Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 10:52 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Hi! > > I migrated a Debian Buster to Devuan Chimaera by already install runit- > init into /target during Debian installation and then switching over > sources.list to Chimaera. > > Debian 11 defaults to usr merge. So the installed system used usr > merge. > > I suppose Devuan is compatible and will remain compatible with that? I > think it would be necessary as well some users may migrate from > buster. Or one would have to find a way to undo the merge, but this I > think is quite error prone. Devuan defaults to non-merged-/usr as far as I know. You can always install with merged-/usr on Devuan too using the expert install option. (Personally I prefer non-merged-/usr remains to be the default.) > I like to avoid breaking the server VM by undoing usr merge, even tough > I prefer systems without usr merge. It is easy to do with systems where > I can use a Devuan ISO for installation, but for this system I had the > Debian Netinstall ISO and it is what it is. You can use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess, with a dpkg release later than or equal to 1.20.6, see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr "For already installed systems (since dpkg 1.20.6) you can also use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess program to revert the breakage from these systems (but beware that it should not be used in systemd's emergency mode)." (I've used that script on two Debian installations successfully already.) Thanks! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Hi Svante. No need to Cc me. I am subscribed. (I know there are different habits, so just a friendly information.) Svante Signell - 05.11.21, 11:26:52 CET: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 10:52 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Debian 11 defaults to usr merge. So the installed system used usr > > merge. > > > > I suppose Devuan is compatible and will remain compatible with that? > > I think it would be necessary as well some users may migrate from > > buster. Or one would have to find a way to undo the merge, but this > > I think is quite error prone. > > Devuan defaults to non-merged-/usr as far as I know. You can always > install with merged-/usr on Devuan too using the expert install > option. (Personally I prefer non-merged-/usr remains to be the > default.) Yeah… I always install Devuan them without merged-/usr. > > I like to avoid breaking the server VM by undoing usr merge, even > > tough I prefer systems without usr merge. It is easy to do with > > systems where I can use a Devuan ISO for installation, but for this > > system I had the Debian Netinstall ISO and it is what it is. > > You can use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess, with a dpkg release later than or > equal to 1.20.6, see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr > > "For already installed systems (since dpkg 1.20.6) you can also use > the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess program to revert the breakage from these > systems (but beware that it should not be used in systemd's emergency > mode)." > > (I've used that script on two Debian installations successfully > already.) Splendid. Thanks a lot for this. I hesitated, not wanting to cause any further hassle for the admins of the virtualization infrastructure the server VM runs on, but it indeed worked. It appears that… there is… some… discussion about the merged-/usr approach currently taken in Debian. What a mass. Happy I could undo it, although I am in awe for the developer of dpkg- fsys-usrunmess and it feels like I have used a magic wand of some kind. Best, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the non-merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera will also be. Official Debian information: The historical justifications for the filesystem layout with /bin, /sbin, and /lib directories separate from their equivalents under /usr no longer apply today; see the Freedesktop.org summary. Debian bullseye will be the last Debian release that supports the non-merged-usr layout; for systems with a legacy layout that have been upgraded without a reinstall, the usrmerge package exists to do the conversion if desired. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=841666 The Technical Committee resolves that Debian 'bookworm' should support only the merged-usr root filesystem layout, dropping support for the non-merged-usr layout. Until after the release of 'bullseye', any implementation of this resolution must be done in the 'experimental' distribution, or otherwise kept out of the critical paths for the release of 'bullseye'. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=978636 En viernes, 5 de noviembre de 2021 15:44:21 CET, Martin Steigerwald escribió: Hi Svante. No need to Cc me. I am subscribed. (I know there are different habits, so just a friendly information.) Svante Signell - 05.11.21, 11:26:52 CET: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 10:52 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Debian 11 defaults to usr merge. So the installed system used usr > > merge. > > > > I suppose Devuan is compatible and will remain compatible with that? > > I think it would be necessary as well some users may migrate from > > buster. Or one would have to find a way to undo the merge, but this > > I think is quite error prone. > > Devuan defaults to non-merged-/usr as far as I know. You can always > install with merged-/usr on Devuan too using the expert install > option. (Personally I prefer non-merged-/usr remains to be the > default.) Yeah… I always install Devuan them without merged-/usr. > > I like to avoid breaking the server VM by undoing usr merge, even > > tough I prefer systems without usr merge. It is easy to do with > > systems where I can use a Devuan ISO for installation, but for this > > system I had the Debian Netinstall ISO and it is what it is. > > You can use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess, with a dpkg release later than or > equal to 1.20.6, see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr > > "For already installed systems (since dpkg 1.20.6) you can also use > the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess program to revert the breakage from these > systems (but beware that it should not be used in systemd's emergency > mode)." > > (I've used that script on two Debian installations successfully > already.) Splendid. Thanks a lot for this. I hesitated, not wanting to cause any further hassle for the admins of the virtualization infrastructure the server VM runs on, but it indeed worked. It appears that… there is… some… discussion about the merged-/usr approach currently taken in Debian. What a mass. Happy I could undo it, although I am in awe for the developer of dpkg- fsys-usrunmess and it feels like I have used a magic wand of some kind. Best, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: > Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the non- > merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera > will also be. > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the project. It is up to discussion though though. Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. Thanks! