[tdf-discuss] Re: New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"
On 6/23/11 3:40 PM, Marc Paré wrote: > This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of > creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to the "Adobe .pdf Reader". I'm just an LO user, not a programmer, beta tester, proof reader, I just want a reliable set of programs. I'm not trying to "rain on anyone's parade", but I have to ask... Wouldn't a project like this be simply "reinventing the wheel"? (I see I'm not the only one with this viewpoint.) I've just read the entire thread up to this point, and have these observations: 1. Why? As another poster noted, there are already free readers for PDF out there as alternatives to Adobe Reader. As you can tell from my signature, I use a Mac. OS X gives me the ability to read PDF files within the OS files, right out of the box. Of what use would I need another reader for? Plus, OS X gives me the option to create a PDF file as part of the print dialogue. 2. Creating another program from LO means another program that needs support. I'd rather see LO's resources be applied to adding new features, fixing bugs, and streamlining the code to make it run faster. Docx file handling and Base apparently have numerous problems, at least that's my impression from the User mailing list. As soon as Adobe or whomever changes the PDF specifications, LO would have to spend time and resources to fix the code in any LO reader. (And not the first to think of fixing bugs. :-) ) 3. MS has a reason to produce a viewer for MS Office. A lot of people don't have the product. If you send an Office file to someone who does not have Office, they would have to buy it. :-) But, LO is free, why have a reader that just reads PDF and/or open document files, when you can download the entire product, and then edit and make changes? Maybe it would be a decent idea to allow users to simply download the portion of LO they actually need and will use, rather than the whole package. (I see I'm not the first one to think of this. :-) ) There are some alternative office packages for Windows that allow this. Crystal Office is one, and I suspect there are others. Papyrus and Ashampoo Office contain only the most used portions of a full office suite. 4. Someone mentioned X number of LO users. And I would say So? That's no guarantee they will use the viewer. Why would they? They have the suite. I would think the most likely group of users to need/use any LO reader would be users who do *not* have LO installed. 5. LO is not the only office suite out there, especially for the Windows platform, that are simpler than MS Office, and cheaper. Many of them read/write some version of MS Office files. 6. If exchanging files for editing is the goal, and the files are basic word processor files, there's always RTF. Just this user's perspective on the idea of a reader from LO. Size of the Adobe install has been mentioned. On my Mac, Reader 10, approaches 300 MB. Personally, if the document is important to me, I find reading the printed version to be easier than on screen. And I can sit in my favorite chair, instead of in front of a computer. FYI, I hate laptops. :-D This is a late reply, my apologies. But, it appears the Gmane interface is not working for me when I want to post. There seems to be no issue with receiving. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 5.0 Thunderbird 3.1.11 LibreOffice 3.3.2 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Testing
My apologies if this message appears in the mailing list. Sending of messages to LO newsgroups has become intermittent, I'm trying to determine what works and what doesn't. -- ~~~~~~~~ Ken Springer "All progress depends upon the unreasonable person." George Bernard Shaw "Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!" President William McKinley http://www.greeleynet.com/~wordwork/airpage.htm -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Gmane sending issues
If Gmane was working correctly for me, sending a text only message to the mailing list would be simple.So I hope this comes out OK.:-(I can't get sending of messages to any of the Document Foundation newsgroups to work.The message are in my sent folder, but never show up in the mailing list.I receive messages via Gmane just fine.Where and/or to whom to I go to figure out the problem?Thanks.--~~~~~~~~Ken Springer"All progress depends upon the unreasonable person."George Bernard Shaw"Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make forcheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!"President William McKinleyhttp://www.greeleynet.com/~wordwork/airpage.htm -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Gmane sending issues
Hi, Florian,On 7/30/11 2:28 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote:Hi,Ken Springer wrote on 2011-07-29 23:47:If Gmane was working correctly for me, sending a text only message to the mailing list would be simple.So I hope this comes out OK.:-(I can't get sending of messages to any of the Document Foundation newsgroups to work.The message are in my sent folder, but never show up in the mailing list.I receive messages via Gmane just fine.Where and/or to whom to I go to figure out the problem?did you send this message via GMANE, or via different means?FlorianOriginal message and this reply sent via Thunderbird 5.0 after signing up for the mailing list. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Gmane sending issues
Hi, Florian,On 7/30/11 6:54 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote:Hi,Ken Springer wrote on 2011-07-30 14:00:Original message and this reply sent via Thunderbird 5.0 aftersigning up for the mailing list.do you use the same mail address at GMANE as you are subscribed with to this list?I think you've possibly found the problem.:-)The answer is probably... no.:-)Without explaining at my end (damaged a finger badly at work yesterday, and want to keep typing to a minimum), is there a way to determine the email address on file for my GMANE account?I'd bet it's different than this one.I didn't easily find a way to do that on the web page(s).Ken -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
Hi, Larry, On Sun Jul 31 12:39:57 2011, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/07/31 12:18 PM Ken Springer wrote: is there a way to determine the email address on file for my GMANE account? I'd bet it's different than this one.I didn't easily find a way to do that on the web page(s).Ken In Thunderbird, go to "Tools/Account Settings". Select your Gmane account. The email address is listed under the Default Identity for your Gmane account. Yea, knew that. :-) But, after thinking overnight about Florian's message, I realized that the email address there, which is this email address, may not be the one I originally used. It dawned on me that originally, I had originally signed up with the nomail option for LO, and that original address may no longer exist. :-) In other words, I may now be receiving GMANE addresses via one email address, and this message thread via another email address. Ken -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
