Re: Devotee Improvements (Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 10:48:12AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:29:22PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > I was thinking of setting up a FAQ.
> 
> .oO( Why not a Debian package?, then you would gain BTS support, and
> maybe people can help with software maintenance more easily ... )

See Manoj's mail about the package.  The version being used
can be checked by any DD.  It's on master in the
/org/vote.debian.org/bin/ dir.

I'm more talking about having a page on www.debian.org that has
things like common errors in it.  And something that better
explains how our voting system works.


Kurt


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Re: Devotee Improvements (Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results)

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,

The  current devotee package is far too wedded to the Debian way
 of doing things to be useful as a package. It is far too inglexible,
 and things have ben h a r d   c o d e d.

I have a devotee-ng in a rewrite now, that is far more modular,
 and, critically, composable -- so the end user creates their vote
 script (essentially, equivalent to the dvt-cron script of today) by
 specifying what components they want to use (a spooler, to live in
 .forward, or not, in case they want to use a web front end, which mime
 exploder, which gpg checker, if any, whether or not to use ldap,
 notification modules, tally modules, display units -- so one may mix
 and match plugins.

I think that is likely to be usable enough to actually package,
 as opposed to what I wrote under the gun during the 2002 DPL election
 (yes, the election started before devotee  was actually written)

So, I think any efforts to package the current devotee code are
 a bit of a waste of time, but I won't stop people from doing so.

manoj
-- 
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Manoj Srivastava    
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Re: Devotee Improvements (Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 02:35:51PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> Also, something on my wishlist (and the wishlist of others) for years,
> has been a "poll system", which could be used during heated discussions
> to get an idea of what the silent majority thinks.
> Unfortunately, apparently the secretaries don't have time to work on
> that (which I can understand), so it has to be done outside the Debian
> infrastructure.
> Having such a Debian package would be really useful for that.

Full ACK. FWIW, that was actually the main reason for me to propose
that.

An extra benefit, in which the secretary might be interested, is to
give more easily access to the software which is being run to
determine election outcomes to all voters.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
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Re: Devotee Improvements (Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results)

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 14/04/09 at 10:48 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:29:22PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > I was thinking of setting up a FAQ.
> 
> .oO( Why not a Debian package?, then you would gain BTS support, and
> maybe people can help with software maintenance more easily ... )

Also, something on my wishlist (and the wishlist of others) for years,
has been a "poll system", which could be used during heated discussions
to get an idea of what the silent majority thinks.
Unfortunately, apparently the secretaries don't have time to work on
that (which I can understand), so it has to be done outside the Debian
infrastructure.
Having such a Debian package would be really useful for that.
-- 
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net   http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lu...@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Re: Devotee Improvements (Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:29:22PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> I was thinking of setting up a FAQ.

.oO( Why not a Debian package?, then you would gain BTS support, and
maybe people can help with software maintenance more easily ... )

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Devotee Improvements (Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results)

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 01:23:56PM +0300, Kalle Kivimaa wrote:
> Would it be possible to add a pointer to the frequently encountered
> problems to the devotee error reply? This would most likely reduce the
> burden on the secretary during the voting period and allow people to
> solve the problems at their end faster.

I was thinking of setting up a FAQ.


Kurt


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Devotee Improvements (Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results)

[Kalle Kivimaa]

Would it be possible to add a pointer to the frequently encountered
problems to the devotee error reply? This would most likely reduce the
burden on the secretary during the voting period and allow people to
solve the problems at their end faster.

-- 
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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Peter Palfrader]

On Sun, 12 Apr 2009, Wesley J. Landaker wrote:

> > I wish you contacted me about this before so that we could find a
> > solution to get your vote counted.
> 
> Just a comment: if Luigi sent a valid vote during the correct time frame, and 
> it was rejected because of a software bug, shouldn't it still count, even if 
> the problem is not brought up until later, even if you have to add this 
> information in manually or after the fact?

No.  He got a mail saying there was a problem with his ballot.  Had he
contacted the secretary during the voting period something could have
been done about this - at worst counting his vote manually.  Now it is
too late.

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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 11:46:54AM +0200, Luigi Gangitano wrote:
>
> Il giorno 13/apr/09, alle ore 01:43, Kurt Roeckx ha scritto:
>> I wish you contacted me about this before so that we could find a
>> solution to get your vote counted.
>
> Thanks for your report. I did not contact you before, since I oversaw  
> the warning in the first vote report and dismissed it as a temporary  
> issue in the voting software. I really don't mind my vote not being  
> counted this time, it will not affect my future votes. :-) I was only  
> trying to figure out if it was a common problem for this vote, and thus 
> other votes where rejected, or was just my fault.
>
>> I will atleast contact devotee's author to see if we can atleast
>> fix this for future votes.  He will probably want to see a signed
>> message by your mail program.  Since this is a secret vote, I
>> think it's best to just send a new signed message.
>
>
> If Manoj wants to look at my ballot you can forward my message to him.  
> There is nothing secret in my choice for 2009 DPL.