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Svante Signell via Dng - 05.11.21, 21:13:10 CET: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: > > Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the > > non- > > merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 > > Chimaera > > will also be. > > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- > /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the > project. It is up to discussion though though. > Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. I wonder what Devuan would do, if Debian packages ship all binaries in /usr. It would need quite some patching to undo it. But for all Devuan Beowulf / Chimaera servers it will be no /usr-merge for me. And for my Devuan Ceres laptops it will be like that for as long as possible. I do not find the link at the moment, but I saw a quite good idea for an alternative to the FHS standard. And this was using /command directory for the currently active binaries, symlinked to packages in /package directory where they contain version numbers. And also some provision for documentation. I do not know how libs where handled tough in this scheme. But in the end an alternative would need to provide a real benefit for me, especially if some breakage is to be expected. With merged /usr I get the breakage… but I do not see much of a benefit at least for the way I use Linux. Best, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Martin Steigerwald said on Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:44:06 +0100 >No need to Cc me. I am subscribed. (I know there are different habits, >so just a friendly information.) Me too. I'm on the list, and people cc'ing me when replying to the list or writing to me and cc'ing the list just complexify my life. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Alexis PM via Dng said on Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:50:41 + (UTC) > Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the > non-merged-usr layout. >It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera will also be. > >Official Debian information: > >The historical justifications for the filesystem layout with /bin, >/sbin, and /lib directories separate from their equivalents under /usr >no longer apply today; see the Freedesktop.org summary. That's Freedesktop.org's opinion. Freedesktop is also very pro-systemd. Personally, I want a directory, guaranteed not to be a mount point, where the statically compiled binaries necessary to bring up the system, things like mount and ln and vi and fsck, etc, so if I don't want to, I don't have to run an initramfs. Even if /usr is a mountpoint. The usr merge just denies us one more thing we used to be able to do, which is typical of Freedesktop.Org recommended stuff. As far as Debian's "Official Debian information", if Debian always made wise choices, there would be no Devuan. :-) SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On 11/5/21 4:13 PM, Svante Signell via Dng wrote: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: >> Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the non- >> merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera >> will also be. >> > > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- > /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the > project. It is up to discussion though though. > Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. > > Thanks! > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > BSD and system V (AT&T/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a decade ago. The original intent was for a fast disk for root and less expensive media for all else. This was in the days of Lab Version 6 and 7, later system III and BSD 4.x. A large disk was 100 MB. Once large fast disks of 100GB became inexpensive commodities, the incentive was gone. None the less, from a personal perspective: I have been using Unix since lab version 6. I have used BSD since 4.0, Minix, Ultrix, etc. I have no preference and would suggest that whatever is easiest for the maintainers/developers of Devuan should be adopted. -- William (Bill) Moss billm...@acm.org NY (USA) Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are. Benjamin Franklin When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty. John Basil Barnhill ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
william moss via Dng - 05.11.21, 22:49:42 CET: > On 11/5/21 4:13 PM, Svante Signell via Dng wrote: > > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: > >> Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the > >> non- > >> merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 > >> Chimaera > >> will also be. > > > > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- > > /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the > > project. It is up to discussion though though. > > Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. […] > BSD and system V (AT&T/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a > decade ago. Interesting information. I never checked what they do with other Unixes. > The original intent was for a fast disk for root and less expensive > media for all else. > > This was in the days of Lab Version 6 and 7, later system III and BSD > 4.x. A large disk was 100 MB. > > Once large fast disks of 100GB became inexpensive commodities, the > incentive was gone. I know this background. > None the less, from a personal perspective: > I have been using Unix since lab version 6. I have used BSD since > 4.0, Minix, Ultrix, etc. I have no preference and would suggest that > whatever is easiest for the maintainers/developers of Devuan should be > adopted. I do not have a strong preference either. However… if it is for going usrmerge, then for me it is about doing it properly. To me it seems that the arguments of the dpkg maintainer are quite warranted: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr To me it appears that the current default was quite rushed and adopted without discussing its consequences through to the end: base-installer: Allow installing w/o the broken merged-usr-via-symlinks https://bugs.debian.org/923091 And that is one of the main issues I have with how some Systemd developers and supporters approach adopting their ideas – the idea for merged-/usr for Linux was brought in by Systemd people: They use force, if their arguments do not do the trick. If done right, I could even go along with some of the ideas behind Systemd… but for me Systemd still is much more a social and cultural issue than a technical one. The path of adopting Systemd is accompanied with unparalleled arrogance and ignorance and a lot of power struggles. A pattern I currently see in other parts of society as well. Freedom… especially the right to free speech… is the base for everything else. > When the people fear the government there is > tyranny, when the government fears the people > there is liberty. > John Basil Barnhill Very right and very appropriate to remember this in the current times. (P.S.: I suggest moving off from Google Mail… of course it is entirely your decision, but… Google is… in my opinion is not compatible with above citation. Google extends what they now about us… but does not reveal how they do what they do and what they actually do to a large extent.) Ciao, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
william moss via Dng [05/11/2021 22.49]: BSD and system V (AT&T/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a decade ago. Certainly not FreeBSD: $ uname -or FreeBSD 13.0-STABLE $ ls /bin | wc -l 44 $ ls /usr/bin | wc -l 488 -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Harald Arnesen via Dng - 06.11.21, 12:31:16 CET: > william moss via Dng [05/11/2021 22.49]: > > BSD and system V (AT&T/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a > > decade ago. > > Certainly not FreeBSD: > > $ uname -or > FreeBSD 13.0-STABLE > > $ ls /bin | wc -l >44 > > $ ls /usr/bin | wc -l > 488 Ah, good that you actually looked :) -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
