meant?: http://www.debian.org/doc/ http://www.debian.org/releases Thanks! I'd actually seen that before but had forgotten where. :-) It's nice to review again. I picked up more information this time. -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On 11/13/05, Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Brockway wrote: It's normal for the Debian security team to backport changes into the existing code base in Debian. Thus I expect the Firefox 1.04 to be the vanilla source 1.04 plus backported security fixes. This is a _good_ thing as it means less changes on an update. This is one of the strengths of the Debian approach. Perhaps, but it's also confusing to anyone coming to Debian from another Linux distro. Let's just hope they *properly* update the user agent string.. I say, that approach is fine, but why not show the right freakin version number? Even if they didn't have to backport, patching would be simpler than starting over from scratch anyway.Heck the next version of Firefox will do it that way anyway (assuming one is using a version downloaded from Mozilla, that is). There's actually a very good reason. If the version number is 1.0.4-[patchlevel], it's reasonable to assume that the extensions and plugins API/ABI hasn't changed. I don't recall there being a change between 1.0.4 and 1.0.7, but there *might* have been. Also, sarge is getting the security patches, not necessarily all of the feature patches. Imagine the nightmare of trying to figure out via the Mozilla forums why feature X doesn't work in your installation of 1.0.7 when what you really have is 1.0.4+backported security fixes from .5, .6, and .7. In short, the patched version of Firefox in sarge is *not* 1.0.7, so calling it 1.0.7 would be a mistake. -- Michael A. Marsh http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~mmarsh http://mamarsh.blogspot.com
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Carl Fink wrote: On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 01:09:10PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote: In the time that you spent composing that post, you could have searched the list archives and learnt how to install it. I doubt you could have created any impressive documents in that time. Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway? That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone certainly has different needs in applications. Paul Scott -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]
steef [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i used 10 years ago wp5.1. never found a better Get dosemu working, find your old wp5.1 install floppies, and you can use wp5.1 under Linux. See: http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/linux.html -- Hugh Lawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, 2005-11-12 at 16:50 -0700, Scott wrote: Kent West wrote: 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the You're missing the point of what stable means. Because I want the latest and greatest, I also use Sid, but don't complain about Stable not having the latest and greatest, because I understand what Stable (in this context) means: unchanging set of software, with only security patches added. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. I need an expert on the pain I'm goin' thru, so I keep George on the ol' turn table 'till I'm over you... Mark Chesnutt, Just Playin' Possum -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 02:36:05AM -0700, Scott wrote: Marc Wilson wrote: if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being packaged for stable. Now that you mention it, Ubuntu used to do this the same way till they came to their senses (and after a bajillion user complaints). You are wrong there. Ubuntu sticks to their guns with versioning for released distros as far as I am aware. Both debian and ubuntu have been forced to ship newer firefoxes as security releases, because upstream's culture is to bundle their security updates with new features in a single release. It has proven too difficult for the existing security teams to determine precicely which changes in a very large changeset are related to the vulnerability, so their hand was forced. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
--- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 01:09:10PM +, Antony Gelberg wrote: Version 1 has perfectly adequate support for linking to databases. Where you presumably mean barely usable support if you're already a database expert? At least that's what *I* have. I intend to use OO Base with HSQL in place of MS Access to *create* (not link) some single file databases used for analytical analysis. OO 2 appears to implement this functionality in a clean and reasonable manner (i.e. like MS Access). This is an important office software function. In the time that you spent composing that post, you could have searched the list archives and learnt how to install it. I doubt you could have created any impressive documents in that time. Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway? Exactly! Any who has used gnu+linux for a while understands the potential danger of going outside one's distribution. (My download is in progress .. wish me luck!) My original point: OpenOffice 2.0 (while not perfect) is an important piece of open source software. IMHO the Debian developers should get OO 2 into Testing soon and create deb packages for Sarge. (And if you continue to doubt the importance of Office software just consider what Office has done for Microsoft.) __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie]