I think he understands what the problem is.  And the ballot stated
what the mail needs to comply with.

I will atleast make sure that the warning about the permissions
will go away the next vote.


Kurt


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Luigi Gangitano]

Hi Kurt,

Il giorno 13/apr/09, alle ore 01:43, Kurt Roeckx ha scritto:

I wish you contacted me about this before so that we could find a
solution to get your vote counted.


Thanks for your report. I did not contact you before, since I oversaw  
the warning in the first vote report and dismissed it as a temporary  
issue in the voting software. I really don't mind my vote not being  
counted this time, it will not affect my future votes. :-) I was only  
trying to figure out if it was a common problem for this vote, and  
thus other votes where rejected, or was just my fault.



I will atleast contact devotee's author to see if we can atleast
fix this for future votes.  He will probably want to see a signed
message by your mail program.  Since this is a secret vote, I
think it's best to just send a new signed message.



If Manoj wants to look at my ballot you can forward my message to him.  
There is nothing secret in my choice for 2009 DPL.


Regards,

L

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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Kalle Kivimaa]

Luigi Gangitano  writes:
> You're right. It was my fault not to check the correctness of my
> ballot, but since I've always used this combination of MUA to send my
> votes I have been easily distracted by the warning on unsafe directory
> permissions.

Devotee is actually a nice way to verify your MUA's compliance when
sending non-ASCII PGP mails. I found out a bug in my Gnus
configuration that way (with Manoj's help).

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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Luigi Gangitano]

Il giorno 13/apr/09, alle ore 06:59, Manoj Srivastava ha scritto:

   Frankly, if would seem that a DD ought o be able to deliver RFC
compliant mails to vote.d.o.



You're right. It was my fault not to check the correctness of my  
ballot, but since I've always used this combination of MUA to send my  
votes I have been easily distracted by the warning on unsafe directory  
permissions.


Regards,

L

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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Sun, Apr 12 2009, Wesley J. Landaker wrote:

> On Sunday 12 April 2009 17:43:36 Kurt Roeckx wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 01:01:38AM +0200, Luigi Gangitano wrote:
>> > Hi Kurt,
>> > can you please report on issue in the voting software that prevented
>> > some ballots to be processed? I sent my vote twince on April 9 and April
>> > 11 and got the following answer back:
>>
>> Hi Luigi,
>>
>> I wish you contacted me about this before so that we could find a
>> solution to get your vote counted.
>
> Just a comment: if Luigi sent a valid vote during the correct time frame, and 
> it was rejected because of a software bug, shouldn't it still count, even if 
> the problem is not brought up until later, even if you have to add this 
> information in manually or after the fact? Obviously one vote either way 
> doesn't affect the result of this election, but IMO voter disenfranchisement 
> should be taken VERY seriously.

What devotee accepts is a proper ascii armored GPG signed mail
 (RFC 2440), or PGP/MIME, which is RFC 3156.

Sending in a non PGP/MIME message  which is magled by the MTA
 has never been acceptable. If you can't use a decent MUA, then there is
 always  

 mailx -s 'My vote' f...@vote.debian.org < ballot.asc

Frankly, if would seem that a DD ought o be able to deliver RFC
 compliant mails to vote.d.o.

manoj
-- 
It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of
opinion that makes horse-races.  -- Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's
Calendar"
Manoj Srivastava    
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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Sun, Apr 12 2009, Charles Plessy wrote:

> Le Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 01:43:36AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx a écrit :
>> It seems that devotee does not properly handle it.

Devotee follows the standards. That means RFC 2440 or RFC
 3156. If you can point me to an RFC the said vote followed, I'll
 see that it gets support.

This was PEBKAC.

> at worse, there may be alternatives, like selectricity (.org), which was also
> made by a DD.

> Unfortunately, it is not packaged…

And it does not do LDAP checks. Nor does it follow the
 constitution as  for quorum and majority reqs. By the time you hack
 that in and verify it ...

manoj
-- 
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Franklin
Manoj Srivastava    
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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Wesley J. Landaker]

On Sunday 12 April 2009 17:43:36 Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 01:01:38AM +0200, Luigi Gangitano wrote:
> > Hi Kurt,
> > can you please report on issue in the voting software that prevented
> > some ballots to be processed? I sent my vote twince on April 9 and April
> > 11 and got the following answer back:
>
> Hi Luigi,
>
> I wish you contacted me about this before so that we could find a
> solution to get your vote counted.