>> On 11/5/21 4:13 PM, Svante Signell via Dng wrote: >>> On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the non- merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera will also be. >>> >>> I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- >>> /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the >>> project. It is up to discussion though though. >>> Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. In my previous post I merely quoted Debian's official position. I am not enthusiastic about the change of directory organization/layout, but unlike systemd or wayland, I see no real major problems (except unusual configurations, adapting some legacy code that calls binaries and libraries by their absolute path) and considering the big work that Devuan would imply to revert the adoption of usr-merge by Debian (in the next stables, more in testing, more in sid/ceres) I really prefer Devuan to dedicate its limited resources to offer an operating system that is clean of systemd, without forced dependencies (by window managers, desktops, web browsers and so on) of wayland, pulseaudio and "Poetterings", and as bug free as possible. Best regards. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Le 06/11/2021 à 03:03, Steve Litt a écrit : > Personally, I want a directory, guaranteed not to be a mount point, > where the statically compiled binaries necessary to bring up the > system, things like mount and ln and vi and fsck, etc, so if I don't > want to, I don't have to run an initramfs. Hi Steve. It seems you always understand the s of sbin as meaning "static". it isn't. Look at Devuan binaries in /sbin and /usr/sbin; they are dynamically linked. s stands for "system". # file /bin/mount /bin/mount: setuid ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, BuildID[sha1]=82eb1fdddc0083f599c4072f4e1a39e28de6c759, for GNU/Linux 3.2.0, stripped What is called "interpreter" here is the dynamic linker associated to the shared version of gcc, the Gnu C library. There is practically no statically linked application in a Debian distribution, except some part of debootstrap. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Le 08/11/2021 à 13:50, Didier Kryn a écrit : > Le 06/11/2021 à 03:03, Steve Litt a écrit : >> Personally, I want a directory, guaranteed not to be a mount point, >> where the statically compiled binaries necessary to bring up the >> system, things like mount and ln and vi and fsck, etc, so if I don't >> want to, I don't have to run an initramfs. > Hi Steve. It seems you always understand the s of sbin as meaning > "static". it isn't. Look at Devuan binaries in /sbin and /usr/sbin; they > are dynamically linked. s stands for "system". > > # file /bin/mount > /bin/mount: setuid ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, x86-64, version 1 > (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, > BuildID[sha1]=82eb1fdddc0083f599c4072f4e1a39e28de6c759, for GNU/Linux > 3.2.0, stripped > > What is called "interpreter" here is the dynamic linker associated to > the shared version of gcc, the Gnu C library. There is practically no > statically linked application in a Debian distribution, except some part > of debootstrap. > > -- Didier > > Sorry, not gcc, glibc. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:50:25 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 06/11/2021 à 03:03, Steve Litt a écrit : > > Personally, I want a directory, guaranteed not to be a mount point, > > where the statically compiled binaries necessary to bring up the > > system, things like mount and ln and vi and fsck, etc, so if I don't > > want to, I don't have to run an initramfs. > > Hi Steve. It seems you always understand the s of sbin as meaning > "static". it isn't. Look at Devuan binaries in /sbin and /usr/sbin; they > are dynamically linked. s stands for "system". > > # file /bin/mount > /bin/mount: setuid ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, x86-64, version 1 > (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, > BuildID[sha1]=82eb1fdddc0083f599c4072f4e1a39e28de6c759, for GNU/Linux > 3.2.0, stripped > > What is called "interpreter" here is the dynamic linker associated to > the shared version of gcc, the Gnu C library. There is practically no > statically linked application in a Debian distribution, except some part > of debootstrap. > > -- Didier > Hi, on my system there are just a couple: /bin/sash: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), statically linked, BuildID[sha1]=433ea9ce7bb7462db5f83bd9bd4e59535b826cc9, for GNU/Linux 3.2.0, stripped /sbin/e2fsck.static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), statically linked, BuildID[sha1]=b6cb05441d3e0215639e4445ca0d1947ac26ab43, for GNU/Linux 3.2.0, stripped and in the repos: bash-static/stable 5.1-2+b3 amd64 busybox-static/stable 1:1.30.1-6+b3 amd64 cdebootstrap-static/stable 0.7.8+b3 amd64 dar-static/stable 2.6.13-2+b3 amd64 zsh-static/stable 5.8-6+b2 amd64 Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Didier Kryn - 08.11.21, 13:50:25 CET: > What is called "interpreter" here is the dynamic linker associated to > the shared version of gcc, the Gnu C library. There is practically no > statically linked application in a Debian distribution, except some > part of debootstrap. Well and special packages like bash-static, busybox-static and zsh- static. Nice to have in case you want to do crazy things with your system that might cause interesting breakage like switching a system in place from 32 to 64 bit. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Didier Kryn said on Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:50:25 +0100 >Le 06/11/2021 à 03:03, Steve Litt a écrit : >> Personally, I want a directory, guaranteed not to be a mount point, >> where the statically compiled binaries necessary to bring up the >> system, things like mount and ln and vi and fsck, etc, so if I don't >> want to, I don't have to run an initramfs. > > Hi Steve. It seems you always understand the s of sbin as meaning >"static". it isn't. Look at Devuan binaries in /sbin and /usr/sbin; >they are dynamically linked. s stands for "system". > > # file /bin/mount >/bin/mount: setuid ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, x86-64, version 1 >(SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, >BuildID[sha1]=82eb1fdddc0083f599c4072f4e1a39e28de6c759, for GNU/Linux >3.2.0, stripped > >What is called "interpreter" here is the dynamic linker associated to >the shared version of gcc, the Gnu C library. There is practically no >statically linked application in a Debian distribution, except some >part of debootstrap. Hi Didier, The logic is still the same. I need a guaranteed place on the root partition to find the programs necessary to mount all the other partitions, or else I'll need to run an initramfs. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Le 09/11/2021 à 07:56, Steve Litt a écrit : > The logic is still the same. I need a guaranteed place on the root > partition to find the programs necessary to mount all the other > partitions, or else I'll need to run an initramfs. You just need that the root partition be large enough to contain all of /bin, /sbin, /lib, with includes all applications which were in /usr/bin and /usr/sbin before the merge. This is below 400MB in a basic Devuan desktop. However many of the applications moved from /usr/bin to /bin are dynamically linked with shared libraries in /usr/lib. Is that part of the merge? That would be the biggest part. 2.8G on by Chimaera laptop. That said, I agree that there is some confusion in mixing all applications in the same directory, but, in my mind, it is mostly the question of a sensible organization. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Tue, 2021-11-09 at 01:56 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > The logic is still the same. I need a guaranteed place on the root > partition to find the programs necessary to mount all the other > partitions, or else I'll need to run an initramfs. Been following this debate. Admit that a few years ago I'd have reflexively said keep /bin and /sbin but now? The assumptions have changed so much it no longer makes much sense. The size of the OS is just so small now, compared to storage media and data files. Even a small SSD will easily hold all of /usr for all but the most bloated installs on old obsolete storage media. So simply including /usr in the root filesystem makes sense for almost all use cases. On the other hand, putting everything in /usr makes some interesting options possible, like making it a read only mount point except during updates. Back in olden days being able to reliably boot into a minimal environment for rescue and recovery was important. Now a rescue distribution on a USB stick is far more effective when things go wrong. So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. Wish I could say the same thing about the X11 vs Wayland divide. See the cold logic and theory in the Wayland argument but keep looking at the current reality and Wayland comes up short. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
John Morris via Dng said on Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:26:52 -0600 >On Tue, 2021-11-09 at 01:56 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> >> The logic is still the same. I need a guaranteed place on the root >> partition to find the programs necessary to mount all the other >> partitions, or else I'll need to run an initramfs. > >Been following this debate. Admit that a few years ago I'd have >reflexively said keep /bin and /sbin but now? The assumptions have >changed so much it no longer makes much sense. > >The size of the OS is just so small now, compared to storage media and >data files. Even a small SSD will easily hold all of /usr for all but >the most bloated installs on old obsolete storage media. So simply >including /usr in the root filesystem makes sense for almost all use >cases. I see what you mean. In fact, I use an SSD for /usr, /etc, /lib etc and mount everything else on spinning rust. As a matter of fact, on my Void Linux installation: === [slitt@mydesk ~]$ ls -ld /usr drwxr-xr-x 10 root root 4096 May 5 2021 /usr [slitt@mydesk ~]$ ls -ld /bin lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 May 4 2021 /bin -> usr/bin [slitt@mydesk ~]$ ls -ld /sbin lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 May 4 2021 /sbin -> usr/bin [slitt@mydesk ~]$ ls -ld /usr/sbin lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3 May 4 2021 /usr/sbin -> bin [slitt@mydesk ~]$ === So I've been using usr merge for years and I'm still alive. Which brings up another beef I have: Why don't they build Ext4 and maybe a couple other mainstream filesystems into the kernel, so if I want, I can boot without initramfs? What would it cost? Everybody is ooohing and ahhing about sytemd's boot speed. If you want to REALLY improve boot speed, get rid of initramfs and just do mounts and encrypting from files on the root drive. Of course, this means you can't have an encrypted root drive. Well, if you want an encrypted root partition, use an initramfs. > On the other hand, putting everything in /usr makes some >interesting options possible, like making it a read only mount point >except during updates. > >Back in olden days being able to reliably boot into a minimal >environment for rescue and recovery was important. Now a rescue >distribution on a USB stick is far more effective when things go wrong. This isn't how I see it. Needing to look into a running initramfs is awful. Of course, systemd has some kind of periscope to look into the initramfs. If one drives on that side of the road. I'm not saying initramfs (or initrd that preceded it) is completely without use. It brought us Knoppix and all the live CDs that followed. It enables us to have any conceivable encryption or filesystem or filesystem addon such as LVM, on each partition, without jamming the kernel with all sorts of seldom used stuff. All I'm saying is I'd prefer distros don't make initramfs mandatory (without doing all sorts of fancy footwork every time you upgrade your kernel), for those of us with basic systems. >So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. I won't phrase it quite that strongly, but yeah, given your point about not gaining much from a mounted /usr, it's not a big issue. > >Wish I could say the same thing about the X11 vs Wayland divide. See >the cold logic and theory in the Wayland argument but keep looking at >the current reality and Wayland comes up short. As far as I know, Wayland is the child prodegy of FreeDesktop.Org, one of the most effective sales organizations for systemd, and probably *the* most effective proponent of massive, unnecessary complexification. Hence, I'll ride the X11 train til the bitter end. LOL, and the day I switch to Wayland, my dmenu stops working, and dmenu is probably *the* most important component in my work flow. I use dmenu over 100 times per day. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Le 13/11/2021 à 00:26, John Morris via Dng a écrit : > So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. Seems I've got it wrong. My understanding was that /usr/bin and /usr/sbin were merged into /bin and /sbin. You assume the opposite and probably so does Steve. Needs clarifications. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Le 13/11/2021 à 08:48, Didier Kryn a écrit : > Le 13/11/2021 à 00:26, John Morris via Dng a écrit : >> So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. > Seems I've got it wrong. My understanding was that /usr/bin and > /usr/sbin were merged into /bin and /sbin. You assume the opposite and > probably so does Steve. > > Needs clarifications. > > -- Didier I checked and I was wrong, based on the option offered years ago in Busybox and Buildroot (/usr/bin was a symlink to /bin and /usr/sbin was an symlink to /sbin). I'm amazed; I find this amazingly stupid. It just makes no sense because /usr is a nonsense - /usr means "users' directory", which is now /home) - and I was hopping to see it disapear. On the opposite, it becomes the actual root of the OS. I now understand the concern of Steve: it looks like the beginning of an attempt to force initramfs on people, even if it is not effective yet. There remains the option to make /usr a symlink to /, let dpkg use it blindly and ignore it in real life. -- Didier -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Steve Litt: > John Morris via Dng said on Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:26:52 -0600 > >On Tue, 2021-11-09 at 01:56 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: ... > >The size of the OS is just so small now, compared to storage media and > >data files. Even a small SSD will easily hold all of /usr for all but > >the most bloated installs on old obsolete storage media. So simply > >including /usr in the root filesystem makes sense for almost all use > >cases. Size is not the only reason. You might want to have a separation for other reason. ... > Which brings up another beef I have: Why don't they build Ext4 and > maybe a couple other mainstream filesystems into the kernel, so if I > want, I can boot without initramfs? What would it cost? ... I use it all the time. Just do it yourself, it just cost you a little time, or do you volunteer to maintain a such kernel for devuan ? Regards, /Karl Hammar ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Am Samstag, 13. November 2021 schrieb Didier Kryn: > Le 13/11/2021 à 08:48, Didier Kryn a écrit : > > Le 13/11/2021 à 00:26, John Morris via Dng a écrit : > >> So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. > > > > Seems I've got it wrong. My understanding was that /usr/bin and > > /usr/sbin were merged into /bin and /sbin. You assume the opposite > > and probably so does Steve. > > > > Needs clarifications. > > > > -- Didier > > I checked and I was wrong, based on the option offered years ago > in Busybox and Buildroot (/usr/bin was a symlink to /bin and > /usr/sbin was an symlink to /sbin). I'm amazed; I find this amazingly > stupid. It just makes no sense because /usr is a nonsense - /usr > means "users' directory", which is now /home) - and I was hopping to > see it disapear. On the opposite, it becomes the actual root of the > OS. Hi Didier, seems you got it (somewhat) wrong again ;-) I've been thinking of /usr as "Unix System Resources", but then I looked it up to be sure… See for yourself. Kind regards, Stefan Cite from Linux Filesystem Hierarchy¹: 1.17. /usr /usr usually contains by far the largest share of data on a system. Hence, this is one of the most important directories in the system as it contains all the user binaries, their documentation, libraries, header files, etc X and its supporting libraries can be found here. User programs like telnet, ftp, etc are also placed here. In the original Unix implementations, /usr was where the home directories of the users were placed (that is to say, /usr/someone was then the directory now known as /home/someone). In current Unices, /usr is where user-land programs and data (as opposed to 'system land' programs and data) are. The name hasn't changed, but it's meaning has narrowed and lengthened from "everything user related" to "user usable programs and data". As such, some people may now refer to this directory as meaning 'User System Resources' and not 'user' as was originally intended. [1] https://tldp.org/LDP/Linux-Filesystem-Hierarchy/html/usr.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
> John Morris via Dng writes: > So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. the real result shod be eliminate /usr. system packages should all use --prefix=/, local ones should default to --prefix=/local, and closed src crap^Wstuff should use things like /opt/FOO for a prefix. linux, like att, calls bsd's /usr /home. the ample disk sizes mean /usr has lost its value and should be gone. > Wish I could say the same thing about the X11 vs Wayland divide. See > the cold logic and theory in the Wayland argument but keep looking at > the current reality and Wayland comes up short. wayland has too many design flaws ever to be reasonsable. weston might be salvagable, at least as a basis for a proper av compositor. but what we need for that space is a daemon whose sole purpose is providing interconnection between clients. like a sip proxy with a better protocol. unix, ip/udp and ip/tcp sockets at least, perhaps sctp and dccp, too. both proxy-style and enabling the two to negotiate direct sockets. but all type sockets by default and from the start. when they use unix sockets the can exchange a FD and there by arrange shared memory should that be userful. but ip sockets must remain fully usable for everything. input, for example should be clients. one for archaic stuff, by way of the kernel, like the pre-usb stuff. plus one daemon for each usb device. and eventually for ethernet-connected devices. (802.2cg w/ lp-wan style ipv6 would work very well for input devices. and ch for things like camaras.) wayland's anti-network design, and not having things like input also be clients make it too broken for a useful future. (of course cg's 10 Mbit bandwidth mean normal ip/ethernet also would work, but lp-wan's 127-octet mtu and therefor smaller v6 packets may be better for simple input devices and input's real-time nature.) -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
k...@aspodata.se said on Sat, 13 Nov 2021 12:42:51 +0100 (CET) >Steve Litt: >> John Morris via Dng said on Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:26:52 -0600 >> >On Tue, 2021-11-09 at 01:56 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >... >> >The size of the OS is just so small now, compared to storage media >> >and data files. Even a small SSD will easily hold all of /usr for >> >all but the most bloated installs on old obsolete storage media. >> >So simply including /usr in the root filesystem makes sense for >> >almost all use cases. > >Size is not the only reason. >You might want to have a separation for other reason. > >... >> Which brings up another beef I have: Why don't they build Ext4 and >> maybe a couple other mainstream filesystems into the kernel, so if I >> want, I can boot without initramfs? What would it cost? >... > >I use it all the time. > >Just do it yourself, it just cost you a little time, or do you >volunteer to maintain a such kernel for devuan ? Hi Karl, I think it's more than just a little time. Every time the kernel updates, you need to get the new kernel's source, recompile, and replace the new kernel. It *is* an interesting idea though. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
James Cloos: > > John Morris via Dng writes: > > So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. > the real result shod be eliminate /usr. Guys, please don't push unnessary changes and policies to the user. Let each and everyone be the master of his/her own systems. Just because debian wants to go that route doesn't mean it has to be engraved as a policy for devuan. Regards, /Karl Hammar ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Le 13/11/2021 à 20:46, Steve Litt a écrit : > k...@aspodata.se said on Sat, 13 Nov 2021 12:42:51 +0100 (CET) > >> Steve Litt: >>> John Morris via Dng said on Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:26:52 -0600 On Tue, 2021-11-09 at 01:56 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> ... The size of the OS is just so small now, compared to storage media and data files. Even a small SSD will easily hold all of /usr for all but the most bloated installs on old obsolete storage media. So simply including /usr in the root filesystem makes sense for almost all use cases. >> Size is not the only reason. >> You might want to have a separation for other reason. >> >> ... >>> Which brings up another beef I have: Why don't they build Ext4 and >>> maybe a couple other mainstream filesystems into the kernel, so if I >>> want, I can boot without initramfs? What would it cost? >> ... >> >> I use it all the time. >> >> Just do it yourself, it just cost you a little time, or do you >> volunteer to maintain a such kernel for devuan ? > Hi Karl, > > I think it's more than just a little time. Every time the kernel > updates, you need to get the new kernel's source, recompile, and > replace the new kernel. > > It *is* an interesting idea though. > AFAIR you can install a Debian/Devuan system without installing a kernel package. I did it still a decade ago on Powerpc-based SBCs: I compiled my own kernel and built my own initramfs and it prepared the system in a way that mimicked what Debian was expecting to find after the pivot-root. I did it with a custom initramfs because the boards were diskless but you can always do all this initial preparation from a dedicated partition if you prefer. The thing is after that you must switch to Debian proper by a pivot-root or switch-root. AFAIR, what the Debian init sequence (starting after pivot-root) expects is to find /, /proc /sys, /run and /dev already mounted. And for what regards the kernel, you upgrade it at your own pace, following your own needs. It is essentially decoupled from the rest of the distro. -- Didier -- Didier -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