Hi, Larry,On 7/31/11 1:20 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:On 2011/07/31 1:02 PM Ken Springer wrote:Hi, Larry,On Sun Jul 31 12:39:57 2011, Larry Gusaas wrote:On 2011/07/31 12:18 PM Ken Springer wrote:is there a way to determine the email address on file for my GMANE account? I'd bet it's different than this one.I didn't easily find a way to do that on the web page(s).KenIn Thunderbird, go to "Tools/Account Settings". Select your Gmane account. The email address is listed under the Default Identity for your Gmane account.Yea, knew that. :-)But, after thinking overnight about Florian's message, I realized that the email address there, which is this email address, may not be the one I originally used. It dawned on me that originally, I had originally signed up with the nomail option for LO, and that original address may no longer exist. :-)That would explain why you couldn't post through gmane. Since the address listed in your gmane account is the same as the address used in this post you should now be able to post through gmaneBut, when I signed up *again* for the LO mailing list, I'll bet I used a different email address, and that technically, I've got two mailing list accounts at LO, and that may be part of the problem.IOW, I have one account that is "no email blahblah@unknown_account.net" and one account at "wordworks@greeleynet.comand somehow there is confusion between GMANE, LO, and me.So, if I could get rid of "no email blahblah@unknown_account.net" at LO, assuming this *is* the problem, maybe the problem will go away all on its own. At least, it will be one address that doesn't have to be tracked and recorded at LO. :-)In other words, I may now be receiving GMANE addresses via one email address, and this message thread via another email address.You do not receive gmane posts through your email address, but through your NNTP newsreader. The email address is only used so you can also be reached by email to confirm your subscription and so you can be contacted privately.Granted. But, that's not quite what I'm trying to say. :-)I'm saying I'm reading and responding to this thread using the email component of Thunderbird. But, the GMANE NNTP component of Thunderbird is using the "blah, blah, blah" account for verification. And "blah, blah, blah" no longer exists, so there is no verification possible.Try posting a message through gmane to see if it works. If so you could change your account at LO to nomail.That's what I was planning, but I want to know the cause before I effect a cure. If my suspicion is correct, and I only fix the wordworks address, I may end up receiving duplicate messages. :-)Ken -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
Hi, Larry,On 7/31/11 2:28 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:Please fix your quote attribution. It is almost impossible to pick out your comments in this mess.I would if I knew how And *if* it was easy to do for just the LO messages. I'm not happy with the way TB 5.0 works, and getting close to looking for something else. I loved TB 3.6.16. And it worked the way I wanted.This account is set to use HTML, one of the reasons I want the GMANE NNTP account to work. That's set to text only, and I've absolutely no interest or time to deal with it here for atemporary situation.I'll try some manual formatting and see what happens.You said "But, the GMANE NNTP component of Thunderbird is using the "blah, blah, blah" account for verification." You previously stated that the address listed in you gmane account settings is the same as the one in this email. That is the address used for verification, not your "blah, blah, blah" address.Apparently not. :-( I sent a test message to this group/mailing list via the GMANE NNTP account an hour and fifteen minutes ago. It hasn't shown up yet.However, using the email account works fine. :-) As does a test send to the Mozilla newsserver. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
Hi, Larry,On 7/31/11 6:17 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:On 2011/07/31 5:28 PM Ken Springer wrote:Hi, Larry,On 7/31/11 2:28 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:Please fix your quoteattribution. It is almost impossible to pick out your comments in thismess.I would if I knew how And*if*it was easy to do for just theLO messages. I'm not happy with the way TB 5.0 works, and gettingclose to looking for something else. Iloved TB 3.6.16. And it worked the way I wanted.This account is set touse HTML, one of the reasons I want the GMANENNTP account to work.This list only accepts plain text. If you sent in HTML only the listprobably converted it poorly to plain text. Change the settings inThunderbird preferences to ask what format to send in before sending themessage. I always compose in HTML but send in plain text to mailinglists. TB 5.0 works great for me.I didn't follow your suggestion above. I don't want to turn this into a Thunderbird discussion, but it may be the text issue was being caused by a couple of extensions that I've disabled. Both extensions are listed as being compatible with 5.0, but it's possible the two conflict with each other.I hate being a program's beta tester. Also, this is a cut and copy reply that I wrote, mistakenly, using the GMANE account, not the Wordworks account. And I want to see how it looks, just out of plain curiosity now that I've disabled the two extensions. :-) Have you received an authorization email form gmane to your currentemail address? You have to reply to it before the post is forwarded tothis mailing list. Since you are using a different email address thanyou used to, I suspect you haven't. Check your spam folders.I honestly don't remember, but logically I did receive it and replied. The new email address is the wordworks one, and it's obviously working. If the message has the snowshed email address, then that message was sent via the GMANE interface.PS: Your old address through gmane wassnows...@dishmail.net.Thank you Larry That's the address I was wanting to know! It's the one I thought I used originally. Later today, I'll send an unsubscribe email for that address. I just hope LO doesn't send an unsubscription confirmation email to the snowshed address as that address no longer exists.-- KenMac OS X 10.6.8Firefox 5.0Thunderbird 5.0LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
On 8/1/11 10:18 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/08/01 9:44 AM Ken Springer wrote: Have you received an authorization email form gmane to your currentemail address? You have to reply to it before the post is forwarded tothis mailing list. Since you are using a different email address thanyou used to, I suspect you haven't. Check your spam folders. I honestly don't remember, but logically I did receive it and replied. The new email address is the wordworks one, and it's obviously working. The new address is working when using email to the list. You have to register that address at gmane as well. Since it doesn't work with gmane it is not working there. I've not made any changes at GMANE as of yet. And I've not found the website to be that easy to navigate and/or understand unless you are higher up on the technically non-challenged food chain. This seems to be a common problem I find with open source products as well as newsgroup use in general. PS: Your old address through gmanewassnows...@dishmail.net. Thank you Larry That's the address I was wanting to know! It's the one I thought I used originally. Later today, I'll send an unsubscribe email for that address. I just hope LO doesn't send an unsubscription confirmation email to the snowshed address as that address no longer exists I found that address from posts you made to gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.user . I did not find any posts with that address to this list - news://news.gmane.com/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss I didn't sign up the wordworks address at GMANE as of yet. Going to wait until I know I've got the snowshed address deleted there. LO will send a confirmation email when you unsubscribe. Besides, that will not solve your problem. Do you know if the confirmation email will require a reply from me? Ken -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
On 8/1/11 11:20 AM, Sigrid Carrera wrote: Yes, you will need to reply to that confirmation email. An alternative is, to send a message to postmas...@documentfoundation.org and ask the people there to unsubscribe your non-existing address Thank you, Sigrid. Email request sent. -- Ken Springer "All progress depends upon the unreasonable person." George Bernard Shaw "Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!" President William McKinley http://www.greeleynet.com/~wordwork/airpage.htm -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