Just a comment: if Luigi sent a valid vote during the correct time frame, and 
it was rejected because of a software bug, shouldn't it still count, even if 
the problem is not brought up until later, even if you have to add this 
information in manually or after the fact? Obviously one vote either way 
doesn't affect the result of this election, but IMO voter disenfranchisement 
should be taken VERY seriously.


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Charles Plessy]

Le Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 01:43:36AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx a écrit :
> It seems that devotee does not properly handle it.

Hi all,

at worse, there may be alternatives, like selectricity (.org), which was also
made by a DD.

Unfortunately, it is not packaged…

Have a nice day,

-- 
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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 01:01:38AM +0200, Luigi Gangitano wrote:
> Hi Kurt,
> can you please report on issue in the voting software that prevented  
> some ballots to be processed? I sent my vote twince on April 9 and April 
> 11 and got the following answer back:

Hi Luigi,

I wish you contacted me about this before so that we could find a
solution to get your vote counted.

Looking at the mail that was received, I can properly verify your
mail using mutt.  It seems that devotee does not properly handle it.
It seems to have to same effect as not undoing the quoted-printable
encoding.

I will atleast contact devotee's author to see if we can atleast
fix this for future votes.  He will probably want to see a signed
message by your mail program.  Since this is a secret vote, I
think it's best to just send a new signed message.


Kurt


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Luigi Gangitano]

Hi Kurt,
can you please report on issue in the voting software that prevented  
some ballots to be processed? I sent my vote twince on April 9 and  
April 11 and got the following answer back:


This is an error report about your vote [record msg00392.raw]
for the vote
"Debian Project Leader 2009 Election"
sent in on Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:47:06 +0200, with the subject
"Re: Final call for votes for the Debian Project Leader Elections 2009"
The message ID is .
The folowing errors were reported:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There was a problem verifying the signature on the ballot.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
gpg: WARNING: unsafe permissions on homedir `/org/vote.debian.org/data/ 
leader2009'

gpg: CRC error; 787EDF - DC3787
gpg: no signature found
gpg: the signature could not be verified.
STATUS:
[GNUPG:] NODATA 4-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


From the report it seems that the issue was not in the ballot but in  
the voting software setup.


Regards,

L

Il giorno 12/apr/09, alle ore 14:47, Kurt Roeckx - Debian Project  
Secretary ha scritto:

The list of people voting is at:
http://master.debian.org/~secretary/leader2009/voters.txt


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Debian Project Leader Election 2009 Results

[Kurt Roeckx - Debian Project Secretary]

Hi,

The winner of the election is Steve McIntyre.

His new term will start on April 17th, 2009.

The details of the results shall soon be available at:
http://vote.debian.org/2009/vote_001

In the mean time the results are also available at:
http://master.debian.org/~secretary/leader2009/results.txt
http://master.debian.org/~secretary/leader2009/results.png

The tally sheet is at:
http://master.debian.org/~secretary/leader2009/tally.txt

The list of people voting is at:
http://master.debian.org/~secretary/leader2009/voters.txt


Stats for the DPL votes:
|--+--++---++-++---|
|  |  Num || Valid | Unique | Rejects |  % |  Multiple |
| Year |  DDs | Quorum | Votes | Voters | | Voting | of Quorum |
|--+--++---++-++---|
| 1999 |  347 | 27.942 |   |208 | | 59.942 |   7.44399 |
| 2000 |  347 | 27.942 |   |216 | | 62.248 |   7.73030 |
| 2001 |   ?? | ?? |   |311 | ||   |
| 2002 |  939 | 45.965 |   509 |475 | 122 | 50.586 |  10.33395 |
| 2003 |  831 | 43.241 |   510 |488 | 200 | 58.724 |  11.28559 |
| 2004 |  908 | 45.200 |   506 |482 |  52 | 53.084 |  10.66372 |
| 2005 |  965 | 46.597 |   531 |504 |  69 | 52.228 |  10.81615 |
| 2006 |  972 | 46.765 |   436 |421 |  41 | 43.313 |   9.00246 |
| 2007 | 1036 | 48.280 |   521 |482 | 267 | 46.525 |   9.98343 |
| 2008 | 1075 | 49.181 |   425 |401 |  35 | 37.302 |   8.15356 |
| 2009 | 1013 | 47.741 |   366 |361 |  43 | 35.636 |   7.56155 |
|--+--++---++-++---|


Kurt Roeckx
Debian Project Secretary



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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 09 Mar 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> >> If someone can't set up a poll, I'll send another message asking for
> >> DDs to privately mail me (or maybe me-too to -vote) if they find the
> >> debates useful.
> > http://doodle.com/nmpesn9t5fwv6ewe
> 
> Having this run for 7 days now, we had 72 participants.
> 
> The question asked was
> "Are the Debian DPL IRC Debates useful and should we keep them?"
> and people could chose
> "Yes", "No", "I don't care, never looked at one."
> 
> and we have
> 
> Yes 34
> No  32
> Don't care  12

Based on these results, my own personal thoughts, and some brief
discussion with the candidates, I'm leaning heavily towards not
expending the effort on a debate this time around.

