Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On 31.01.2016 17:17, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit : >>I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in >> libsystemd0. I have no idea what. > I made some trials. > > On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit > and gvfs. Have you tried building gvfs w/ --disable-libsystemd-login ? According to the code, it's just for checking the current session's seat name against a drive's (none at all is considered a match). --mtx ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Wed, Feb 03, 2016 at 03:05:52PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Haines Brown writes: > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: > > Not having received an answer, > > I answered both of your questions. My apologies. Your message for some reason did not show up, but I managed to find get it. Your helpful reply has convinced me to replace my Debian Sid with Devuan alpha2. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Haines Brown writes: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: >> I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it >> might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and >> systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop. >> >> So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still >> have a functioning Sid system? > > Not having received an answer, I answered both of your questions. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 08:04:26AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: > I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it > might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and > systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop. > > So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still > have a functioning Sid system? Not having received an answer, I went ahead and did it. It had several effects: a) the reported bug that had made it difficult to shutdown the X server disappeared, b) the boot no longer goes over the a higher resolution but remains VGA, c) trying to startx as user now produces error that screen can't be found, d) now the freeze of the desktop affects root as well. I have a choice: re-install Sid from scratch or install devuan. I'd much rather do the latter, but I'd prefer to wait for the beta. So let me ask the question that can't be answered: when is the beta likely to surface? Within a month or so or not likely until well after mid year? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On 02/02/16 22:22, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 02/02/2016 04:39, Simon Wise a écrit : so looking at apt.conf I see as the very first text 'DESCRIPTION' /etc/apt/apt.conf is the main configuration file shared by all the tools in the APT suite of tools, though it is by no means the only place options can be set. The suite also shares a common command line parser to provide a uniform environment. When an APT tool starts up it will read the configuration files in the following order: 1. the file specified by the APT_CONFIG environment variable (if any) 2. all files in Dir::Etc::Parts in alphanumeric ascending order which have either no or "conf" as filename extension and which only contain alphanumeric, hyphen (-), underscore (_) and period (.) characters. Otherwise APT will print a notice that it has ignored a file, unless that file matches a pattern in the Dir::Ignore-Files-Silently configuration list - in which case it will be silently ignored. 3. the main configuration file specified by Dir::Etc::main 4. the command line options are applied to override the configuration directives or to load even more configuration files. Dir::Etc::Parts is in fact apt.conf.d/ as seen by going to the FILES section at the end of the manpage, either with a search for Dir::Etc::Parts or because you know a FILES section usually exists: FILES /etc/apt/apt.conf APT configuration file. Configuration Item: Dir::Etc::Main. /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ APT configuration file fragments. Configuration Item: Dir::Etc::Parts. This is also in man apt.conf, but - call me an idiot - I still can't make sense of it. What the hell is the meaning of the words 'Dir', 'Etc', 'Main' and 'Parts'? Why the hell do '::' translate to '/' ? What document did you learn that "language" from? yes, it was man apt.conf I was quoting, and the syntax that puzzles you is the one fully described in the rest of that manpage. The very next lines after the that overview are these: SYNTAX The configuration file is organized in a tree with options organized into functional groups. Option specification is given with a double colon notation; for instance APT::Get::Assume-Yes is an option within the APT tool group, for the Get tool. Options do not inherit from their parent groups. Between this brief outline and the FILES section repeating the crucial default values there are 800 or so lines detailing each of the many options that can be set in these 4 places ... including the two that have /etc/apt/apt.conf and /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ as default values. You are looking at the document that defines this syntax. It is a very big, flexible configuration ... perhaps it should just dictate 'the one true way' much more and thus be simpler. Perhaps it grew like topsy and could have been more succinct, I don't know. Fortunately search works just fine in manpages, so the relevant definitions are easy to find. Examples are provided, if like me you often prefer them ... they are pointed to in the standard manpage way, at the end, the lines before the FILES section: EXAMPLES /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz is a configuration file showing example values for all possible options. Another point: I'd expect the configuration tool to provide a way to specify a scope for any parameter setting, something which could, for example, restrict the scope of the line 'APT::Install-Recommends "false";' to synaptic, eg simply 'SYNAPTIC::Install-Recommends "false";' Maybe, since Synaptic is a front-end to apt, the rationale is it is also intended to tune apt proper. I admit it makes sense. It's imperfect because the setting is lost if you purge synaptic but nothing can be perfect. ... this is apt. It is being used by Synaptic as a backend, Synaptic calls it not the other way round. Apt knows nothing of Synaptic. Apt does not know if it was Synaptic that called it or some other app or the user. Synaptic has installed a change to the usual apt default. I gather that this is because it has a GUI option offered to set this. It is a good thing that Synaptic sets this in this place, overriding any other defaults but not the manual config file that someone would add if they wanted to configure apt directly. The placement as 99synaptic and the slightly rude neglect of comments is perhaps because the GUI developers assumed their users installed it exactly because they did not want to look at configuration files, manpages or this syntax ever again if they could avoid it. That is why they offer GUI options to change apt defaults, and try to override all other packages doing the same by using 99. Appropriately /etc/apt/apt.conf, which is that file anyone wishing to add their own configuration for apt would add, is 3/ in the above list ... that is it overrides any of the defaults added by any packages, including synaptics GUI thingy. 4/ is the command line so it overrides all the rest, as i
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Didier Kryn writes:
> Le 02/02/2016 04:39, Simon Wise a écrit :
>> so looking at apt.conf I see as the very first text 'DESCRIPTION'
[...]
>> FILES
>>/etc/apt/apt.conf
>>APT configuration file. Configuration Item:
>>Dir::Etc::Main.
>>
>> /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/
>>APT configuration file fragments. Configuration Item:
>>Dir::Etc::Parts.
>
> This is also in man apt.conf, but - call me an idiot - I still
> can't make sense of it. What the hell is the meaning of the words
> Dir', 'Etc', 'Main' and 'Parts'? Why the hell do '::' translate to '/'
> ? What document did you learn that "language" from?