On 8/1/11 11:14 AM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/08/01 10:47 AM Ken Springer wrote: I've not made any changes at GMANE as of yet. And I've not found the website to be that easy to navigate and/or understand unless you are higher up on the technically non-challenged food chain. This seems to be a common problem I find with open source products as well as newsgroup use in general. You do not need to make any changes at the gmane website. Just enter your new email address in the gmane account settings in Thunderbird. My info is exactly the same as your screenshot for my name and email address, but the sending doesn't work. The following is from http://gmane.org/faq.php : *Posting* * *What happens after I post to a Gmane newsgroup?* The Gmane auto-authorizer sends you an email. * *I didn't get any email.* Then the address you used in your From or Reply-To headers was invalid. Use a valid email address. And you can't use a "public.gmane.org" address when posting. * *But I did use a valid email address.* Perhaps you did in your From, but your Reply-To address pointed to the mailing list. Don't do that. * *I got an email from the auto-authorizer, and I answered that. Then I didn't hear anything more.* This means that your response didn't reach Gmane. Re-send your reply to the auth message. Also check their posting page: http://gmane.org/post.php *Here's how it works.* 1. The first time you post something to a newsgroup, Gmane spools the message and sends you an email asking you to respond. 2. You press "reply" in your favorite mail reader, and Gmane registers this authorization. 3. Every five minutes, a Gmane cron job goes through the spool of unsent messages, and sends all messages that has received authorization. 4. No more than one message is sent per user per five minutes. If you post more than one message per five minutes, the messages are spooled and sent out later. No action is required from you. 5. If you authorize more than one new group per hour, the authorizations are spooled, and handled one per hour. This is to discourage mass authorizations of groups by diligent spammers. I didn't sign up the wordworks address at GMANE as of yet. Going to wait until I know I've got the snowshed address deleted there. I thought you said you couldn't post with the workworks address. Yes and no.:-D If I send a post using the wordworks email account to the mailing list, it will post. If I send the identical post from the GMANE account, with the wordworks address in the account settings, it does *not*post. I forgot to tell you in a previous reply, the discussion mailing list is the only LO list I've subscribed to directly from LO. All my posts to the 3 other lists I follow were done using GMANE. Except for the very earliest posts of mine in the User list. That was before I found out about GMANE. There is no need to delete the snowshed address at gmane. Just put your workworks address in Thunderbird's account settings for gmane. Yes it will. Your unsubscribe email also has to be sent from the address you subscribed with, which you say no longer exists. So there is no point or need to unsubscribe. I followed Sigrid's alternative suggestion, and sent a request. LO unsubscribe instructions are at: https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Yep, know that. :grin: I did that originally with the snowshed address and then resubscribed using the nomail option. -- Ken Springer "All progress depends upon the unreasonable person." George Bernard Shaw "Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!" President William McKinley http://www.greeleynet.com/~wordwork/airpage.htm -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
On 8/1/11 1:05 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/08/01 12:05 PM Ken Springer wrote: My info is exactly the same as your screenshot for my name and email address, but the sending doesn't work. I didn't sign up the wordworks address at GMANE as of yet. Going to wait until I know I've got the snowshed address deleted there. I thought you said you couldn't post with the workworks address. Yes and no.:-D If I send a post using the wordworks email account to the mailing list, it will post. If I send the identical post from the GMANE account, with the wordworks address in the account settings, it does *not*post. Is the Reply-To field blank? Aye, Captain! :-D It would seem that you have not responded to gmane's confirmation email. I think you are a step ahead of me. I've not yet signed up with GMANE as wordworks. Only as Snowshed. Which makes me wonder what would happen if I put the snowshed address there. I think I'll try and see what happens. Check your spam folders. Does your ISP do spam filtering before you receive email? The ISP for wordworks does, but not Qwest where everything else goes. I get daily notifications if there is any captured email. Ken -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
On 8/1/11 2:40 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: I'm confused. You previously stated you could not post through gmane with your Snowshed address. Now you say you haven't. You're not wasting your time, but our wires are definitely getting crossed up. And, as this is a text only method of communication, it surprises me not. You're a Mac user, how far back do you go with Mac's? Far enough to remember GEnie where you found Atari and Amiga support? I've been watching and seeing this kind of confusion in text only communications since then. I chalk it up to being part of the game. :-) From the beginning: 1. Signed up for LO's user mailing list with the Snowshed address. Very frustrated with a mailing list help solution, and was about to unsubscribe when I learned about GMANE. 2. Subscribed (if that's the right word) to GMANE. Worked fine. 3. Unsubscribed the LO user mailing list subscription. 4. Resubscribed to LO user mailing list with the no email option, and GMANE worked fine for the user list, and eventually added 3 more LO lists to the GMANE account. All 4 lists worked fine for sending and receiving. I don't remember actually signing up for the other 3 lists using the no email option. 5. Then came all the mailing list email address changes, and GMANE apparently choked on some of it. Florian was posting about trying to get it worked out. At the same time period, I dropped my satellite internet service in favor of newly installed fiber optics. (Who wouldn't?? :-D ) Somewhere in this total time frame, sending using GMANE quit for all 4 lists. 6. The snows...@dishmail.net went away with the satellite service. 7. wordwo...@greeleynet.com was in no way connected to the satellite and fiber optics changes. Greeleynet offers dialup service, and I keep it for testing modems in the PC's I fix. And, there are too many people, places, and things that have the Wordworks email address for me to want to try to make changes at this point. 8. I played around with different ideas, could not find the answer. I found GMANE's site somewhat less than useful for the "unknowing in this area". 9. Since I could not post to any of the LO lists using GMANE, I subscribed to the discussion list using the Wordworks email address. When using the wordworks account in TB, posts to the discussion list work. 10. In the GMANE account, I changed the reply to address from snows...@dishmail.net to wordwo...@greeleynet.com, thinking that might work. But, it didn't. No post to any of the 4 LO lists, sent via GMANE, ever get posted. 11. I made no change at GMANE itself. 12. I still receive all posts made to the LO lists via GMANE, but anything I try to send via GMANE goes somewhere other than what I want. :-) The posts are all sitting in the appropriate sent folder, but they never show up in the LO list. I don't know if the blockage is at GMANE, LO, or both. 13. In the end, I see all the discussion list posts in both accounts, but can send in only one account. In summary: 1. I can receive LO list posts for all 4 lists in the GMANE NNTP account, but no messages I send for any of the lists ever get posted. 2. I can receive from and post to the discussion list via the Wordworks email account. That is the only LO list I've subscribed to using the wordworks address. I think I've got this written clearly. :-) But another thing I've learned over the years, never proofread your own writing! LOL And my cat's can't read. :-D Just ask for clarification if something sounds/read strange. As a slight aside, off topic comment, I do wish the Mozilla group would produce manuals the way LO is for the office package. Ken -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