I think much more could be gained from good discussions about the
platforms here in -vote, and followups with the candidates on IRC
(Sledge [Steve] and zack [Stefano] are highly active on IRC) than the
debate itself.

Also, since Stefano and Steve are in similar timezones, odds are good
that you all can get them to engage each other on #debian-devel on an
ad-hoc basis about the specific questions that bother you
specifically, without having to wait for the rigamarole of an IRC
debate.


Don Armstrong

-- 
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trafficking as silencers are a part of criminal homicide."
 -- John Brown, DEA Chief

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Brian May]

MJ Ray wrote:
> That treads on the singular "they" landmine.  Also, it sounds like
> it's the Debian Developer's validity in question.
>
> How about "Debian Developers may nominate themselves by sending a
> signed email to debian-vote@lists.debian.org"?
>   

How about: "To be valid, a Debian Developer can send a signed email
nominating oneself to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"?



Also see:



According to this page, themself is singular and themselves is plural.

The  pages says "According to
many this is incorrect and its use should be avoided, however it is also
noted to have been in common use for hundreds of years. The issue stems
from they  which is used as a
gender-neutral third-person pronoun, though this use is also considered
non standard. More information can be found at the usage notes
 on that page."

Personally I don't really care - it is up to the author to decide.

I just haven't seen anybody discredit "oneself" for the job yet ;-).

-- 
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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Steve McIntyre]

On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 02:39:46PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>l...@liw.fi wrote:
>
>>While I agree with Ben, perhaps we could retire this, the 12765th
>>iteration of this discussion, in favor of having a discussion about
>>platforms and some Q&A with the candidates?
>Maybe this is a good time to ask the candidates what is their position
>wrt this PC bullshit.
>So candidates, what do you think about this?

Not that I think this is a particularly important issue, but...

My main problem with using "he" etc. as gender-neutral prononuns is
that it sounds really old-fashioned, in en_GB at least. I'm also
unconvinced by the new made-up "sie", "hir, etc. as they're just too
uncommon: they sound awkward and the vast majority of English speakers
will have no understanding of them, making them pointless.

So, both intentionally and by default, I use "they" and "them" to
cover both singular and plural cases. Some people may complain that
they believe singular "they" to be invalid, but I don't care. English
as a language is defined by usage, not by pedants making up and
following arbitrary rules.

There are lots of discussions of this topic on the net
(e.g. [1],[2],[3]), so I'm not going to spend any more effort on it
myself.

[1] http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-the2.htm
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
[3] http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
"I've only once written 'SQL is my bitch' in a comment. But that code 
 is in use on a military site..." -- Simon Booth


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 02:39:46PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> Maybe this is a good time to ask the candidates what is their position
> wrt this PC bullshit.
> So candidates, what do you think about this?

[ Just assuming this was a serious question, otherwise shame on me for
  keeping this thread alive. ]

1) It costs nothing to fix the text for the next time: it is de facto
   boilerplate.

2) It costs nothing in the future to take the request in private with
   the poster, to avoid bothering readers with the 12767th iteration
   (2 more after Lars wise suggestion) of this discussions.

Note how (1) was fixed a dozen posts ago, with Kurt's prompt reply.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Marco d'Itri]

l...@liw.fi wrote:

>While I agree with Ben, perhaps we could retire this, the 12765th
>iteration of this discussion, in favor of having a discussion about
>platforms and some Q&A with the candidates?
Maybe this is a good time to ask the candidates what is their position
wrt this PC bullshit.
So candidates, what do you think about this?

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> If someone can't set up a poll, I'll send another message asking for
>> DDs to privately mail me (or maybe me-too to -vote) if they find the
>> debates useful.
> http://doodle.com/nmpesn9t5fwv6ewe

Having this run for 7 days now, we had 72 participants.

The question asked was
"Are the Debian DPL IRC Debates useful and should we keep them?"
and people could chose
"Yes", "No", "I don't care, never looked at one."

and we have

Yes 34
No  32
Don't care  12

>From that one can chose Yes as a final winning option, but it is a very
tiny margin. And some people did select Yes and No together.

-- 
bye, Joerg
> But i don't think that we talk a lot, as far as i can see, you live in
> the USA.
Australia. Only minor details like timezone and hemisphere but pretty
much the same. TZ is UTC+10 


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Lars Wirzenius]

ma, 2009-03-09 kello 19:37 +1100, Ben Finney kirjoitti:
> Matthew Johnson  writes:
> 
> > How about accepting that "he" is the gender-neutral pronoun in
> > English?
> 
> Because that's not true; “he” is a male-gender pronoun. 