Hugh Lawson wrote: steef [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i used 10 years ago wp5.1. never found a better Get dosemu working, find your old wp5.1 install floppies, and you can use wp5.1 under Linux. See: http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/linux.html thanx! steef -- steef van duin journalist, publicist groningen, netherlands -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005, Carl Fink wrote: BTW, I think Sarge is more than just usable for desktops right now. What I fear as a long-time Debian user is that it'll have plenty of time to BECOME obsolete, because Etch won't be released until 2010 or something. If Etch goes frozen by June of next year, the stable-only policy makes perfect sense. I think you are spot on. One of the reasons we love Debian is the rock solid stability. The discussions leading up to the last freeze lead me to believe most users and developers want a release cycle faster than those in the past. IMHO 12-18 months would be ideal. I really think this is achievable without increasing the work load on the developers (something we can't ask). Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.Web:www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sun, Nov 13, 2005 at 11:16:27AM -0700, Paul Scott wrote: Carl Fink wrote: Why use a distro if you're going to have to manually install things anyway? That might make sense if we were just installing an OS but everyone certainly has different needs in applications. That's why I said distro (short for distribution) and not operating system. A selling point[1] of Debian has been how many applications are available for it. That stops working when the most-desired applications aren't included. [1]For some value of selling that applies to free things. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Scott wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Scott wrote: And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE 4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from sticking with Debian stable You still misunderstand. The point is there is no one standing there with a gun to their head forcing said people to stick to stable. *NO ONE*. Considering I'm *not* running stable, I understand perfectly. Where have I implied I was? Where did I imply you had said you were? My response was to your general statement that people would shy away from Debian stable. I responded that people don't have a gun to their head forcing them to remain on stable. Never once were you mentioned. What Debian (or SOMEBODY please) needs is a new stable release at least once a year with security updates, bugfixes AND *major* software package (i.e 1.5 to 2.0, 3.6-4.0) updates to that release as the next release is being simultaneously developed. Nope, stable is stable. Stable let's you know there's a very solid base. It is up to the users to then upgrade packages as they so desire. It's isn't like there aren't 4 repositories that I can think of off the top of my head to achieve just this. Wait, there is one I can think of, but unfortunately they utilize this software called YUM and hand have a gazillion packages but Debian has a gazillion and a half. Funny, mine don't. testing unstable apt-get.org (for backports) volitile -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Jon Dowland wrote: I think quite a lot of people are very happy to use stable on desktop systems. Most people who aren't are not typical desktop users themselves, but geeks or enthusiasts who want new-fangled stuff. For day-to-day office tasks and the like, a rock-solid base, where the layout of buttons etc. doesn't change every other week, is infinitely more desirable. Anecdotal evidence to suppoort that; my dad. In the past several years I've bounced around email clients. Name it and chances are I've run it. TBird, sylpheed-claws, KMail, mutt, Evolution, Squirrelmail, elmo, pine, Pegasus, Lookout! and a slew of others I've forgotten. Every few months I poke and different email clients hoping to find something closer to my ideal. I'm always looking for better. My dad, in that same time, has used one client. PMMail. He started on PMMail/2 back when I was big into OS/2 and PMMail/2. When OS/2, for all intents and purposes died, he moved to PMMail98 on Windows 98. He's since upgraded to PMMail2000 which is just a minor bugfix and rebranding to a company that bought it and promptly never supported it. He's using an email client who's core was written over a decade ago and is happy with it. So much so that as much as I try to get him to move over to TBird, the closest to PMMail in functionality and interface, he won't budge. Not even the promise of built-in Bayesian spam protection can sway him. In the end Stable should remain precisely because noone else is doing it the Debian way. To say it is a failure and insist it should do things differently is to ignore that for certain people it is a success and it does have benefits. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Mark Crean wrote: I also run SuSE and have done for a few years now. It is normally every bit as stable as Debian Stable and security updates are often faster as well. This of course feeds into the misconception of Stable. It's like free software where people had to constantly say Free as in open source, and free as in free beer. Debian stable is about stability in the programs don't crash sense but it was named mainly for the programs don't *change* sense. So no, SUSE as you describe it is not every bit as stable as Debian Stable. It changes, Debian Stable does not. Some of the comments on here about folks deserving everything they get and so forth if they do not run Stable are highly unattractive and reinforce negative attitudes about Debian. Since I'd like to make Debian my OS from here on in, this pains me. It's not the negative, it's the truth. It also cuts both ways. People who lament the fact that Stable doesn't have newer software get what they deserve by riding Stable; older software that doesn't change. If they want changing software, they ride unstable and, again, get what they deserve. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
A few general questions from a Debian newbie
I have been running Debian Stable on a PC and Debian Testing on a PC for a few months. All is well. I have a few questions: 1- Compared to Debian Stable, Debian Testing has many more programs on the Gnome menu (many without icons). Will the next Stable release retain all these menu items? Or, will the next stable release retain a smaller list of menu selections like the current stable release? 2- Is there a tool that can be used to edit the Gnome 2.10 menu in Debian Testing? If not where can I find the underlying files? I want to hide or remove most of the KDE applications. 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? Thanks to anyone who can help get this newbie up to speed. __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Bruce Hohl wrote: I have been running Debian Stable on a PC and Debian Testing on a PC for a few months. All is well. I have a few questions: 1- Compared to Debian Stable, Debian Testing has many more programs on the Gnome menu (many without icons). Will the next Stable release retain all these menu items? Or, will the next stable release retain a smaller list of menu selections like the current stable release? I suspect the difference is that you have more apps installed on the Testing box than you do on the Stable box. You might can install those apps on the Stable box and see their icons appear. Otherwise, as long as the apps don't disappear out of Testing by the time Testing becomes Stable, then yes, the next Stable release will retain all these menu items. 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 07:56:18AM -0800, Bruce Hohl wrote: 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? OpenOffice.org 2 will never be added to Debian stable. Instead, the next time there is a stable release (Etch), OpenOffice.org 2 will be included. -- Marc Wilson | * CosmicRay wishes he had some strippers here [EMAIL PROTECTED] | CosmicRay err, wire strippers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, 2005-11-12 at 10:13 -0600, Kent West wrote: Bruce Hohl wrote: [snip] 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. Clarification: When etch transitions from Testing to Stable, all the packages (including, by that time, OpenOffice.org 2) will stay in etch/Stable. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. It is inexcusable for scientists to torture animals; let them make their experiments on politicians and journalists. Henrik Ibsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Kent West wrote: 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the desktop user. It's also why I'll never run stable At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for the next stable release. And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several months. They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release. But then, Fedora has that nasty YUM stuff. APT kicks the pants off of it (at least in the speed department). And that my friends is what brought me to Debian etch/sid. Stay tuned... -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Marc Wilson wrote: On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 07:56:18AM -0800, Bruce Hohl wrote: 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? OpenOffice.org 2 will never be added to Debian stable. Instead, the next time there is a stable release (Etch), OpenOffice.org 2 will be included. And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE 4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from sticking with Debian stable -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Antony Gelberg wrote: snip http://www.debian.doc/releases might help you understand how releases work in Debian. One of these days I'll get it right. s/doc/org and apologies for the noise. How about some more noise. The full and correct URL please? Is this perhaps what you meant?: http://www.debian.org/doc/ -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the desktop user. It's also why I'll never run stable. At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for the next stable release. And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several