On 8/1/11 6:03 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/08/01 3:42 PM Ken Springer wrote: You're a Mac user, how far back do you go with Mac's? I switched to a Mac five years ago and will never go back to the dark side. Ditto, although I keep inching towards doing some experimenting with a Linux distro or two. But, that's low on the priority list at the moment. Since OS X is based on Unix/Linux, it could help me learn the "behind they curtains" aspects of OS X. Mail sent from unsubscribed posters goes to the moderators and may then be posted. No guaranties though. And since everyone is a volunteer... :-( With a new address you should receive a confirmation email from Gmane that you have to reply to before the post is forwarded to LO. That is why I suggested checking your spam folders. There was never a thing in my spam folder in TB from GMANE, nor anything caught in the incoming mail filters provided by Greeleynet.com, the ISP for Wordworks. I just made a test. I changed the email address listed in TB's Account Settings for Gmane. I then sent a message to this list. I got a reply from Gmane asking me to reply to confirm that I exist before the message would be sent to LO. For some reason you are not seeing the messages from Gmane when sending from your new address. Rather puzzling, isn't it? It still sounds like you either haven't responded to or haven't received the confirmation email from Gmane. It may have been caught by spam filters somewhere before it got to you. That does assume there's no issue at GMANE itself. See below. Here is a suggestion. Do you have another email address you could use? (I use gmail addresses for all the newsgroup and email lists I follow) I have seemingly thousands of email addresses to use! LOL Actually, the Qwest gives me as many as 10 addresses, some of which I used. I've always planned on using a Qwest email address for LO/GMANE once the issue has been resolved. If so subscribe to the no mail version of this list using another address: discuss+subscribe-nom...@documentfoundation.org For the moment, I've subscribed to the mail version of the user list. LO confirmation process is done, now just waiting for someone to post something to make sure it works. :-) Then, I'll make the GMANE message, and change the mailing list to the no mail version. Hopefully this would work for you. I have no more ideas why you aren't getting a reply from Gmane after changing to your Wordworks address. Cross your fingers. At least TB is now doing a reasonable job of formatting a text only message from the HTML replies. Ken -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
On 8/2/11 1:15 AM, Sigrid Carrera wrote: Hello, On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:30:47 -0600 Ken Springer wrote: On 8/1/11 6:03 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/08/01 3:42 PM Ken Springer wrote: [...] At least TB is now doing a reasonable job of formatting a text only message from the HTML replies. Thank you Ken. Your last email is a lot easier to read and follow. Sigrid You're welcome, Sigrid. This is a new test for GMANE, hoping the message gets posted. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 5.0 Thunderbird 5.0 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Gmane sending issues
Hi, Larry, On 8/1/11 6:03 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: Hopefully this would work for you. I have no more ideas why you aren't getting a reply from Gmane after changing to your Wordworks address. Maybe, just maybe, things are finally sorted out. As you probably noticed, I did manage to get a message posted via GMANE to Sigrid Carrera. Although it took a loot longer than the 10 minutes the GMANE authenticator said it would!LOL If this posts, I'll try posts in the other 3 groups I'm following, and see how things go. Thanks for all the help. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 5.0 Thunderbird 5.0 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee bit unlikely. Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply. If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired way. But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the page, even better would be for them to actually write their own netiquette page. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee bit unlikely. Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply. If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired way. Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single style of reading email. I don't think I agree totally. I think their points apply to reading newsgroups, not email. :-) I think the two should be kept separate since they server different purposes. I read my email in a threaded view. Usually, I have already read everything but the latest reply, so, the the top portion of the message is not required (and is therefore ignored). Unfortunately, it is common for there to be so much of the message included, that I need to scroll to view the new text. In other words, it is less efficient and it wastes my time. (to put it into context, I have counted the steps required to get to my car when I leave work by different routes) > I receive a very large volume of email. It is usually less than 1000 messages a day, but, still, the time and physical movements to scroll to the bottom of each message is sufficient to stress my wrists and hands. So, if I can skim the new content in less than two seconds, and it takes me longer than that to even get to the new content, well, then I more than double the time I spend skimming email. The bigger concern for me is neither bottom nor top posting, it is trimming the message if you do not top post. With a top post, I can trivially see the response. "I feel your pain!" A poster in another newsgroup said that to me, and I've been looking for a place to use it! LOL I find top posted posts harder to follow the flow of the message. My preference would be interspersion, since your reply is right below the part of a post you are replying to. Top posting is like the old Karnak routine Johnny Carson had on the Tonight Show. He'd give the answer, then tell you the question inside a sealed envelope. Most of the time, when I read a top posted message, I end up scrolling through the message anyway, wondering "What the H*** is he/she talking about?":-D So I suspect it's not going to make much difference about message length whether you top, bottom, or intersperse you posts, it's going to be the poster and the tools used (i.e. what agent you are using to read the posts) that will ultimately make a post easy to read or not. Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both are using Thunderbird 6. Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on. It takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line. There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full length. It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but lots of replies. At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. Add it to your TB, I'd like to know what you think of it. It may do a lot to solve your issues and concerns. If the author for Quote Colors would make that add-on compatible with TB 6, then replying would be easier, IMO. But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the page, even better would be for them to actually write their own netiquette page. If they care, they should write it. Yes. Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/7/11 6:16 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. Sadly, it won't matter what rules are in effect if there is no desire to enforce them. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/10/11 12:25 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote: ..snip. At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. Of course that would screw non-TB users. Not all of them. And look at the number of untrimmed posts anyway. :-) I wasn't necessarily saying people should stop trimming altogether, it can still be useful. But it would eliminate the writer's quandary of should I trim this or should I not? And, there's nothing to stop users who have software that doesn't collapse a quote from looking around to find software that does. I would think there are dedicated newsgroup reading software that has this feature. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/11/11 10:35 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/10/2011 07:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single style of reading email. I don't think I agree totally. I think their points apply to reading newsgroups, not email. :-) I think the two should be kept separate since they server different purposes. Ahh, yes indeed. You are correct sir. Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both are using Thunderbird 6. Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on. It takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line. There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full length. It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but lots of replies. I usually avoid add-ons because I consider them a potential cause for instability (well, it seemed true for web browsers). In this case, however, I made an exception. Very nice indeed. That certainly helps with all those gratuitous posters. If they care, they should write it. Yes. Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it. Those that feel strongly about it should push it through and do the work. I do not want them to make the decision that only bottom posting should be done. I have no desire for them to do this, I just want people to play nice. Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule, the time will be wasted. I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being replied to. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/12/11 2:10 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 2011-09-10 7:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote: At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. No, no, NO... trimming should still be required. All QuoteCollapse does is spare me a lot of pain when I encounter morons who refuse to trim posts... The inherent problem with trimming is the danger of a message being trimmed to the point where the point of the conversation is lost, or the meaning of the conversation has changed. Another problem is when a new viewer comes to the conversation somewhere in the middle. Instead of having *all* of the conversation available to view in a single window, the new viewer now has to sort back though all the reference messages and try to keep track of which message comes first. I would rather have them available in one place, rather than scattered all over the place. :-) FYI, I see no reason to call someone a moron because you don't like the way another person replies to a message. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 10/17/2011 4:58 AM, Wolf Halton wrote: What gives anybody the right to rag about others' correspondence style, really? If you are doing individual emails between friends, no one really, IMO, other than your friends. And I do have a friend I've taken to task about his random method of replying to emails, especially as it pertains to our efforts to start a business. But this is not email amongst friends. This is group of individuals trying to communicate and share information. In any group, you have to have a set of rules everyone must follow if the group is to function successfully. It doesn't matter if the group is a car club, church group, management structure of a company, local government, examples could be almost limitless. When folks choose not to follow those rules, the system breaks down and less gets accomplished. Forums are a good example of this. Ever read the last message in a forum, then spend15 minutes searching for the message the last poster was replying to? Or, read a long post, and want to try to sort things in that post chronologically when some people have top posted, some have bottom posted, and others have interspersed? :-) Personally, I've got better things to do than scroll back and forth through jumbled posts and long forum threads, which is why I don't use forums on a regular basis. They waste my time. Which is easier to search through, a filing cabinet where everything is organized by some system, or a filing cabinet where everything is just tossed in the drawer? If everyone in a group, like this newsgroup, does whatever they want, you have example two of the filing cabinet. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 10/18/11 11:14 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: Sorry Ken, feeling grumpy. No offense taken, Andrew. I hate spammers! Ditto, as well as thieves. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question
On 10/29/11 4:41 PM, Jean-Paul Ghys wrote: But first a statement !Godammit !It is awfully difficult to get in touch with the LibreOffice Foundation !Remember:"Kiss" !This is not a claim. Just wishng to understand. And speaking in a language which is not my mother language.Can you understand this ?I was just saying - but this ismy fifth try using different email addreses- that :"I cannot understand how comes Sophie Gautier has no mandate whatsoever.To my knowledge, she has always been from the very beginning a very active member first of the OpenOffice community and, from its very beginning, from the LibreOfficeFoundation.Remember: I'am not questioning the votes, just asking a question.Sincerely yours,Jean-Paul Ghys" Hi, Florian, With all due respect, I have to agree with Jean-Paul. I won't go into details here, I suspect such a discussion probably should be on the website list and/or done privately in a design discussion. I will say this... If I had contracted the programmers of LO's website for an easy to use website, the only way I would pay anything for what *I* see on the site, is if the payment was court ordered. I wish I felt differently about the site. :-( -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question
Hi, Florian, On 10/31/11 1:44 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi Ken, Ken Springer wrote on 2011-10-31 17:28: I won't go into details here, I suspect such a discussion probably should be on the website list and/or done privately in a design discussion. I will say this... If I had contracted the programmers of LO's website for an easy to use website, the only way I would pay anything for what *I* see on the site, is if the payment was court ordered. I wish I felt differently about the site. :-( well, I agree that the TDF website itself is a bit out of date and needs work, no doubt. Especially the mailing lists are somehow buried in other content. The LibO sites, however, look much better to me and also reference to the mailing lists. About generally getting in contact with TDF, I think that's easy: www.documentfoundation.org -> Contact -> click on one of the mail addresses This site I didn't know existed! I wonder if the same is true for Jean-Paul. Quite often, in the different mailing lists, you will see The Document Foundation mentioned in a message. I have always gone here, http://www.libreoffice.org/, to get information about LO. And of course, at the top of the pages, the The Document Foundation is listed directly below Libre Office. Try to find a link to The Document Foundation here. :-) It was the libreoffice.org pages that my negative comments were about, not The Document Foundation pages you mentioned. Any valueable feedback is welcome, of course. Regarding the TDF website, I indeed plan on calling the website mailing list soon to rework the content. I've only spent a few minutes on the TDF site, now, initial reaction is, very nice. Although I may have found something not quite right. But, that's for another thread/day. :-) The LibreOffice site should be as well done. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question