While I agree with Ben, perhaps we could retire this, the 12765th
iteration of this discussion, in favor of having a discussion about
platforms and some Q&A with the candidates?



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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Ben Finney]

Matthew Johnson  writes:

> How about accepting that "he" is the gender-neutral pronoun in
> English?

Because that's not true; “he” is a male-gender pronoun. The pronoun
“he” is sometimes awkwardly and explicitly defined for
gender-neutral use in specific cases, but it's never the case that
“he” is by default understood to be gender-neutral.

The English gender-neutral singular pronoun for people, if such a
pronoun exists in English, is “they”. If someone disagrees, they are
welcome to fight the tide and historical usage, but I think they are
fooling themselves.

-- 
 \  “Reichel's Law: A body on vacation tends to remain on vacation |
  `\unless acted upon by an outside force.” —Carol Reichel |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Matthew Johnson]

On Sun Mar 08 23:40, MJ Ray wrote:
> 
> How about "Shepherds Bush (Central line)"?
>
How about accepting that "he" is the gender-neutral pronoun in English?

-- 
Matthew Johnson


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 01:19:27PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx - Debian Project 
Secretary wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The nomination period has ended and we're now in the campaigning
> period.  We have 2 candidates:
> 
> - Stefano Zacchiroli 
> - Steve McIntyre <93...@debian.org>
> 
> The page at http://www.debian.org/vote/2009/vote_001 has been
> updated.  The platforms for these candidates shall be published as
> soon as they are available.  I'm currently still waiting for them.
> Please send them as soon as possible.

The platforms are now available at:
http://www.debian.org/vote/2009/platforms/


Kurt


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[MJ Ray]

Carsten Hey  wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 10:53:17AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > "To be valid, a Debian Developers can send a signed email in which they
> > > nominate themselves, to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"
> >
> > "a Debian Developers"? :)
>
> How about "To be valid, a Debian Developer can send a signed email
> nominating themselves to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"?

That treads on the singular "they" landmine.  Also, it sounds like
it's the Debian Developer's validity in question.

How about "Debian Developers may nominate themselves by sending a
signed email to debian-vote@lists.debian.org"?

How about "Shepherds Bush (Central line)"?

> (I'm not a native speaker.)

Noted.  Thanks for playing anyway!
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 10:53:17AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > "To be valid, a Debian Developers can send a signed email in which they
> > nominate themselves, to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"
> 
> > this nicely avoids gender issues while not having to use single plural
> > idiosynchracies)
> 
> "a Debian Developers"? :)

"can"?  "lists"?

How about...

In order for their self-nominations to be considered valid, Debian
Developers must send a GPG-signed email in which they nominate
themselves to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org mailing list.

-- 
Luca Filipozzi, Director of Operations, UBC Electrical and Computer Engineering


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Carsten Hey]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 10:53:17AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > "To be valid, a Debian Developers can send a signed email in which they
> > nominate themselves, to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"
>
> "a Debian Developers"? :)

How about "To be valid, a Debian Developer can send a signed email
nominating themselves to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"?

(I'm not a native speaker.)


Regards
Carsten


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> You mean I can nominate someone else? ;-P

> (suggested phrasing:

> "To be valid, a Debian Developers can send a signed email in which they
> nominate themselves, to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"

> this nicely avoids gender issues while not having to use single plural
> idiosynchracies)

"a Debian Developers"? :)

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Per Andersson]

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Kurt Roeckx  wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:11:16PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
>> > On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:53:10AM +, Per Andersson wrote:
>> > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Debian Project Secretary
>> > >  wrote:
>> > > > To be valid, a Debian Developer needs to send a signed email in
>> > > > which he nominates himself to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org
>> > > > list.
>> > >
>> > > Can't women nominate themselves?
>> >
>> > Of course they can.  I will be more careful next time, and replace
>> > it by "the candidate".
>>
>> (suggested phrasing:
>>
>> "To be valid, a Debian Developers can send a signed email in which they
>> nominate themselves, to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"
>
> I only noticed the "he", but "himself" is of course also a
> problem.  Thank you for the suggestion.

Thanks for listening and taking this issue seriously.


Best regards,
Per

> Kurt


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 01:36:04PM +, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 06, 2009 at 06:46:31PM +0100, Debian Project Secretary wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >The nomination period for the DPL election is almost over.  If you
> >want to nominate yourself as canidate you need to send a signed
> >mail to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org list.
> 
> I hereby nominate myself as a candidate in the DPL election
> 2009. Platform to follow shortly.

Your nomination has been received and is valid.