months. They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release. And that my friends is what brought me to Debian etch/sid. OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software. So important that for many desktop users like myself it likely will drive choice of distribution/version. I changed one PC to Ubuntu 5.10 for OO 2.0. I hope that OO 2.0 will be available for Testing soon. __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Scott wrote: Kent West wrote: 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the desktop user. It's also why I'll never run stable At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for the next stable release. And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several months. They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release. But then, Fedora has that nasty YUM stuff. APT kicks the pants off of it (at least in the speed department). And that my friends is what brought me to Debian etch/sid. Stay tuned... Whether it is a flaw for the desktop user is relative to who the user is. It's not a flaw in Debian stable. Debian's stable is for people who don't really care about the next version of anything (security updates excepted), because the software they have allows them to do the work they need done. The beauty of stable is that it is predictable and solid as a rock, not that it is shiny and new. stable is not for folks who have version envy. I spent about year using various versions of Fedora Core because I needed the latest versions of *. I finally realized that I was wasting a great deal of time upgrading perfectly useful software for no reason, and fixing the bugs that were being introduced with each upgrade. That's great if I'm involved in helping the distribution developers, but not so great if I'm just trying to get work done. That is why I don't care about Fedora's and Ubuntu's 6-month cycle. My Debian stable computers do all the things that I need them to do right now. Aside from security updates, what do I need a new version of xmms or OpenOffice for? Of course, the great thing is that we all have a choice! -- Mitch Wiedemann Webmaster - Ithaca Free Software Association http://ithacafreesoftware.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott wrote: And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE 4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from sticking with Debian stable I think most people want a faster stable release cycle (though not as fast as many distros). This will mitigate the desire of users to use other distros for more up to date software. We shall see whether or not this will happen of course :) I certainly hope the release cycle can be sped up to 12-18 months. Cheers, Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.Web:www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software...added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release...it likely will drive choice of distribution/version I'm pretty tired of reading about OpenOffice 2.0. I still prefer WordPerfect 6.1, to be honest, and it was released years ago. What is it with Linux word processors that they can't have a grammar check? Heck, WordPerfect 6.1 was released ages ago with one. But I digress. To my main point: I'm a desktop user, not a programmer, and I had no problem installing the oh-so-special OpenOffice 2.0 on my Sarge-running computer. So, my question is, what is all this fuss about? Installing OpenOffice 2.0 on Sarge is a breeze. Stop whining about nothing. And now back to my first digression: I realize that Abiword's latest has a grammar check (coincidentally, I also had no problem installing the latest Abiword on Sarge, which means anyone could install it, the newest of the new, on Sarge). However, it fell far short of WordPerfect 6.1's Grammatik (released just as mankind was picking up sticks and learning to beat the Monolith, I believe). Likewise, Diction, a Unix tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first realized the significance of having an opposable digit? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Grammer Checkers was Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 09:22:44PM -0500, Mark Grieveson wrote: And now back to my first digression: I realize that Abiword's latest has a grammar check (coincidentally, I also had no problem installing the latest Abiword on Sarge, which means anyone could install it, the newest of the new, on Sarge). However, it fell far short of WordPerfect 6.1's Grammatik (released just as mankind was picking up sticks and learning to beat the Monolith, I believe). Likewise, Diction, a Unix tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first realized the significance of having an opposable digit? Because no one has volunteered to write a free one that you, Mark Grieveson, like. Personally I think they're all useless and stupid. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be. -Bruce Tognazzini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Bruce Hohl wrote: 3- OpenOffice 2 was recently added to Debian Unstable. Is it likely that OpenOffice 2 will be added to Debian Stable. If so when? No. Stable does not get new packages, other than bug/security fixes and the like. And that my friends, is Debian's biggest flaw when it comes to the desktop user. It's also why I'll never run stable. At least Ubuntu promises you won't have to wait more than 6 months for the next stable release. And there's Fedora Core, who's latest release has been out for several months. They added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release. And that my friends is what brought me to Debian etch/sid. OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software. So important that for many desktop users like myself it likely will drive choice of distribution/version. I changed one PC to Ubuntu 5.10 for OO 2.0. I hope that OO 2.0 will be available for Testing soon. Well at least with OpenOffice.org, you can just download the software from them directly but then... You lose the tweaks that most Linux distributions add (like better integration with GNOME and KDE). The same is true for Firefox (at least the GNOME integration part). And in many cases you lose the advantage of the program you downloaded not being in package format (e.g. deb or rpm). That was one of my motivations to try Debian sid out. I figured with testing/unstable I'd have a better chance of seeing my favorite packages in Debian packages sooner, rather than later. I was running Ubuntu 5.10 last week and had installed OOo 2.0. At the time it wasn't in any official repo yet, but an Ubuntu developer had it on his site. There are links listed that you can add to your sources.list file. I don't think it will show up in an Ubuntu repo till it gets to Breezy Backports (and that just barely opened or till Ubuntu 6.04 is released. See http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012520.html for details. Ok now back to Debian. ;-) I was absolutely blown away by this: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ I'm rather surprised to see this. Why? Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been due to security issues. http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/ It's *especially* true with the latest version. OK, Debian developers, help me out on this one will ya? ;-) -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Scott wrote: I was absolutely blown away by this: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ I'm rather surprised to see this. Why? Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been due to security issues. Following the link you gave, I get to a file such as mozilla-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge5_i386.deb, I'm not entirely sure what the '-2' part means, but the 'sarge5' refers to this being the fifth security update the the 1.0.4[-2] package. At least, that's how I understand it :) HTH - -ol - -- I will live forever, or die trying. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDdrZEOq/GuNpXGggRAi7QAJ4hvCfNzRk1JPShIX/2NVzxUG288QCgn2Vy YV8XMVht9bh6wKvV2uJDHfg= =Tp/F -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
OpenOffice 2.0 is an important piece of software...added OpenOffice.org 2, to their updates repository shortly after it's release...it likely will drive choice of distribution/version To my main point: I'm a desktop user, not a programmer, and I had no problem installing the oh-so-special OpenOffice 2.0 on my Sarge-running computer. So, my question is, what is all this fuss about? Installing OpenOffice 2.0 on Sarge is a breeze. Stop whining about nothing. What is so special about OpenOffice? Let me speak from my point of view as a manager at a business and advocate of open source software ... OpenOffice is free, multi-platform, has a large user base, and is of good quality. Thus, I had it installed on about 10 PCs for regular business where I work. All the other PCs have MS Office installed. I would not have done this with any of the other MS Office alternatives. What is so special about OO 2.0. It has improved filters for MS Office file formats (a defacto standard). And, OO 2.0 now includes a data base component which I intend to start learning immediately (after install) for business use. YES, I can spend my time figuring out how to install OO 2.0 on Sarge (and probably will) but I would rather apt-get and spend my time creating OpenOffice documents, spreadsheets and databases that impress my associates. __ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Oliver Lupton wrote: Scott wrote: I was absolutely blown away by this: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ I'm rather surprised to see this. Why? Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been due to security issues. Following the link you gave, I get to a file such as mozilla-firefox_1.0.4-2sarge5_i386.deb, I'm not entirely sure what the '-2' part means, but the 'sarge5' refers to this being the fifth security update the the 1.0.4[-2] package. OK, but they also (logically) have 1.0.3 and 1.0.2 packages before it. So logic would dictate 1.0.5, 1.0.6 and 1.07 following it. I just checked Ubuntu's archive and they have 1.0.7 for their current and all (3) previous distros. And there's no mistaking what version it is: mozilla-firefox_1.0.7-0ubuntu0.0.2_i386.deb Anywho as far as I'm concerned this is moot, I'm not using stable now, nor do I plan to in the figure (unless Debian changes it's policy). If I stick with Debian it will be always be testing/unstable. Oh and why am did I decide to try Debian rather than stick with Ubuntu (in case anyone was wondering)? A) Curiosity B) less