k...@aspodata.se said on Sat, 13 Nov 2021 22:28:02 +0100 (CET) >James Cloos: >> > John Morris via Dng writes: >> > So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. >> the real result shod be eliminate /usr. > >Guys, please don't push unnessary changes and policies >to the user. Let each and everyone be the master of his/her >own systems. Ex-actly! > >Just because debian wants to go that route doesn't mean >it has to be engraved as a policy for devuan. If it's possible to diverge from Debian's usr merge with Devuan's given (wo)manpower, I agree. Starting somewhere in the 00's, Debian started making a lot of bad decisions. By the way, for the person who really wants the usr merge, wouldn't the conversion from an unmerged system consist of two mass copies and a few symlinks? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Steve Litt - 13.11.21, 23:24:51 CET: > By the way, for the person who really wants the usr merge, wouldn't > the conversion from an unmerged system consist of two mass copies and > a few symlinks? No. At least not if you like dpkg to be working fine. As I noted before, see: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Saturday, 13 November at 22:31, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 13/11/2021 à 20:46, Steve Litt a écrit : (snip) Hi Karl, I think it's more than just a little time. Every time the kernel updates, you need to get the new kernel's source, recompile, and replace the new kernel. It *is* an interesting idea though. AFAIR you can install a Debian/Devuan system without installing a kernel package. I did it still a decade ago on Powerpc-based SBCs: I compiled my own kernel and built my own initramfs and it prepared the system in a way that mimicked what Debian was expecting to find after the pivot-root. I did it with a custom initramfs because the boards were diskless but you can always do all this initial preparation from a dedicated partition if you prefer. The thing is after that you must switch to Debian proper by a pivot-root or switch-root. (snip) For what it's worth, I can confirm this : I ran a BeagleBoneBlack build of Devuan for a while and was rather surprised one day to discover that it had no kernel package installed at all. The kernel and initramfs where packed into a u-boot file and once loaded, the OS didn't care. - Antoine -- The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:19:08 +0100 Antoine via Dng wrote: > > For what it's worth, I can confirm this : I ran a BeagleBoneBlack > build of Devuan for a while and was rather surprised one day to > discover that it had no kernel package installed at all. The kernel > and initramfs where packed into a u-boot file and once loaded, the OS > didn't care. As I use to do a minimal *.bian install on my SoC hardware, which I afterwards move to the Devuan repositories, while keeping the related original "firmware" repository, I must confess that the whole "embedded"-thing is still somewhat unclear to me, at least regarding kernel and firmware updates. I'd be more than happy to get a hint towards an honest introduction to this topic. Libre Grüße, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Le 16/11/2021 à 01:44, Florian Zieboll via Dng a écrit : > On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:19:08 +0100 > Antoine via Dng wrote: >> For what it's worth, I can confirm this : I ran a BeagleBoneBlack >> build of Devuan for a while and was rather surprised one day to >> discover that it had no kernel package installed at all. The kernel >> and initramfs where packed into a u-boot file and once loaded, the OS >> didn't care. > As I use to do a minimal *.bian install on my SoC hardware, which I > afterwards move to the Devuan repositories, while keeping the related > original "firmware" repository, I must confess that the whole > "embedded"-thing is still somewhat unclear to me, at least regarding kernel > and firmware updates. I'd be more than happy to get a hint towards an honest > introduction to this topic. > This takes some learning by experimentation. The first lesson is to install a Devuan distro in an empty directory which will become the root directory of the new system. Then you can use it by the mean of chroot. The way to install the distro in this directory is debootstrap. Debootstrap, as its name tells, is the bootstrap of the installation of a Debian distro. When you execute chroot, you change the whole userspace, but you still run the same kernel. From your chroot you can continue the install wih apt-get. There are other ways to install a distro than debootstrap, but debootstrap is usefull to learn. Of course, if you want to install the distro for another architecture, you must use debootstrap --foreign and, then you cannot switch to it with chroot. It's a little more work and you need a kernel and understanding how the kernel passes control to userspace. To compile the kernel, download a source from kernel.org, look at howtos and readme files, prepare for a build "out of tree", start from the config of a known kernel, like the one you are currently running, run menuconfig (eg) and compile. There are a lot of tricks to learn but you can only learn them by experimentation I cannot list all of them because I used to do that many years ago. It's time-consuming but, after that you fill more comfortable. Another experiment with great fun is to just install busybox in a chroot. Build a monolithic version of Busybox statically linked against musl libc and "install" it with symbolic links. You get a fully functional non-GUI Linux OS; it's simply amazing. Just Busybox + kernel can also be the starting point of an install. To summarize, a linux OS needs kernel + some userspace application. To go further, the first thing the application must do is to mount /proc and /sys. If you have a hotplugger (eudev for Debian, mdev for Busybox), then you should also mount /dev and /dev/pts and launch the hotplugger. This applies if the OS is standalone; in a chroot, just mount these /proc, /sys, /dev, /dev/pts as copies of the ones of the main OS, using mount --bind. I wish to every Linux fan to live this adventure. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Sat, 13 Nov 2021 17:24:51 -0500 - Steve Litt : > k...@aspodata.se said on Sat, 13 Nov 2021 22:28:02 +0100 (CET) > > >James Cloos: > >> > John Morris via Dng writes: > >> > So yes, it is time to eliminate /bin, /sbin and /lib. > >> the real result shod be eliminate /usr. > > > >Guys, please don't push unnessary changes and policies > >to the user. Let each and everyone be the master of his/her > >own systems. > > Ex-actly! > > > > >Just because debian wants to go that route doesn't mean > >it has to be engraved as a policy for devuan. > > If it's possible to diverge from Debian's usr merge with Devuan's given > (wo)manpower, I agree. I totally agree. > Starting somewhere in the 00's, Debian started > making a lot of bad decisions. Indeed. > By the way, for the person who really wants the usr merge, wouldn't the > conversion from an unmerged system consist of two mass copies and a few > symlinks? > > SteveT Unfortunately things seem to be rather more complex, as some people have pointed out in this discussion: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 23:29:16 +0100 - Martin Steigerwald : > Steve Litt - 13.11.21, 23:24:51 CET: > > By the way, for the person who really wants the usr merge, wouldn't > > the conversion from an unmerged system consist of two mass copies and > > a few symlinks? > > No. > > At least not if you like dpkg to be working fine. As I noted before, see: > > https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr My suspected is that the (totally unecessary) usr-merge decision made by Debian will force (almost) all its derivatives to adapt even if they despite. This is because maintaining a derived distribution rejecting usr-merge would become too complex and onerous... Best regards al3xu5 -- Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design restrictions! Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8 B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B pgppt2vdPgowm.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 07:42:18PM +0100, al3xu5 via Dng wrote: > > My suspected is that the (totally unecessary) usr-merge decision made by > Debian will force (almost) all its derivatives to adapt even if they > despite. > > This is because maintaining a derived distribution rejecting usr-merge > would become too complex and onerous... Possibly as difficult as changing the entire OS *to* usr-merge. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On 2014-12-21 01:23, T.J. Duchene wrote: On 12/20/2014 6:35 PM, Ruben Safir wrote: as anyone know, I hate what systemd has done to the GNU/Linux ecosystem however one project that is put together in order to work out a system without systemd, http://debianfork.org/, Devuan, really needs to be avoided, at least unless some responsibly leadership emergers. Frankly, all I am here to do is chat code with people on the list, unless I see or hear of some actual development. The VUA's private lives, politics and personal business is none of my affair. So far the list isn't helping me work out what's going on :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
re all, On 21 December 2014 10:03:29 CET, JP wrote: > >So far the list isn't helping me work out what's going on :) soon there will be an update, as of the accusations of threath now, mr.Safir obviously has a condition that we cannot help. meanwhile he is managing to delete all mentions of my past work from wikipedia and spread insults and defamations while keeps alling this a fraud. This is once again something other educated critics of systemd have faced in the past. if I will need to defend myself from this, I will do it in legal ways obviously, and I will not involve this project. therefore once again please do not reply to trolls and if you write independently about this and other systemd related episodes please do not make any personal threats or insults of any kind. thanks, best wishes ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 10:24:52AM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > re all, > > On 21 December 2014 10:03:29 CET, JP wrote: > > > > >So far the list isn't helping me work out what's going on :) > > > soon there will be an update, > > as of the accusations of threath now, mr.Safir obviously has a condition that > we cannot help. > > meanwhile he is managing to delete all mentions of my past work from > wikipedia and > spread insults and defamations while keeps alling this a fraud. > This is once again something other educated critics of systemd have faced in > the past. > > > if I will need to defend myself from this, I will do it in legal ways > obviously, > and I will not involve this project. therefore once again please do not reply > to trolls > and if you write independently about this and other systemd related episodes > please do not make any personal threats or insults of any kind. > > thanks, > best wishes > Whatever, Denis, but you've been warned about trying to harm me or my children and you just made the wrong decision. This is a real and genuine threat on the part of you and/or representives of your company or associates. http://hackingthesystem4fun.blogspot.com/2014/12/ruben-safir-busca-que-devuan-sea.html You've been making an error in thinking that I might somehow sue you. If anything happens, it will not be civil lawyer that you will need, but a criminal lawyer. Your refusal to public denounce this call to hurt me and my children is collaberation in criminal activity. I wouldn't do it if I was you. You approved of this activity, and helped organize it. Your refusal to public denounce this call to hurt me and my children is collaberation in criminal activity. I wouldn't do it if I was you. You approved of this activity, and helped organize it. And you refuse to denounce it. Whatever damage your activities invoke, they will end up on your doorstep. Ruben Safir > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
Greetings. On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 07:35:44PM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote: > What was finally discovered is that a man named Denis Roji is behind > this project. He is in Amsterdam, one of my favorite places, but > originally from Italy. He is associated with some strongly anti-semetic > radicals who popped their head up in the thread, but were ignored by me. >[snip] >[damn big snip] Although I'm generally tolerant and respectful of every nature of being in this world, reading people like you, who self-nominate as paladins of the Israelitic people and whom in its holy name allows him/herself to spit this kind of bullshit, I really can't help but being sympathethic with neonazis. Would you mind to shut the hell up? I'm tryna think. FYI, Jaromil is Denis Roio, not Roji. Probably you cannot really sue anyone, seen your appalling persecutorial behaviour, but maybe your legal tutor would need the correct name to apologize on your behalf... -- Teodoro Santoni ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On 2014-12-21 09:24, Jaromil wrote: re all, soon there will be an update, Thanks for that I'm not getting involved in the other thing, bad choice of threads to reply to ;) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On 12/21/2014 09:25 AM, Teodoro Santoni wrote: > > I really can't help but being sympathethic with neonazis. > Yikes! :^) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
Delurking for a moment. On 21/12/2014 15:25, Teodoro Santoni wrote: > I really can't help but being sympathethic with neonazis. I don't think that the appropriate way of dealing with a troll trying to flame the shit out of us is making inflammatory and distasteful statements. Please, refrain from posting this kind of statements on this list in the future. Back to lurking. -- Matteo Panella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On 12/21/2014 04:24 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > if I will need to defend myself from this, I will do it in legal ways > obviously, and I will not involve this project. therefore once again > please do not reply to trolls and if you write independently about > this and other systemd related episodes please do not make any > personal threats or insults of any kind. > I have to admit: I've been following the list and Ruben's posts and I think by in large he makes good points. Particularly when it comes to donations. I think he's expressing concerns that have caused others to quietly dismiss the project and do more productive things while people on this list continue to go on about what amounts to nothing so far. It is fine to have a loosely organized and headless organization where we chat about how much we hate systemd, speculate about naming conventions, etc. It is another to ask for donations to an effort with nebulous leadership and goals. I like the initial Debian announcement as an example of how to start a project: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.os.linux.development/Md3Modzg5TU/xty88y5OLaMJ It states "Here I am and this is what I've done. Jump on board if you like." I'm not saying this is a scam but I can't quite say it isn't as there is no way to judge who's doing what from the website. I think Devuan should have held off opening a public mailing list until there was an initial release to serve as a starting point for development, demonstrate who's doing what, and to establish legitimacy. -ayan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