:: is used as component separator in the hierarchical namespaces of C++
and Perl (these are the two I know of). The Dir ('directory') is a bit
stupidly name as it apparently means "top-level configuration section
specifying pathnames'. 'Etc' means 'configuration stuff' (cf /etc),
consequently,
Dir::Etc::Main
is the pathname of the main configuration file and
Dir::Etc::Parts
that of a directory containing additional configuration-file snippets
supposed to be included into the main configuration.
A {}-based notation is also supported, ie,
Dir::Etc::Main
is the short form of
Dir {
Etc {
Main {
}
}
}
The syntax is explained in the apt.conf(5) manpage.
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Simon Wise writes: [...] > If you have the dedication to GUI and the resources of a global > mega-corporation it is possible to make a similar GUI actually respect > the under-lying settings ... but it is incredibly hard work, way > beyond almost any organisation. OSX did achieve this Not at all, actually. It just means the front-end code has to work directly with the backend config files instead of storing its configuration in some more 'flashy' format, eg, xml-files or some ad hoc created binary format and then blindly overwriting the 'engine' configuration whenever the front-end configuration changes. I've implemented something like this in the past for creating IPsec VPN configurations via web GUI while retaining fully editable racoon configuration files in the backend. I conjecture this runs afoul of the "everything anybody else ever did was completely wrong" aka "don't understand a word of it, what a brainless mess" approach people whose experience is inversely proportional to their self-esteem like to take towards anything. NB: That's a perfectly stable condition of wanton ignorance and can be kept up for fourty years in a row. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 02/02/2016 04:39, Simon Wise a écrit : so looking at apt.conf I see as the very first text 'DESCRIPTION' /etc/apt/apt.conf is the main configuration file shared by all the tools in the APT suite of tools, though it is by no means the only place options can be set. The suite also shares a common command line parser to provide a uniform environment. When an APT tool starts up it will read the configuration files in the following order: 1. the file specified by the APT_CONFIG environment variable (if any) 2. all files in Dir::Etc::Parts in alphanumeric ascending order which have either no or "conf" as filename extension and which only contain alphanumeric, hyphen (-), underscore (_) and period (.) characters. Otherwise APT will print a notice that it has ignored a file, unless that file matches a pattern in the Dir::Ignore-Files-Silently configuration list - in which case it will be silently ignored. 3. the main configuration file specified by Dir::Etc::main 4. the command line options are applied to override the configuration directives or to load even more configuration files. Dir::Etc::Parts is in fact apt.conf.d/ as seen by going to the FILES section at the end of the manpage, either with a search for Dir::Etc::Parts or because you know a FILES section usually exists: FILES /etc/apt/apt.conf APT configuration file. Configuration Item: Dir::Etc::Main. /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ APT configuration file fragments. Configuration Item: Dir::Etc::Parts. This is also in man apt.conf, but - call me an idiot - I still can't make sense of it. What the hell is the meaning of the words 'Dir', 'Etc', 'Main' and 'Parts'? Why the hell do '::' translate to '/' ? What document did you learn that "language" from? Another point: I'd expect the configuration tool to provide a way to specify a scope for any parameter setting, something which could, for example, restrict the scope of the line 'APT::Install-Recommends "false";' to synaptic, eg simply 'SYNAPTIC::Install-Recommends "false";' Maybe, since Synaptic is a front-end to apt, the rationale is it is also intended to tune apt proper. I admit it makes sense. It's imperfect because the setting is lost if you purge synaptic but nothing can be perfect. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On 01/02/16 22:47, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 01/02/2016 12:09, Florian Zieboll a écrit : florian@nulldevice:~$ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01norecommend APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Suggests "0"; #APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "0"; Synaptic will override this setting, if the relevant option is checked. Apparently synaptic keeps its config in its own config file /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic. Do you mean synaptic reads all config files in order, and since 99synaptic is the last, it can override all previous settings? I must confess I don't understand how this set of config files is processed; there are quite a lot of files in etc/apt/apt.conf.d/. There's a man for apt.conf, which doesn't exist and no man for apt.conf.d, which exists! the command tool for finding relevant man pages on your system is apropos ... $ apropos apt apt (1) - annotation processing tool apt (8) - Advanced Package Tool apt-cache (8)- query the APT cache apt-cdrom (8)- APT CD-ROM management utility apt-config (8) - APT Configuration Query program apt-extracttemplates (1) - Utility to extract debconf config and tem... apt-file (1) - APT package searching utility - command-line ... apt-forktracer (8) - a utility for managing package versions apt-ftparchive (1) - Utility to generate index files apt-get (8) - APT package handling utility - - command-line... apt-key (8) - APT key management utility apt-listbugs (1) - Lists critical bugs before each apt upgrade/i... apt-mark (8) - mark/unmark a package as being automatically-... apt-move (8) - move cache of Debian packages into a mirror h... apt-offline (8) - Offline APT Package manager apt-secure (8) - Archive authentication support for APT apt-show-versions (1p) - Lists available package versions with distr... apt-sortpkgs (1) - Utility to sort package index files apt-zip (8) - Use apt with removable media apt-zip-inst (8) - Use apt with removable media apt-zip-list (8) - Use apt with removable media apt.conf (5) - Configuration file for APT apt_preferences (5) - Preference control file for APT so looking at apt.conf I see as the very first text 'DESCRIPTION' /etc/apt/apt.conf is the main configuration file shared by all the tools in the APT suite of tools, though it is by no means the only place options can be set. The suite also shares a common command line parser to provide a uniform environment. When an APT tool starts up it will read the configuration files in the following order: 1. the file specified by the APT_CONFIG environment variable (if any) 2. all files in Dir::Etc::Parts in alphanumeric ascending order which have either no or "conf" as filename extension and which only contain alphanumeric, hyphen (-), underscore (_) and period (.) characters. Otherwise APT will print a notice that it has ignored a file, unless that file matches a pattern in the Dir::Ignore-Files-Silently configuration list - in which case it will be silently ignored. 3. the main configuration file specified by Dir::Etc::main 4. the command line options are applied to override the configuration directives or to load even more configuration files. Dir::Etc::Parts is in fact apt.conf.d/ as seen by going to the FILES section at the end of the manpage, either with a search for Dir::Etc::Parts or because you know a FILES section usually exists: FILES /etc/apt/apt.conf APT configuration file. Configuration Item: Dir::Etc::Main. /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ APT configuration file fragments. Configuration Item: Dir::Etc::Parts. so certainly finding this out does require a little familiarity with the linux documentation system, but it is all there and in exactly the discoverable places. There is a lot of information available, tool tips or a few help paragraphs could not come close to providing it. That is why very simplified GUI configurations eliminating all the uncommon settings are so popular. Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On 02/02/16 00:13, Simon Hobson wrote: Florian Zieboll wrote: For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends --no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends. The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*): APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Recommends "1"; This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't. Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha. Makes sense to me too - first entry sets/resets option, next entry resets/sets the same option - the last one taking effect. that is simply the apt.conf syntax ... like many, but not all, such files the last setting you give overrides all previous, and the file is read top to bottom, in a well-defined position wrt other config locations. Any config system needs some rule on this, reading man pages should tell the specific details for a program ... and if (as is typical) there is more than one place to add configurations then the order they are read is also carefully defined for each. For example many tools read the ENV, accept options as args, have a per user config and a system wide default. This is complicated, but I would not want to lose any of them. So it is very likely that some of these will contradict the others. So a definition that "the last value read overrides all previous" makes sense. Then it may be necessary to add some special options to be able to prevent reading some local options. Debian adds to this with a .d/ directory of file snippets that read and included in the standard .conf file, in lexical order, at the same time as a single .conf in that location would be. Hence those numbers at the start of those files to determine order transparently and consistently ... there are debian tools provided to read this directory so that this behaviour is predictable, it is also consistent in many many debian packages. Packages sometimes use a master .conf file with an 'include' copying all the little files, or sometimes do this reading the snippets directly simply increasing the number of available files to configure so that individual packages have one each. Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On 02/02/16 01:58, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 01/02/2016 14:13, Simon Hobson a écrit : Florian Zieboll wrote: For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends --no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends. The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*): APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Recommends "1"; This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't. Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha. Makes sense to me too - first entry sets/resets option, next entry resets/sets the same option - the last one taking effect. As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent repositories to the sources.list. More to the point, it means (in the general case) a number of packages can add/remove their own configs during package install/upgrade/removal just by adding/updating/removing "it's" config file from the conf.d directory. For another example, when installing Xen, it adds a file to Grub's conf.d to add the Xen boot options. Same with various web packages that put a file in /etc/apache2/conf.d. IMO it's far better than trying to come up with some mechanism to *SAFELY* edit a shared config file. It also means the user/admin can add their own config file, and if they name it to sort last then they can override any other default settings - but without impacting on the ability of a package to update it's own file. Once you get into editing the package supplied config file then upgrading gets a bit less automatic. So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have one or two downsides. very much so, on both counts. The only two alternatives are a README telling the user to go and edit certain files before using the package ... unpopular and not appropriate for many use cases, or introduce a centralised API that holds all usual configurations in a database and provides standard tools to read and modify it. This was the Microsoft registry solution, it is also the Gnome solution. It is much more problematic in my view. And requires the kind of API standardisation that devuan rejects. An explicit advantage of multi files over an attempt to make a single point of configuration via an API is the network manager in gnome. Using the GUI will edit the files you would otherwise use for the setting. This will often undo carefully established manual settings. These manual settings are needed even if you prefer the GUI because the GUI only provides the way to set up commonly needed network stuff. So if your network is uncommon you had better purge the GUI since it will not understand or respect the weird settings you need. If you have the dedication to GUI and the resources of a global mega-corporation it is possible to make a similar GUI actually respect the under-lying settings ... but it is incredibly hard work, way beyond almost any organisation. OSX did achieve this (I do not know if they kept it though), but with unthinkable hours of developer time I am sure, it was years of effort even for them. I fully agree that "this is a good thing". There remains one question: On my laptop the file 99synaptic contains only one line: APT::Install-Recommends "false"; If all the files are read by all apt tools, then the setting meant for synaptic applies to all apt tools. If i'd purge synaptic, then the behaviour of apt-get might change. Does it make sense? It seems to me that this file should contain some indication tnat the setting applies only to synaptic. it is in the apt configuration, it changes apt behaviour, it is in no way limited to synaptic, it is some change that the synaptic package felt was needed different from default settings ... I do not know synaptic but perhaps it deals with recommended in its own way and thus needed to tell apt-get not to do it. The name of the file indicates that this is an apt configuration added by the synaptic package. Many packages are more polite and do include comments in their files, where comments are allowed at that point in the .conf file of course! Synaptic and the direct apt tools both use the same back-end, Synaptic makes the assumption that it will replace apt-get for the user so sets apt up to suit usage via Synaptic. It cannot really make any other assumptions, and certainly should undo those modifications if it is removed. And the whole arrangement is a lot!! less error prone than if it attempted to edit an apt.conf file each time. With more effort Synaptic could perhaps leave apt settings untouched, but they assume they are providing the new, improved GUI front end and for most of their users that is tr