Kurt


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 02:18:03PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:11:16PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:53:10AM +, Per Andersson wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Debian Project Secretary
> > >  wrote:
> > > > To be valid, a Debian Developer needs to send a signed email in
> > > > which he nominates himself to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org
> > > > list.
> > > 
> > > Can't women nominate themselves?
> > 
> > Of course they can.  I will be more careful next time, and replace
> > it by "the candidate".
> 
> (suggested phrasing:
> 
> "To be valid, a Debian Developers can send a signed email in which they
> nominate themselves, to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"

I only noticed the "he", but "himself" is of course also a
problem.  Thank you for the suggestion.


Kurt


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Steve McIntyre]

On Fri, Mar 06, 2009 at 06:46:31PM +0100, Debian Project Secretary wrote:
>Hi,
>
>The nomination period for the DPL election is almost over.  If you
>want to nominate yourself as canidate you need to send a signed
>mail to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org list.

I hereby nominate myself as a candidate in the DPL election
2009. Platform to follow shortly.

Apologies for leaving this so late: I've been unsure whether or not I
wanted to stand again this year, but after a lot of pestering by
friends I've decided I should. If elected, I will be appointing an
assistant to help with the workload. Luk Claes has volunteered to be
that person, and I thank him for that. :-)

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Into the distance, a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:11:16PM +0100, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:53:10AM +, Per Andersson wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Debian Project Secretary
> >  wrote:
> > > To be valid, a Debian Developer needs to send a signed email in
> > > which he nominates himself to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org
> > > list.
> > 
> > Can't women nominate themselves?
> 
> Of course they can.  I will be more careful next time, and replace
> it by "the candidate".

You mean I can nominate someone else? ;-P

(suggested phrasing:

"To be valid, a Debian Developers can send a signed email in which they
nominate themselves, to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org lists"

this nicely avoids gender issues while not having to use single plural
idiosynchracies)

-- 
 Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
  -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:53:10AM +, Per Andersson wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Debian Project Secretary
>  wrote:
> > To be valid, a Debian Developer needs to send a signed email in
> > which he nominates himself to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org
> > list.
> 
> Can't women nominate themselves?

Of course they can.  I will be more careful next time, and replace
it by "the candidate".


Kurt


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 12:53:10AM +, Per Andersson wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Debian Project Secretary
>  wrote:
> > To be valid, a Debian Developer needs to send a signed email in
> > which he nominates himself to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org
> > list.

> Can't women nominate themselves?

Clearly the Project Secretary's mail was a clever troll intended to trick
our female developers into standing for DPL.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009: Final call for nominations.

[Per Andersson]

On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Debian Project Secretary
 wrote:
> To be valid, a Debian Developer needs to send a signed email in
> which he nominates himself to the debian-vote@lists.debian.org
> list.

Can't women nominate themselves?


Best regards,
Per


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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Joerg Jaspert]

> Perhaps someone could set up a poll for DDs to indicate whether they
> find the debates useful or not? [I think Jeroen was doing this last?]

> If someone can't set up a poll, I'll send another message asking for
> DDs to privately mail me (or maybe me-too to -vote) if they find the
> debates useful.

http://doodle.com/nmpesn9t5fwv6ewe

-- 
bye, Joerg
* maxx hat weasel seine erste packung suse gebracht, der hat mich dafür
  später zu debian gebracht
 .oO( und jetzt ist der DD.  jeder macht mal fehler.. )
 du hast 2 gemacht du warst auch noch advocate :P


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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[MJ Ray]

Steve Langasek  wrote: [...]
> I'd like to raise the question of whether these IRC debates are really
> something we should have.  I know Don and the panelists put a lot of time
> and effort into making the debates happen, which is part of why I ask the
> question:  is it really worth all this effort?  What do we get out of a
> three-hour real-time IRC debate that we don't already get from the
> candidates' platforms and three weeks of discussion on debian-vote?

I think the main thing I get is to see whether anyone is a hothead
like I was or whether their first instincts are to ramble or spout
buzzwords, as well as how well some of the candidates respond within
fairly tight deadlines.  Possibly interesting leadership skills.

Even so, I feel we could shorten it quite a bit without significant
loss and I think I've written as much before.  (Put your own joke
about debian being an endurance sport sometimes here.)

The more structured (and time-consuming) Q+A part could happen by
email beforehand, leaving just the moderated debate (questions from
audience) and free-for-all for IRC, maybe as:-

Start at 20:30 UTC
1. Introductions
2. Moderated Debate (up to 30 min, questions from audience,
candidates answer as soon as ready)
-- 5 minute break --
3. Free For All (30 min of insanity, panel questions from audience) 
4. Closing Remarks
Stop by 21:55 UTC

Would that be better?
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Jonas Smedegaard]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 01:57:24PM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote:

>Maybe folks decide who they would like before the voting starts which 
>would avoid the need for anything like an IRC chat or a ML discussion. 
>Would it useful to get a sense of how DD's determine who they vote for? 
>A simple multiple choice questionaire with a few open ended options?