compatibility problems with certain packages. If you want full-blown multimedia you have to install some unofficial packages that were written for Debian (sometimes they work on Ubuntu, sometimes not). So I figured well why not just try Debian? :-) Forever in search of the (non-existent) perfect Linux distro, -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Mark Grieveson wrote: [] And now back to my first digression: I realize that Abiword's latest has a grammar check (coincidentally, I also had no problem installing the latest Abiword on Sarge, which means anyone could install it, the newest of the new, on Sarge). That isn't true of all software (the easy part anyway). Sure I can ./configure make make install... But that defeats the purpose of a package management system. Or I could add sid to my sources.list file on Sarge and attempt to install a package from Sid and find there are libraries that are missing when I attempt to apt-get it. Or find that said package is compiled with GCC 4.0 when everything I have is 3.whatever and therefore I practically have to upgrade the whole freakin distro just to add one piece of software. Or it I might get lucky and it just might work after all. You never know... No thanks, I'll stay away from Sarge. I'll save it for my mission critical box... (Oh wait, I don't have one of those. ;-) ). However, it fell far short of WordPerfect 6.1's Grammatik (released just as mankind was picking up sticks and learning to beat the Monolith, I believe). Likewise, Diction, a Unix tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first realized the significance of having an opposable digit? That must have been some grammar checker in WP 6.1. Every one I've ever used in Word (up through Word 2000) sucked. -- Scott www.angrykeyboarder.com © 2005 angrykeyboarder Elmer Fudd. All Wights Wesewved
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 04:55:36PM -0700, Scott wrote: Marc Wilson wrote: OpenOffice.org 2 will never be added to Debian stable. Instead, the next time there is a stable release (Etch), OpenOffice.org 2 will be included. And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE 4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from sticking with Debian stable Which is no one's problem but their own. Despite what the average cluebie believes, software does not come with a magic expiration date. They use something other than stable, they deserve what happens to them. That's why they're not releases. 'Nuff said. -- Marc Wilson | He keeps differentiating, flying off on a tangent. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Scott wrote: And then OpenOffice.0rg 3, Firefox 2.0, GIMP 3.0, GNOME 2.16, and KDE 4.0 will be released within the following month discouraging many from sticking with Debian stable You still misunderstand. The point is there is no one standing there with a gun to their head forcing said people to stick to stable. *NO ONE*. The point of stable is that the *version numbers are. STABLE!* If they want all the goodies they are perfectly capable of moving up the tree to testing or unstable. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, Nov 12, 2005 at 08:33:00PM -0700, Scott wrote: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ Myself, I don't use Crapfox, and therefore don't pay any attention to its Debian versioning, but if normal Debian practices are being followed, security fixes are backported to stable, rather than new and untested versions being packaged for stable. This means that the v1.04 available from s.d.o would have v1.07's security fixes in it. I'm sure you can review the package changelog to find out for sure. -- Marc Wilson | Software is like sex, it's better when it's free. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Linus Torvalds -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
Mark Grieveson wrote: tool, has been around forever; so, why do Linux word processors not have something that Windows word processors have had since mankind first realized the significance of having an opposable digit? Problably because Linux programmers and users have evolved to the point where they realized that the user of such grammer checkers makes one's text read like it was written by a machine. :P -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: A few general questions from a Debian newbie
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005, Scott wrote: I was absolutely blown away by this: The latest official Debian Sarge package for Firefox is for v 1.04! http://security.debian.org/pool/updates/main/m/mozilla-firefox/ I'm rather surprised to see this. Why? Firefox is currently @ 1.07 and every point release since 1.0 has been due to security issues. It's normal for the Debian security team to backport changes into the existing code base in Debian. Thus I expect the Firefox 1.04 to be the vanilla source 1.04 plus backported security fixes. This is a _good_ thing as it means less changes on an update. This is one of the strengths of the Debian approach. Rob -- Robert Brockway B.Sc. Phone: +1-416-669-3073 Senior Technical Consultant Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenTrend Solutions Ltd.Web:www.opentrend.net We are open 24x365 for technical support. Call us in a crisis. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]