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 31/01/2016 23:59, Go Linux a écrit : I must check for default-jre and gimp because both are pretty usefull. Yep, default-jre, default-jre-headless and gimp are installed. If I try to remove libsystemd0, it only requires to remove also gvfs, gvfs-daemons and gvfs-fuse, but, as explained before, xfce4 needs them. The funny thing is that now it doesn't ask me to remove policykit I probably made an error in my first trial. If you do a lot of sound manipulation, this is an area in which I can't help. Linux sound is a nightmare to me and I never found a sensible description of it all, so using pulseaudio by default because it mostly works out of the box. But there was a thread about it one or two weeks ago... Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 15:58:36 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > On my laptop the file 99synaptic contains only one line: > APT::Install-Recommends "false"; > > If all the files are read by all apt tools, then the setting > meant for synaptic applies to all apt tools. If i'd purge synaptic, > then the behaviour of apt-get might change. Does it make sense? It > seems to me that this file should contain some indication tnat the > setting applies only to synaptic. Wouldn't it make more sense then to put the configuration in its own, apt-independent place? I have no clue how synaptic calls apt-get and if it was possible to just append the respective option to the call after the parsing of apt.conf, but the current solution indeed seems to be not consistent. pgpXTgQHRNEuS.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 01/02/2016 14:13, Simon Hobson a écrit : Florian Zieboll wrote: For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends --no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends. The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*): APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Recommends "1"; This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't. Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha. Makes sense to me too - first entry sets/resets option, next entry resets/sets the same option - the last one taking effect. As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent repositories to the sources.list. More to the point, it means (in the general case) a number of packages can add/remove their own configs during package install/upgrade/removal just by adding/updating/removing "it's" config file from the conf.d directory. For another example, when installing Xen, it adds a file to Grub's conf.d to add the Xen boot options. Same with various web packages that put a file in /etc/apache2/conf.d. IMO it's far better than trying to come up with some mechanism to *SAFELY* edit a shared config file. It also means the user/admin can add their own config file, and if they name it to sort last then they can override any other default settings - but without impacting on the ability of a package to update it's own file. Once you get into editing the package supplied config file then upgrading gets a bit less automatic. So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have one or two downsides. I fully agree that "this is a good thing". There remains one question: On my laptop the file 99synaptic contains only one line: APT::Install-Recommends "false"; If all the files are read by all apt tools, then the setting meant for synaptic applies to all apt tools. If i'd purge synaptic, then the behaviour of apt-get might change. Does it make sense? It seems to me that this file should contain some indication tnat the setting applies only to synaptic. Didier Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 13:13:43 + Simon Hobson wrote: > Florian Zieboll wrote: > > > As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just > > > > $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ > > > > without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is > > all about easier deployment (and automated removal) of > > configurations - like hitting some button on a shady website to add > > distribution independent repositories to the sources.list. > > > > (...) > > So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have > one or two downsides. Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to say that it's a "bad thing" - just give an (perhaps somewhat polemic) example of its practical usage :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Florian Zieboll wrote: > For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends > --no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends. > The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*): > > APT::Install-Recommends "0"; > APT::Install-Recommends "1"; > > This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't. > Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is > coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha. Makes sense to me too - first entry sets/resets option, next entry resets/sets the same option - the last one taking effect. > As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just > > $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ > > without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all > about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like > hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent > repositories to the sources.list. More to the point, it means (in the general case) a number of packages can add/remove their own configs during package install/upgrade/removal just by adding/updating/removing "it's" config file from the conf.d directory. For another example, when installing Xen, it adds a file to Grub's conf.d to add the Xen boot options. Same with various web packages that put a file in /etc/apache2/conf.d. IMO it's far better than trying to come up with some mechanism to *SAFELY* edit a shared config file. It also means the user/admin can add their own config file, and if they name it to sort last then they can override any other default settings - but without impacting on the ability of a package to update it's own file. Once you get into editing the package supplied config file then upgrading gets a bit less automatic. So overall I think this is "a good thing" - even though it does have one or two downsides. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 12:47:51 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Apparently synaptic keeps its config in its own config file > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic. Do you mean synaptic reads all config > files in order, and since 99synaptic is the last, it can override all > previous settings? For the fun of it, I just ran an "apt-get install --install-recommends --no-install-recommends" and it chose to not install the recommends. The same with contradicting lines in apt.conf(.d/*): APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Recommends "1"; This will install the recommends, the other way around it won't. Apparently there's still some behavior left in modern Linux that is coherent with an autistic mindset, hahaha. > I must confess I don't understand how this set of > config files is processed; there are quite a lot of files in > etc/apt/apt.conf.d/. There's a man for apt.conf, which doesn't exist > and no man for apt.conf.d, which exists! As with any of these newish "*.d/" folders, you can just $ cat apt.conf.d/* > apt.conf && rm -r apt.conf.d/ without any consequences regarding the configuration. AFAIU this is all about easier deployment (and automated removal) of configurations - like hitting some button on a shady website to add distribution independent repositories to the sources.list. Regards, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 01/02/2016 12:09, Florian Zieboll a écrit : florian@nulldevice:~$ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01norecommend APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Suggests "0"; #APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "0"; Synaptic will override this setting, if the relevant option is checked. Apparently synaptic keeps its config in its own config file /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic. Do you mean synaptic reads all config files in order, and since 99synaptic is the last, it can override all previous settings? I must confess I don't understand how this set of config files is processed; there are quite a lot of files in etc/apt/apt.conf.d/. There's a man for apt.conf, which doesn't exist and no man for apt.conf.d, which exists! Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 10:37:47 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > You should use --no-install-recommends in apt-get. It is > possible to configure apt-get to proceed like this by default but > I've no expertise in how to configure it. In synaptic, you can set > this behaviour in config/preferences/general; there you can also > select the upgrade policy. florian@nulldevice:~$ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01norecommend APT::Install-Recommends "0"; APT::Install-Suggests "0"; #APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "0"; Synaptic will override this setting, if the relevant option is checked. Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 01/02/2016 01:24, Go Linux a écrit : On Sun, 1/31/16, Didier Kryn wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 5:12 PM Le 31/01/2016 23:59, Go Linux a écrit : > So how did packagekit get in there? I'm afraid it was recommended by rox-filer. Didier Another as yet unknown culprit here as rox-filer is not installed. :( I installed rox-filer "manually". I suspect you ave some packages installed because they have been recommended by others. I don't see any other reason why packagekit would be there. You should use --no-install-recommends in apt-get. It is possible to configure apt-get to proceed like this by default but I've no expertise in how to configure it. In synaptic, you can set this behaviour in config/preferences/general; there you can also select the upgrade policy. You might try 'apt-get autoremove --no-install-recommends'. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, 1/31/16, Didier Kryn wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 5:12 PM Le 31/01/2016 23:59, Go Linux a écrit : > So how did packagekit get in there? I'm afraid it was recommended by rox-filer. Didier Another as yet unknown culprit here as rox-filer is not installed. :( golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 31/01/2016 23:59, Go Linux a écrit : So how did packagekit get in there? I'm afraid it was recommended by rox-filer. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, 1/31/16, Didier Kryn wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 4:38 PM Le 31/01/2016 17:39, Go Linux a écrit : > On Sun, 1/31/16, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 10:17 AM > > Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit : > >> I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in >> libsystemd0. I have no idea what. > I made some trials. > > On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit > and gvfs. > > - gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the > desktop when you plug in a removable media. > > - policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run > synaptic from xfce4's menu. > > Didier > > > > The operative qualifier being 'at least'. Just for giggles, I tried to > remove it and got this thrown at me: > > The following packages will be REMOVED: >acpi-fakekey avidemux avidemux-plugins ca-certificates-java default-jre >default-jre-headless dvdstyler ffmpeg gimp gnome-orca gvfs gvfs-backends >gvfs-daemons libasound2-plugins libavdevice56 libespeak1 libgegl-0.2-0 >liblavplay-2.1-0 libmikmod3 libmjpegtools-dev libpulse-dev >libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-sound1.2 >libsdl-sound1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsystemd0 libxine2-x >mjpegtools mplayer2 openjdk-7-jre openjdk-7-jre-headless packagekit >packagekit-tools sane-utils smplayer smplayer-l10n smplayer-themes >speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins vlc xine-ui > > What a mess! Just how do you fix that!! (Rhetorical question btw) > > The list isn't so long that it cannot be reduced carefully, step by step. I'll have a look tomorrow evening, but I must add I have remove packagekit. Also sane-tools since I haven't a scanner connected to that laptop. I doubt I have avidemux, speech-dispatcher or mplayer installed, but I have some components of pulseaudio and alsa for sure. I must check for default-jre and gimp because both are pretty usefull. This is not my personal laptop, I installed it for my wife, but I use it also as a Devuan test bench. BTW I've read on Wikipedia that packagekit is a common front end to several package management systems. But they also say it is aiming at doing IPC, what the hell? It's a freedesktop.org thing. At least this one kit can be removed. Didier orca was part of the default install and likely accounts for speech-dispatcher. I think I tried removing orca early on but ran into a similar situation as above. I do a lot of media work and that is a problem with the pulseaudio stuff that's hooked in. I removed PA and some related stuff a while back but libpulse0 is still needed. When the beta comes out, I may just start over and build things up from scratch very carefully. So how did packagekit get in there? So many questions . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 31/01/2016 17:39, Go Linux a écrit : On Sun, 1/31/16, Didier Kryn wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 10:17 AM Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit : I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in libsystemd0. I have no idea what. I made some trials. On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit and gvfs. - gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the desktop when you plug in a removable media. - policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run synaptic from xfce4's menu. Didier The operative qualifier being 'at least'. Just for giggles, I tried to remove it and got this thrown at me: The following packages will be REMOVED: acpi-fakekey avidemux avidemux-plugins ca-certificates-java default-jre default-jre-headless dvdstyler ffmpeg gimp gnome-orca gvfs gvfs-backends gvfs-daemons libasound2-plugins libavdevice56 libespeak1 libgegl-0.2-0 liblavplay-2.1-0 libmikmod3 libmjpegtools-dev libpulse-dev libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-sound1.2 libsdl-sound1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsystemd0 libxine2-x mjpegtools mplayer2 openjdk-7-jre openjdk-7-jre-headless packagekit packagekit-tools sane-utils smplayer smplayer-l10n smplayer-themes speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins vlc xine-ui What a mess! Just how do you fix that!! (Rhetorical question btw) The list isn't so long that it cannot be reduced carefully, step by step. I'll have a look tomorrow evening, but I must add I have remove packagekit. Also sane-tools since I haven't a scanner connected to that laptop. I doubt I have avidemux, speech-dispatcher or mplayer installed, but I have some components of pulseaudio and alsa for sure. I must check for default-jre and gimp because both are pretty usefull. This is not my personal laptop, I installed it for my wife, but I use it also as a Devuan test bench. BTW I've read on Wikipedia that packagekit is a common front end to several package management systems. But they also say it is aiming at doing IPC, what the hell? It's a freedesktop.org thing. At least this one kit can be removed. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, 1/31/16, Hendrik Boom wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 11:20 AM > Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 10:17 AM > > Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit : > > >I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in > > libsystemd0. I have no idea what. > > I made some trials. > > On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit > and gvfs. > > - gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the > desktop when you plug in a removable media. > > - policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run > synaptic from xfce4's menu. > > Didier > > > > The operative qualifier being 'at least'. Just for giggles, I tried to > remove it and got this thrown at me: > > The following packages will be REMOVED: > acpi-fakekey avidemux avidemux-plugins ca-certificates-java default-jre > default-jre-headless dvdstyler ffmpeg gimp gnome-orca gvfs gvfs-backends > gvfs-daemons libasound2-plugins libavdevice56 libespeak1 libgegl-0.2-0 > liblavplay-2.1-0 libmikmod3 libmjpegtools-dev libpulse-dev > libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-sound1.2 > libsdl-sound1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsystemd0 libxine2-x > mjpegtools mplayer2 openjdk-7-jre openjdk-7-jre-headless packagekit > packagekit-tools sane-utils smplayer smplayer-l10n smplayer-themes > speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins vlc xine-ui > > What a mess! Just how do you fix that!! (Rhetorical question btw) With some significant risk, you could take out libsystemd0, let it do its worst, and then try -- one at a time -- reinstalling the deleted packages that you really need, one at a time. it's just possible that some of these packages have alternative dependencies and that they can be made to work by installing different dependencies from wht you originally hadx. > -- hendriik hendriik and Rainer, I'm not going to be doing anything risky atm because I'm still trying to get the window themes finished for the beta. I have very few of the packages installed that are listed in # apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0: # apt-cache rdepends libsystemd0 libsystemd0 Reverse Depends: tor pulseaudio libpulse0 mpd knot-libs knot apt-cacher-ng weston transmission-daemon tgt systemd-dbg systemd python3-systemd libsystemd-dev syslog-ng-core stunnel4 spice-vdagent sane-utils remctl-server realmd php5-fpm packagekit onak nsca-ng-server network-manager libmutter0e monopd mate-session-manager mate-screensaver light-locker libvirt0 libvirt-daemon-system libvirt-daemon libvirt-clients libguestfs0 lbcd knot-libs knot iodine inn libghc-libsystemd-journal-dev gvfs-daemons gnome-system-monitor gnome-shell gnome-session-bin gnome-screensaver gnome-logs gnome-disk-utility libgdm1 gdm3 fcgiwrap erlang-base-hipe erlang-base clamav-daemon cinnamon-settings-daemon cinnamon-session cinnamon-screensaver beanstalkd apt-cacher-ng acpi-fakekey libaccountsservice0 mpd I was rather shocked (and annoyed) to see that pulseaudio was installed with the default alpha2 xfce desktop and I think that is a likely source of the problem. I have been checking dependencies as I install packages and I didn't catch any so maybe it was something in the alpha itself that spawned those deps. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Hendrik Boom writes: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 04:39:15PM +, Go Linux wrote: [...] >> The operative qualifier being 'at least'. Just for giggles, I tried to >> remove it and got this thrown at me: >> >> The following packages will be REMOVED: >> acpi-fakekey avidemux avidemux-plugins ca-certificates-java default-jre >> default-jre-headless dvdstyler ffmpeg gimp gnome-orca gvfs gvfs-backends >> gvfs-daemons libasound2-plugins libavdevice56 libespeak1 libgegl-0.2-0 >> liblavplay-2.1-0 libmikmod3 libmjpegtools-dev libpulse-dev >> libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-sound1.2 >> libsdl-sound1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsystemd0 libxine2-x >> mjpegtools mplayer2 openjdk-7-jre openjdk-7-jre-headless packagekit >> packagekit-tools sane-utils smplayer smplayer-l10n smplayer-themes >> speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins vlc xine-ui >> >> What a mess! Just how do you fix that!! (Rhetorical question btw) > > With some significant risk, you could take out libsystemd0, let it do > its worst, and then try -- one at a time -- reinstalling the deleted > packages that you really need, one at a time. I'd try this the other way round: First, try dpkg --purge libsystemd0. If this is blocked by a depency, investigate the corresponding packages: If they're not really needed/ wanted, dpkg --purge them, handling more depedencies in the same way. Then, try the initial libsystemd0 --purge again. Repeat until it can be removed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 04:39:15PM +, Go Linux wrote: > On Sun, 1/31/16, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 10:17 AM > > Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit : > > >I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in > > libsystemd0. I have no idea what. > > I made some trials. > > On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit > and gvfs. > > - gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the > desktop when you plug in a removable media. > > - policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run > synaptic from xfce4's menu. > > Didier > > > > The operative qualifier being 'at least'. Just for giggles, I tried to > remove it and got this thrown at me: > > The following packages will be REMOVED: > acpi-fakekey avidemux avidemux-plugins ca-certificates-java default-jre > default-jre-headless dvdstyler ffmpeg gimp gnome-orca gvfs gvfs-backends > gvfs-daemons libasound2-plugins libavdevice56 libespeak1 libgegl-0.2-0 > liblavplay-2.1-0 libmikmod3 libmjpegtools-dev libpulse-dev > libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-sound1.2 > libsdl-sound1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsystemd0 libxine2-x > mjpegtools mplayer2 openjdk-7-jre openjdk-7-jre-headless packagekit > packagekit-tools sane-utils smplayer smplayer-l10n smplayer-themes > speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins vlc xine-ui > > What a mess! Just how do you fix that!! (Rhetorical question btw) With some significant risk, you could take out libsystemd0, let it do its worst, and then try -- one at a time -- reinstalling the deleted packages that you really need, one at a time. it's just possible that some of these packages have alternative dependencies and that they can be made to work by installing different dependencies from wht you originally hadx. > -- hendriik > golinux > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, 1/31/16, Didier Kryn wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, January 31, 2016, 10:17 AM Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit : >I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in libsystemd0. > I have no idea what. I made some trials. On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit and gvfs. - gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the desktop when you plug in a removable media. - policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run synaptic from xfce4's menu. Didier The operative qualifier being 'at least'. Just for giggles, I tried to remove it and got this thrown at me: The following packages will be REMOVED: acpi-fakekey avidemux avidemux-plugins ca-certificates-java default-jre default-jre-headless dvdstyler ffmpeg gimp gnome-orca gvfs gvfs-backends gvfs-daemons libasound2-plugins libavdevice56 libespeak1 libgegl-0.2-0 liblavplay-2.1-0 libmikmod3 libmjpegtools-dev libpulse-dev libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-sound1.2 libsdl-sound1.2-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsystemd0 libxine2-x mjpegtools mplayer2 openjdk-7-jre openjdk-7-jre-headless packagekit packagekit-tools sane-utils smplayer smplayer-l10n smplayer-themes speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins vlc xine-ui What a mess! Just how do you fix that!! (Rhetorical question btw) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 31/01/2016 02:18, Go Linux a écrit : I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in libsystemd0. I have no idea what. I made some trials. On Devuan Alpha2, libsystemd0 is required by (at least) policykit and gvfs. - gvfs is necessary if you want xfce4 to show an icon on the desktop when you plug in a removable media. - policykit and policykit-gnome are necessary if you want to run synaptic from xfce4's menu. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Le 31/01/2016 15:32, Hendrik Boom a écrit : aptide used to be unique because it maintained the distinction between packages you had requested and packages it had installed as dependencies. I'm told that nowadays, apt maintains that information, too, so apttitude users don't have to worry about thheir dependency database being corrupted. I don't know if apt does anything with it, though. I guess this distinction between manually-installed and automatically-installed is necessary for apt-get --auto-remove to work at all. This information is available to Synaptic as well. I have been using synaptic alternatively with apt-get as from when it was available, because I was never able to make sense of aptitude. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 05:14:00PM +0300, Mitt Green wrote: > Florian Zieboll wrote: > > >The new syntax works fine on my Jessie systems, no need for > >double entries. > > Nice :) > > >It is running sysv-init with XDM > >and DWM / JWM and all the "major components" > >like dbus, udev and even cups. > > You may even want to remove dbus package, if there is no > dependency on it. dwm is, by the way, made by > suckless.org, those mates are known for their > minimalistic approach in writing code and their attitude to > systemd in particular, even having a section about it on > the site. They surely read this list :) > > To be honest, I removed aptitude in the very early days > of my Debian experience and have never installed it again. > APT and dpkg do the job great for me, I very rarely open > Synaptic. Deborphan is nice to manage retained > unnecessary packages and configurations. aptide used to be unique because it maintained the distinction between packages you had requested and packages it had installed as dependencies. I'm told that nowadays, apt maintains that information, too, so apttitude users don't have to worry about thheir dependency database being corrupted. I don't know if apt does anything with it, though. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Florian Zieboll wrote: >The new syntax works fine on my Jessie systems, no need for >double entries. Nice :) >It is running sysv-init with XDM >and DWM / JWM and all the "major components" >like dbus, udev and even cups. You may even want to remove dbus package, if there is no dependency on it. dwm is, by the way, made by suckless.org, those mates are known for their minimalistic approach in writing code and their attitude to systemd in particular, even having a section about it on the site. They surely read this list :) To be honest, I removed aptitude in the very early days of my Debian experience and have never installed it again. APT and dpkg do the job great for me, I very rarely open Synaptic. Deborphan is nice to manage retained unnecessary packages and configurations. My €0.02, Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On 01/31/2016 05:57 AM, Florian Zieboll wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:23:50 +0300 > Mitt Green wrote: >> Avoiding libsystemd0 without angband.pl repos is >> not possible yet though. > > Yes, it is. I was a bit surprised myself when I checked my Jessie > laptop again some days ago, but it is does definitely not run any > systemd components - with only the Devuan mirror and Debian security in > the sources.list and no "orphaned" packages from other repos installed: > > Same here. I have xfce and lightdm with no outside repos, no libsystemd0 and no package with systemd anywhere in the name. The only limitation I've run across is that I can't install gvfs, so there's no pop-up icon on the desktop when I plug in a usb stick. Life is good. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Haines Brown writes: > I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for > quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or > safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid > installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface > from wlan0 to wlp3s0. This comes from another attempt at using udev device renaming facilities in order to work around udev device re-ordering with a couple of "be nice to Dell" gimmicks thrown in (the guy who originally implemented 'encode bus layout in network device name' for Fedora had a @dell.com e-mail address). Since that's a totally braindead idea only a hardware clown could ever come up with[*], the best course of action would seem to be to disable this. Reportedly, the boot parameter net.ifnames=0 does that. [*] The kernel is supposed to provide an abstract programming interface for the available hardware such that it's easily possible to write software which is at least portable to different computers running the same OS. But unfortunately, the days of FORTRAN being considered the abstract programming interface of IBM 704 mainframes and IBM 704 mainframes only haven't ended everywhere and the systemd guys aren't the only people who are generally pissed of by every bit of technical progress which happened since ca 1965[**]. [**] Weren't it for the current popularity of ARM, someone would likely have considered to implement the whole piece of Brobdingnagian precision mechanic in "hand-optimized x86 machine code" instead of C ... [...] > Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user > does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard > input. Debian has chosen to disable setuid-execution of the X server to make the system more secure against unwarranted intrusions of the person who wrongly believes to own it. Reportedly, the xserver-org-legacy package can be installed to fix this. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
I was asked why I do not run Devuan rather than Sid on the laptop. When I installed Sid, Devuan was not even in Alpha. I am not anxious to reinstall Sid, but but when Devuan beta comes out I'll install it. Mitt Green pointed out that the /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd script I've been using is incorrect. Perhaps this is why I acquired systemd-udevd and sysdend-logind even without systemd. I suspect I could remove the /lib/systemd/ directory entirely, and it might block any systemd-udev from changing network interface name, and systemd=logind from freezing user's frozen desktop. So let me ask: if I delete the directory and its contents, will I still have a functioning Sid system? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:23:50 +0300 Mitt Green wrote: > Why not then pin libsystemd0 two times, > both "old APT" and "new APT (>1.1)" ways? The new syntax works fine on my Jessie systems, no need for double entries. > Avoiding libsystemd0 without angband.pl repos is > not possible yet though. Yes, it is. I was a bit surprised myself when I checked my Jessie laptop again some days ago, but it is does definitely not run any systemd components - with only the Devuan mirror and Debian security in the sources.list and no "orphaned" packages from other repos installed: root@nullmobil:~# lsb_release -a No LSB modules are available. Distributor ID: Devuan Description:Devuan GNU/Linux 1.0 (jessie) Release:1.0 Codename: jessie root@nullmobil:~# root@nullmobil:~# cat /etc/apt/sources.list* deb http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main non-free contrib deb-src http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main non-free contrib # jessie-updates deb http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free # backports #deb http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free #deb-src http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free # debian security deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free # angband.pl #deb http://angband.pl/debian/ nosystemd main cat: /etc/apt/sources.list.d: Is a directory root@nullmobil:~# root@nullmobil:~# aptitude -F %p search '~i' | xargs -l1 apt-cache policy | grep tp\:\/\/ | grep -ve de.mirror.devuan.org -e security.debian.org root@nullmobil:~# root@nullmobil:~# aptitude search '~i' | grep systemd root@nullmobil:~# Please tell me what I miss here... It is running sysv-init with XDM and DWM / JWM and all the "major components" like dbus, udev and even cups. BTW, I just noticed that the "%O" switch for "aptitude -F" does not work, neither on my Devuan systems nor on Debian Jessie. It would be nice if someone would confirm this, before I file a bug report. While e.g. $ aptitude -F "%p%s" search '?installed' works as expected, $ aptitude -F "%p%O" search '?installed' doesn't even start to initialize and returns immediately, without output. Ahoi, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:26:48 -0500, Haines wrote in message <20160131002648.gg8...