If that is the case, then how about simply voting 1 month earlier :-P


  - Jonas

- -- 
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

  [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private
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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Kevin Mark]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 09:50:24PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:10:38AM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Debian Project Secretary wrote:
> > > | Period | Start| End|
> > > |+--+|
> > > | Nomination | Sunday, March  1st, 2009 | Saterday, March  7th, 2009 |
> > > | Campaign   | Sunday, March  8th, 2009 | Saterday, March 28th, 2009 |
> > > | Vote   | Sunday, March 29th, 2009 | Saterday, April 11th, 2009 |
> 
> > > I suggest that potential DPL candidates start getting their platform
> > > ready. I would like to receive them before the campaign period
> > > start.
> 
> > As I've apparently volunteered to moderate the debate again,[0] it
> > falls to me to remind prospective candidates to calculate their
> > schedule for the week of the 21st->28th, and soon after they self
> > nominate forward the times during that week which they can absolutely
> > not debate as well as times that they'd rather not debate to me. [This
> > will help me to avoid having to schedule the debate smack in the
> > middle of some erstwhile candidate's coffin time.[0.577]]
> 
> > Those who have suggestions for alterations to the format can also make
> > those known in a reply to this message (refer to last year's debate
> > format[1] if you've forgotten what we did last year, suffer from
> > amnesia or are incapable of forming long term memories or faking them
> > by the creative use of google and blogs).
> 
> > People who'd like to help run the debate and/or collect questions can
> > also volunteer with a message to -vote.
> 
> I'd like to raise the question of whether these IRC debates are really
> something we should have.  I know Don and the panelists put a lot of time
> and effort into making the debates happen, which is part of why I ask the
> question:  is it really worth all this effort?  What do we get out of a
> three-hour real-time IRC debate that we don't already get from the
> candidates' platforms and three weeks of discussion on debian-vote?
> 
> All I see that we get is a measure of how comfortable the candidate is with
> (English-language) IRC as a medium, which is just not that interesting to me
> as a factor in deciding who I'm going to vote for as DPL.  Is it to other
> people, or are others getting something else out of this that I'm
> overlooking?
> 
> For the last two election cycles, I've ignored the IRC debate completely,
> and I don't feel that I missed anything.  Am I mistaken?

People gather their impressions and opinions about the candidates from a
variety of settings, contexts, dialogs, meetings, etc. There are various
inputs that folks use:  does the person share my views on (the DFSG, the
GPL, etc.), are they likeable, do they solve group conflicts well, are
they from my country, have I worked with them on a project, did I meet
them at a conference, and a lot of other things. Maybe folks decide who
they would like before the voting starts which would avoid the need for
anything like an IRC chat or a ML discussion. Would it useful to get a
sense of how DD's determine who they vote for? A simple multiple choice
questionaire with a few open ended options? 
or maybe ask if the IRC chat affect their choice in any election?
-K

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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Don Armstrong]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Steve Langasek wrote:
> I'd like to raise the question of whether these IRC debates are
> really something we should have. I know Don and the panelists put a
> lot of time and effort into making the debates happen, which is part
> of why I ask the question: is it really worth all this effort? What
> do we get out of a three-hour real-time IRC debate that we don't
> already get from the candidates' platforms and three weeks of
> discussion on debian-vote?

I know that I personally learn a lot, but that's primarily as a
consequence of having to prepare to ask non-naive questions.

I'm not sure if a me-too thread would be the right way to do this, but
I'd certainly be glad to know if it's something that people find
useful and intersting, because there's no question that doing the
debate consumes at least 30 person-hours of work with all of the
participants. [And I could easily spend the 5-6 hours that it takes me
to do them making debbugs better.]

Perhaps someone could set up a poll for DDs to indicate whether they
find the debates useful or not? [I think Jeroen was doing this last?]

If someone can't set up a poll, I'll send another message asking for
DDs to privately mail me (or maybe me-too to -vote) if they find the
debates useful.


Don Armstrong

-- 
"I was thinking seven figures," he said, "but I would have taken a
hundred grand. I'm not a greedy person." [All for a moldy bottle of
tropicana.]
 -- Sammi Hadzovic [in Andy Newman's 2003/02/14 NYT article.]
 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/14/nyregion/14EYEB.html

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:10:38AM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Debian Project Secretary wrote:
> > | Period | Start| End|
> > |+--+|
> > | Nomination | Sunday, March  1st, 2009 | Saterday, March  7th, 2009 |
> > | Campaign   | Sunday, March  8th, 2009 | Saterday, March 28th, 2009 |
> > | Vote   | Sunday, March 29th, 2009 | Saterday, April 11th, 2009 |

> > I suggest that potential DPL candidates start getting their platform
> > ready. I would like to receive them before the campaign period
> > start.