On 10/31/11 4:52 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Jean-Paul Ghys wrote on 2011-10-30 00:41: But first a statement !Godammit !It is awfully difficult to get in touch with the LibreOffice Foundation !Remember:"Kiss" !This is not a claim. Just wishng to understand. And speaking in it is not. ;-) There is a contact section on the website, and all our mailing lists are listed in public. Hi, Florian, With all due respect, I have to agree with Jean-Paul. I won't go into details here, I suspect such a discussion probably should be on the website list and/or done privately in a design discussion. I will say this... If I had contracted the programmers of LO's website for an easy to use website, the only way I would pay anything for what *I* see on the site, is if the payment was court ordered. I wish I felt differently about the site. :-( -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question
Hi, Marc, On 11/1/11 11:45 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Hi Ken, Le 2011-10-31 10:41, Ken Springer a écrit : On 10/31/11 4:52 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Jean-Paul Ghys wrote on 2011-10-30 00:41: But first a statement !Godammit !It is awfully difficult to get in touch with the LibreOffice Foundation !Remember:"Kiss" !This is not a claim. Just wishng to understand. And speaking in it is not. ;-) There is a contact section on the website, and all our mailing lists are listed in public. Hi, Florian, With all due respect, I have to agree with Jean-Paul. I won't go into details here, I suspect such a discussion probably should be on the website list and/or done privately in a design discussion. I will say this... If I had contracted the programmers of LO's website for an easy to use website, the only way I would pay anything for what *I* see on the site, is if the payment was court ordered. I wish I felt differently about the site. :-( Let's keep in mind that this is a community run project. If you have any suggestions, please make a list and we can discuss the merits of your suggestions along with you input. It would be nice to see a list of even a mock-up of what you would have wanted from your "contractors". Keep in mind though that we will collectively decide if it will be added to the site through discussion. Make a list and mockup? You should also submit your mockup to the design team. If you have any skills in web design you could even offer to help just as you are doing here. Hopefully, you've read my reply to Florian about the websites and potential confusion if you are at the LO site and not the TDF site. I've been watching the user forum thread in this list, most of which is beyond my understanding, and may post a comment of what I would like to see when it comes to how the whole process appears to an end user. What would a mockup consist of? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?
On 10/28/11 4:16 PM, Cor Nouws wrote: Hi, I noticed that the old users forums from OOo are not available any more. I was not a frequent visitor, but helped a bit with questions (on the Dutch language version) now and then. There was a mixture of questions related to OOo and of course increasingly LibreOffice. I've been reading this thread as it has developed, and will admit, the technical aspects of the discussion are well over my head. My interest in the discussion was not the technical issues of who does this, how LO help areas are interfaced with others, where this or that is stored, but what does the average user discover when he/she comes to the LO or TDF website in search of help. With all due respect to those reading this message and using the LO mailing lists, regardless of how they access the mailing list, you are *not* the average user I encounter. IMO, when a person finally figures out what's going on with the help system at LO, it is the best overall system I've seen in years. (The website needs a lot of help, IMO. :-) ) What I like about LO's overall help system is any individual can access *all* community help efforts regardless of the method of help the user prefers. Although, it's not always easy. :-) If you prefer your help system to be a mailing list, that's available directly from LO. If you prefer your help system to be a forum, that's available through the Nabble interface and Gmane. If you like the threaded type view, it's available through LO, and Gmane, with varying degrees of sophistication vs. ease of use. If you prefer printed documentation, it's available via the various guides available on LO's website. Regardless of the technical issues discussed in this thread, if you maintain the 4 above methods of obtaining help, or equivalents to those options, you will be ahead of everyone else's help system I've used. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question
Hi, Marc, On 11/2/11 2:57 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Hi Ken Le 2011-11-02 11:53, Ken Springer a écrit : Hopefully, you've read my reply to Florian about the websites and potential confusion if you are at the LO site and not the TDF site. I've been watching the user forum thread in this list, most of which is beyond my understanding, and may post a comment of what I would like to see when it comes to how the whole process appears to an end user. What would a mockup consist of? We have had some discussions on revising some pages on the site and the design team is just now getting to some design changes. It may look like the TDF and LibreOffice sites were just thrown together and in part, yes, they were put together in a very short amount of time due to various reason. But, as we are ALL volunteers and help the community with our available time, some changes may seem to come slowly. But changes will eventually come around depending on the number o f people who are able to make the changes. I saw the design change discussions earlier, but simply didn't have time to post a thoughtful reply. I have noticed the new 'banner" at the top of each main page, nicely done. I think one of the biggest disappointment for me, on the LO pages, is all the basic design rules that I learned about in an introductory web design class I took, were not followed. Rules, that if I didn't follow in class, I got marked down for. Sadly, most pages these days don't follow many rules. Guess where I rarely go LOL As we are a very large group, discussions about the website design were taken up on this thread and the design thread. You will have to read back on the different threads about this to catch up on what was discussed so far. More importantly, the design team has elaborated some suggested design changes stemming from past discussions with the community. For example, the downloads pages needs reworking and you the process is just now getting to the point of final review. You can see this process on the design team's whiteboard[1]. You can see some mockups on that page. I checked out the whiteboard, I do like that look. Much simpler, IMO, but gets the job done. If you feel you could contribute with concrete suggestions, feel free to join the design team and suggest some of these on that particular list. It is important that if you are going to contribute, that you do not bring objections to the discussions but rather ideas and positive suggestions relating to design. The designers will not listen nor work with people ranting negative statements as they are all volunteers and offer their help through their free time. BTW, they are an awesome bunch! I try not to rant, although my writing style may read that way to some. And I may try to offer some observations on the design, although those observations may be too late. I try to make my observation,s when viewing something computer related, as if I was the type of user who doesn't even know how the computer organizes/stores files on a hard drive. To be specific, like a friend of mine who I still don't think understands what a web browser is or does. Now that I know what a "mockup" is, that is way beyond my ability to create, without an awful lot of work at my end. The best I could do would be to provide an organizational chart of how I would arrange and link pages, with some comments on the content of the pages. In preparation for the other post I just wrote, I found a problem on the Nabble related pages. I can be on Level B of the hierarchy, click a link to go up to Level A, but then there's no link to get back down to Level B. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?