@engels.historicalmaterialism.info>: > I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for > quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or > safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid > installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless > interface from wlan0 to wlp3s0. > > Changing the entry in /etc/network/interfaces fixed that problem. So > now I could do a wireless aptitude update and safe-upgrade. > > Even though in /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd I have: > > Package: "systemd" > Pin: origin "" > Pin-Priority: -1 > > Systemd was re-installed. Why didn't this systemd file prevent it? > > Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user > does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard > input. I found this: > > $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep EE > (EE) systemd-logind: failed to gete session: The name \ > org.freedesktop.login1 was not provided by any .service \ > files. > > Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from? > How can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user? ..we used to have a "--what-provides" search flag somewhere, man -k, man dpkg-query, man apt-file, man apt-cache etc did not turn up anything ringing any bells for me, so I tried: https://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=systemd-logind&mode=filename&suite=unstable&arch=any ? ..I like this a lot better: http://wiki.grml.org/doku.php?id=debian ..can we trust these anymore? https://packages.debian.org , http://packages.ubuntu.com/ and https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkg_basics.en.html ..other ideas: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/198009/what-provides-etc-exports-and-how-do-i-find-that-out https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Debian+%22what-provides%22 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=linux+%22what-provides%22 -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Go Linux wrote:>Needless to say, I am NOT going to install it.Why not then pin libsystemd0 two times,both "old APT" and "new APT (>1.1)" ways?As we have been discussing pinning for a while now,you probably have seen the "new way."Avoiding libsystemd0 without angband.pl repos isnot possible yet though.PS I didn't receive the message, I am replying to, again.I will probably use protonmail.ch again, when they willmove out of beta-stage on February 18. Right now accessingit costs a lot of pressure; you have to enter two passwordsevery time you close the tab with it. Needless to say, you can't use it in a client. Their mobile and desktop appsare in development though.Farewell,Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
Haines Brown wrote:
>systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface
>from wlan0 to wlp3s0.
I highly recommend to use udev from Wheezy/Jessie on Unstable
and pin the package ("apt hold udev"). Vdev one day will be our
default device manager anyway.
The correct way to prevent a package from being installed in
Unstable/Ceres:
=
Package: [package name]
Pin: release a=* [or o=*]
Pin-Priority: -1
=
>Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from?
systemd-logind is provided by systemd package.
Cheers,
Mitt
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Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:26:48 -0500 Haines Brown wrote: > I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for > quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or > safe-upgrade for the first time after [snip] > Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from? > How can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user? I'm not a package manager whisperer so I can't answer your question. But what would happen if you simply backed up the laptop's data and installed a clean Devuan on it? I'd imagine Devuan would be much more capable of remaining systemd-free than would any Debian, especially Sid. If your reason for Sid is you need new apps, you might consider a rolling release like Funtoo, Gentoo, Void, Spark (sans-systemd Arch), Manjaro-OpenRC and the like. I'm running Void right now, and check out my apps: == [slitt@mydesk ~]$ uname -a Linux mydesk 4.3.3_2 #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Dec 23 07:55:09 UTC 2015 x86_64 GNU/Linux [slitt@mydesk ~]$ firefox -v Mozilla Firefox 43.0.4 [slitt@mydesk ~]$ == SteveT Steve Litt January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd is haunting me
On Sat, 1/30/16, Haines Brown wrote: Subject: [DNG] systemd is haunting me To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, January 30, 2016, 6:26 PM I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface from wlan0 to wlp3s0. Changing the entry in /etc/network/interfaces fixed that problem. So now I could do a wireless aptitude update and safe-upgrade. Even though in /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd I have: Package: "systemd" Pin: origin "" Pin-Priority: -1 Systemd was re-installed. Why didn't this systemd file prevent it? Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard input. I found this: $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep EE (EE) systemd-logind: failed to gete session: The name \ org.freedesktop.login1 was not provided by any .service \ files. Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from? How can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user? Haines Brown I'm suffering this curse also. I am just now upgrading Jessie and something wants to pull in libsystemd0. I have no idea what. Needless to say, I am NOT going to install it. Unfortunately, Devuan's version of whack-a-mole is only going to accelerate. We're going to be overrun if we don't get more hands on deck . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] systemd is haunting me
I have been running Debian Sid on a laptop with a purged systemd for quite a few months. Maybe when I now ran # aptitude update or safe-upgrade for the first time after several months since the Sid installation systemd-udevd seems to have switched my wireless interface from wlan0 to wlp3s0. Changing the entry in /etc/network/interfaces fixed that problem. So now I could do a wireless aptitude update and safe-upgrade. Even though in /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd I have: Package: "systemd" Pin: origin "" Pin-Priority: -1 Systemd was re-installed. Why didn't this systemd file prevent it? Then I found that while root can run starx with no problem, when user does it the desktop comes up frozen along with mouse and keyboard input. I found this: $ cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep EE (EE) systemd-logind: failed to gete session: The name \ org.freedesktop.login1 was not provided by any .service \ files. Systemd is not on the system, so where did systemd-logind come from? How can I block it and recover a usable virtual desktop for user? Haines Brown ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