> As I've apparently volunteered to moderate the debate again,[0] it
> falls to me to remind prospective candidates to calculate their
> schedule for the week of the 21st->28th, and soon after they self
> nominate forward the times during that week which they can absolutely
> not debate as well as times that they'd rather not debate to me. [This
> will help me to avoid having to schedule the debate smack in the
> middle of some erstwhile candidate's coffin time.[0.577]]

> Those who have suggestions for alterations to the format can also make
> those known in a reply to this message (refer to last year's debate
> format[1] if you've forgotten what we did last year, suffer from
> amnesia or are incapable of forming long term memories or faking them
> by the creative use of google and blogs).

> People who'd like to help run the debate and/or collect questions can
> also volunteer with a message to -vote.

I'd like to raise the question of whether these IRC debates are really
something we should have.  I know Don and the panelists put a lot of time
and effort into making the debates happen, which is part of why I ask the
question:  is it really worth all this effort?  What do we get out of a
three-hour real-time IRC debate that we don't already get from the
candidates' platforms and three weeks of discussion on debian-vote?

All I see that we get is a measure of how comfortable the candidate is with
(English-language) IRC as a medium, which is just not that interesting to me
as a factor in deciding who I'm going to vote for as DPL.  Is it to other
people, or are others getting something else out of this that I'm
overlooking?

For the last two election cycles, I've ignored the IRC debate completely,
and I don't feel that I missed anything.  Am I mistaken?

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[MJ Ray]

Don Armstrong  wrote:
> People who'd like to help run the debate and/or collect questions can
> also volunteer with a message to -vote.

I'd like to do either, as previous years.

Regards,
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:10:38AM -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
> 1.618: Yes, for some reason I've adopted irrational footnote
> numbering. Don't ask why.[2.718]

Actually, no.

As long as you are bound to write them in finite space using decimal
notation, your footnotes still look like terribly rational:
[1618/1000], [2718/1000] (I didn't bother to normalize).

SCNR :-P :-D

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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DPL Debates [Re: Debian Project Leader Election 2009]

[Don Armstrong]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Debian Project Secretary wrote:
> | Period | Start| End|
> |+--+|
> | Nomination | Sunday, March  1st, 2009 | Saterday, March  7th, 2009 |
> | Campaign   | Sunday, March  8th, 2009 | Saterday, March 28th, 2009 |
> | Vote   | Sunday, March 29th, 2009 | Saterday, April 11th, 2009 |
> 
> I suggest that potential DPL candidates start getting their platform
> ready. I would like to receive them before the campaign period
> start.

As I've apparently volunteered to moderate the debate again,[0] it
falls to me to remind prospective candidates to calculate their
schedule for the week of the 21st->28th, and soon after they self
nominate forward the times during that week which they can absolutely
not debate as well as times that they'd rather not debate to me. [This
will help me to avoid having to schedule the debate smack in the
middle of some erstwhile candidate's coffin time.[0.577]]

Those who have suggestions for alterations to the format can also make
those known in a reply to this message (refer to last year's debate
format[1] if you've forgotten what we did last year, suffer from
amnesia or are incapable of forming long term memories or faking them
by the creative use of google and blogs).

People who'd like to help run the debate and/or collect questions can
also volunteer with a message to -vote.


Don Armstrong

0: I know I should heed my major professor's most important lesson
learned from his military service: never be first, never be last,
never volunteer... but I always seem to fall asleep before the
conclusion is reached.

0.577: Deity forbid that the day star attack you.[1.618]

1: 
http://svn.donarmstrong.com/don/trunk/projects/debian/dpl_debates/debate_rules_public.txt

1.618: Yes, for some reason I've adopted irrational footnote
numbering. Don't ask why.[2.718]

2.718: Ok... it has something to do with NIH R01 grant deadlines and
collaborators who are incapable of using LaTeX+BibTeX, and want to
make me (more) insane instead. [3.14]

3.14: Imagine a pithy footnote here. I've given up and gone to the
pub.
-- 
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired
signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are
not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is
not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers,
the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a
way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is
humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
 -- Dwight Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Debian Project Leader Election 2009

[Debian Project Secretary]

Hi,

The post of Project Leader will become available on April the 17th,
2009.  So we will be holding an election for a Project Leader.  The
planned timeline looks like:

| Period | Start| End|
|+--+|
| Nomination | Sunday, March  1st, 2009 | Saterday, March  7th, 2009 |
| Campaign   | Sunday, March  8th, 2009 | Saterday, March 28th, 2009 |
| Vote   | Sunday, March 29th, 2009 | Saterday, April 11th, 2009 |

I suggest that potential DPL candidates start getting their
platform ready.  I would like to receive them before the campaign
period start.


Kurt



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