On 11/3/11 5:19 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hello, Ken Springer wrote on 2011-11-02 22:48: If you prefer your help system to be a forum, that's available through the Nabble interface and Gmane. sadly, Nabble is not seen as forum at all. I don't know why, but many - especially novice - users have complained and do not use Nabble. My wish was indeed to have this forum-style gateway to have access to the same content with two interfaces, but it obviously didn't work out, which is why I am considering a "real" forum. I'm not a regular forum user or fan, I only use them when there is no other option, and Google, Ask.com, and others have failed me. I quit going to MS when they dropped official support for newsgroups. My feeling is, if you have to resort to Google and others to find answers that should be easy to find on an official website, then there is something wrong with the help system on that website. So maybe there is something to a forum that I'm missing. I sure don't see the difference between Nabble and any other forum layout. Are the complaints about Nabble that it's hard to use, hard to find, or something else? To me, a forum is like going to a public bulletin board at your local store, posting a note, then coming back later to see if anyone posted an answer. You leave another note, and come back later to try to find a reply. After awhile, the notes you want to read are spread all over the bulletin board, and trying to find a previous note that relates to something you wrote is just time wasting. I have other things I'd rather do. Which is why I prefer the threaded view of a newsgroup. It's like a well organized filing system, everything sorted and arranged to be easily found. So much easier to find the relevant messages. Whatever happens with the the Nabble/forum style of help, I think a big plus would be to have a way of handling images, rather than forcing the user/poster to put those images somewhere else on the web and then provide a link. That may be something a new LO user may not understand how to do. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?
Hi, Augustine, On 11/3/11 8:12 AM, Augustine Souza wrote: > On Nov 3, 2011, Florian Effenberger wrote: > "sadly, Nabble is not seen as forum at all. I don't know why, but many > - especially novice - users have complained and do not use Nabble. My > wish was indeed to have this forum-style gateway to have access to the > same content with two interfaces, but it obviously didn't work out, > which is why I am considering a "real" forum." > > As a novice user, I made two posts in the Nabble "forum" under the > login name "chimak111". The first was promptly and efficiently dealt > with by Cor Nouys (I'm spelling from memory). And this is a perfect example of what is truly excellent with the LO help system. As you stated later in your post, you prefer a forums format, but I prefer a newsgroup style format. Essentially, a newsgroup format is similar to Nabble's threaded view. What is important, IMO, to us as end users, is the ability to see absolutely all help requests regardless of the format you prefer to use. You cannot do this at Apple. You cannot do this at Microsoft. You cannot do this at Mozilla (Thunderbird, Firefox, and others). At least, I have not discovered any way to do it. I actually just discovered Nabble's threaded view today, researching for this post. I do not use Nabble at all, I use Thunderbird to read the LO mailing lists, because of the things I can do with Thunderbird, overall, that I cannot accomplish if I used the threaded view of Nabble. If you want to know why I use Thunderbird vs. Nabble, please start a new thread so we are not off topic, or send an email asking the question. > The second post may be used to illustrate the current state of the > Nabble "forum". At issue was the functioning of the global menu bar to > "integrate" LibreOffice with the Unity aspect of Ubuntu 11.10. A > couple of responses by "Tom" were to the point. The rest was the type > of thing seen when there isn't active moderation of posts. The thread > digressed to the merits and demerits of Unity, Ubuntu, Canonical, > Linux, and what have you. You wrote "The rest was the type of thing seen when there isn't active moderation of posts." And that is the crux of the problem, as I stated in a different thread. LO needs to have active moderation of posts, ensuring the posts follow the netiquette rules adopted by TDF/LO. As I pointed out in another thread, I think the subject was on top posting, if you don't enforce the rules, why bother to even have them? > The link to this second post is here: > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-3-4-3-on-Ubuntu-11-10-Unity-3D-td3431366.html#a3431583 > > Nabble, not per se but for want of moderation or etiquette, shows the > same weakness of mailing lists in that material is quoted and > requoted, mostly unnecessarily. Then there are the unwanted headers > and footers that just bulk up each post and make havoc in posts > containing quotes and requotes. I think the problem is twofold. Problem 1: In the case of LO, all of the support options, Nabble, Gmane, mailing lists, etc., all access the same database in the background (if I understand the inner workings correctly. So the moderation only needs to be active on the database. But as you noted, there is no one enforcing the netiquette rules. IMO, the rules are nicely done, but inadequate in some areas. That's not meant to criticize the author, I do not know what guidelines he was working under. Problem 2: Lack of knowledge on the part of the user. How many users of the LO help system have ever read the netiquette link at the bottom of every posted message? IMO, LO could do a lot to solve problem 2, but I don't know if that subject has ever been discussed. > I know that moderators are not a dime a dozen, but without strong > moderation, any forum or mailing list can become quite unattractive. > All the same, I'd prefer a forum. > > Here's wishing that LibreOffice and its volunteers all the best. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?
Hi, Augustine, On 11/3/11 8:12 AM, Augustine Souza wrote: On Nov 3, 2011, Florian Effenberger wrote: "sadly, Nabble is not seen as forum at all. I don't know why, but many - especially novice - users have complained and do not use Nabble. My wish was indeed to have this forum-style gateway to have access to the same content with two interfaces, but it obviously didn't work out, which is why I am considering a "real" forum." As a novice user, I made two posts in the Nabble "forum" under the login name "chimak111". The first was promptly and efficiently dealt with by Cor Nouys (I'm spelling from memory). And this is a perfect example of what is truly excellent with the LO help system. As you stated later in your post, you prefer a forums format, but I prefer a newsgroup style format. Essentially, a newsgroup format is similar to Nabble's threaded view. What is important, IMO, to us as end users, is the ability to see absolutely all help requests regardless of the format you prefer to use. You cannot do this at Apple. You cannot do this at Microsoft. You cannot do this at Mozilla (Thunderbird, Firefox, and others). At least, I have not discovered any way to do it. I actually just discovered Nabble's threaded view today, researching for this post. I do not use Nabble at all, I use Thunderbird to read the LO mailing lists, because of the things I can do with Thunderbird, overall, that I cannot accomplish if I used the threaded view of Nabble. If you want to know why I use Thunderbird vs. Nabble, please start a new thread so we are not off topic, or send an email asking the question. The second post may be used to illustrate the current state of the Nabble "forum". At issue was the functioning of the global menu bar to "integrate" LibreOffice with the Unity aspect of Ubuntu 11.10. A couple of responses by "Tom" were to the point. The rest was the type of thing seen when there isn't active moderation of posts. The thread digressed to the merits and demerits of Unity, Ubuntu, Canonical, Linux, and what have you. You wrote "The rest was the type of thing seen when there isn't active moderation of posts." And that is the crux of the problem, as I stated in a different thread. LO needs to have active moderation of posts, ensuring the posts follow the netiquette rules adopted by TDF/LO. As I pointed out in another thread, I think the subject was on top posting, if you don't enforce the rules, why bother to even have them? The link to this second post is here: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-3-4-3-on-Ubuntu-11-10-Unity-3D-td3431366.html#a3431583 Nabble, not per se but for want of moderation or etiquette, shows the same weakness of mailing lists in that material is quoted and requoted, mostly unnecessarily. Then there are the unwanted headers and footers that just bulk up each post and make havoc in posts containing quotes and requotes. I think the problem is twofold. Problem 1: In the case of LO, all of the support options, Nabble, Gmane, mailing lists, etc., all access the same database in the background (if I understand the inner workings correctly. So the moderation only needs to be active on the database. But as you noted, there is no one enforcing the netiquette rules. IMO, the rules are nicely done, but inadequate in some areas. That's not meant to criticize the author, I do not know what guidelines he was working under. Problem 2: Lack of knowledge on the part of the user. How many users of the LO help system have ever read the netiquette link at the bottom of every posted message? IMO, LO could do a lot to solve problem 2, but I don't know if that subject has ever been discussed. I know that moderators are not a dime a dozen, but without strong moderation, any forum or mailing list can become quite unattractive. All the same, I'd prefer a forum. > Here's wishing that LibreOffice and its volunteers all the best. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Just a question
On 11/3/11 10:32 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Hi Ken Le 2011-11-02 18:27, Ken Springer a écrit : Now that I know what a "mockup" is, that is way beyond my ability to create, without an awful lot of work at my end. The best I could do would be to provide an organizational chart of how I would arrange and link pages, with some comments on the content of the pages. In preparation for the other post I just wrote, I found a problem on the Nabble related pages. I can be on Level B of the hierarchy, click a link to go up to Level A, but then there's no link to get back down to Level B. :-) On the contrary, you comments have added to the discussion and brought out some good points. Being able to do mockups is a bonus for people who can throw one together along with their arguments, but words are still quite useful for all of us. We are still reading your recommendations. Thank you. It's nice to know that comments are appreciated. I read a lot of comments in the Mozilla groups where users wonder if anyone even cares what users think. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?
Apologies for the double post, but the Gmane system is giving me fits... Again! :-( I actually wrote and sent the second post before the first post even showed up for me. Note the huge difference between the timestamps. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: user forums ?
Hi, Florian, On 11/7/11 3:55 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Tom Hart wrote on 2011-11-07 02:11: Maybe this looks more like a forum? http://arkanis.de/projects#nntp-forum https://github.com/arkanis/nntp-forum The key idea here is to have an etablished system newsgroup under the hood (for the more "conserative" users) and a fancy webinterface forum (for the "new" generation). So to enable exchange between those two user groups (the author also writes about the ides behind this software on his blog) - and free choice of reader for everyone. thanks for this proposal! Indeed, an interesting approach, as in the beginning, I was also thinking about setting up an NNTP server (which could even interact with the mailing lists). However, the clear feedback I got from users it that they want "a forum they know", i.e. phpBB or something in these terms. That's why I am so hesitant against other solutions, although technology-wise, they would make sense. If the look and feel of a newsgroup server is "a forum they know", does it make any difference what is running in the background? How would that be any different than reading the LO mailings lists in a newsgroup reader using Gmane? It's about the users and their needs, and even if we see things different, we should follow their demands to give them a good experience, IMHO. Exactly, and give users the interface they are comfortable using. For me, it's a newsgroup "experience". I, and I suspect most users, care less what is the driving force behind what they see on their monitor. They just need to have something on their monitor they are used to using, and/or are satisfied with the way they perceive the system to work. I know mailing lists, which I despise and find horribly wasteful for me, are the underpinnings of the NNTP display I see, but I don't care. :-) I can access the content of the mailing list using a format that fits me. :-) FWIW, if nothing else, I would suggest LO look at their own Gmane and Nabble type access to the mailing list. Recent and ongoing experiences with those interfaces for a different software product indicates to me that using third party services to provide those types of access is not the way to go. You have no control over the performance of third party products. I will once again say, that of all the open source programs I've tried and would like to use, LO is far and away the best organization at providing a help system for everyone. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