re all, On 21 December 2014 18:26:50 CET, Matteo Panella wrote: >I don't think that the appropriate way of dealing with a troll trying >to flame the shit out of us is making inflammatory and distasteful >statements. > >Please, refrain from posting this kind of statements on this list in >the future. I'd rather add one more to the blacklist ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
So far the list isn't helping me work out what's going on :) May I make a suggestion? No matter what you do, you are going to have to deal with trolls. I'd so something new that other projects haven't done. I would leave the public list in tact, but at the membership's discretion, invite people that you feel can seriously contribute to Devuan's future to a public, but invitation only list. If that is not possible given constraints, you can always make the list private. There work can be done, and announcements can be placed on the public list. That way you can be without trolling as much as possible. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On 12/21/2014 02:53 PM, Ayan George wrote: > > I have to admit: I've been following the list and Ruben's posts and I > think by in large he makes good points. > *** I think you're right. But his good points are entirely lost with his aggressive, dismissive, defamatory attitude. Despite that horrible attitude, Jaromil has been addressing all of his dark points in a polite manner, and the berserk is still striking. > > It is fine to have a loosely organized and headless organization where > we chat about how much we hate systemd, speculate about naming > conventions, etc. It is another to ask for donations to an effort with > nebulous leadership and goals. > *** I don't think anyone here hates anything. Hate is certainly not the right attitude when the goal is to provide choice. People are free to donate or not. Most do because they know who they are dealing with, and there's no mystery about it, contrary to what Ruben Safir wants to believe. He would be right to be circumspect regarding whether he wants to donate or not, or whether the project is legitimate or not, but he's wrong to come all weapons clear and striking before anything can be said. > > I think Devuan should have held off opening a public mailing list until > there was an initial release to serve as a starting point for > development, demonstrate who's doing what, and to establish legitimacy. > *** It's not what happened. Welcome to the Latin world, where you first make a lot of silly noises and gestures with lots of people, and you end up with a delicious pizza to share with friends and family :) The advantage I see to that method rests in the genuinely collective effort to establish a collective way of solving issues, as opposed to the super-heroic way of the enlightened individual bearing all on his shoulders and asking for followers. The foundational myths of projects differ with the culture they came from. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On 12/21/2014 02:38 PM, hellekin wrote: On 12/21/2014 02:53 PM, Ayan George wrote: I have to admit: I've been following the list and Ruben's posts and I think by in large he makes good points. *** I think you're right. But his good points are entirely lost with his aggressive, dismissive, defamatory attitude. Despite that horrible attitude, Jaromil has been addressing all of his dark points in a polite manner, and the berserk is still striking. It is fine to have a loosely organized and headless organization where we chat about how much we hate systemd, speculate about naming conventions, etc. It is another to ask for donations to an effort with nebulous leadership and goals. *** I don't think anyone here hates anything. Hate is certainly not the right attitude when the goal is to provide choice. People are free to donate or not. Most do because they know who they are dealing with, and there's no mystery about it, contrary to what Ruben Safir wants to believe. To be clear: I used "hate" as a rhetorical device. Although there is a lot of sincere talk about giving choice, you have to admit that there are quite a few posts from people who really dislike systemd (if not hate it). Anyway -- maybe it is a cultural difference but when it comes to bootstrapping projects I believe the hacker / programmer / FOSS / whatever subculture prefers to judge projects by their output and so far Devuan has very little to speak of. I don't want to belabour this though. I genuinely thought Devuan was interesting. Finally I think there is a real problem with the doxing of Ruben Safir. The so-called "hackers" used public information that he himself publishes on his personal website so it didn't require any more than a little googling. Still -- I think whatever leadership Devuan has should have denounced it by now. That's all! Carry on and I'll go back to lurking. -ayan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
Hi, On 21/12/2014 21:43, Ayan George wrote: > Still -- I think whatever leadership Devuan has should have denounced it > by now. Literally nobody was aware of that until he himself brought that up amidst his (usual) threats. And I think that Jaromil made it clear what the position of the project is: > and if you write independently about this and other systemd related episodes > please do not make any personal threats or insults of any kind. Nobody here condones doxing or other unsavory activities - quite the opposite: the reason most of the people working on Devuan are acting "in the shadows" is because they fear this kind of retribution (or worse) for their technical positions. It would be absurd even implying that the project endorses the very same (borderline?) criminal behaviour that it's trying to shield its members against. Lest you think that I'm blowing things out of proportion, I can tell you my personal experience, even though I'm a perfect John Doe in the FLOSS community: I got more insults for my position on systemd in the last few months (even from people I deeply respected - and I still don't know *why* they felt the need to openly insult me when I raised purely technical concerns...) than all the shit I got from randos I K:lined as IRC operator in my previous life. I would be a hypocrite if I'd approve such actions against other people. > That's all! Carry on and I'll go back to lurking. Carrying on as planned (mostly, aside from some major sidetracking). Expect an update on libudev1 real soon now™, since most of my day job deadlines are finally over. Regards, -- Matteo Panella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
dear Ayan, On Sun, 21 Dec 2014, Ayan George wrote: > To be clear: I used "hate" as a rhetorical device. Although there is > a lot of sincere talk about giving choice, you have to admit that > there are quite a few posts from people who really dislike systemd (if > not hate it). This is true. At Dyne.org we do appreciate anyone contributing to a constructive or even critical discussion, but aggression, sexism, racism, hate speech of sorts and personal attacks were never and will not be ever tolerated. Me and other VUAs believe that with the Devuan project itself we are contributing in this direction. > Anyway -- maybe it is a cultural difference but when it comes to > bootstrapping projects I believe the hacker / programmer / FOSS / > whatever subculture prefers to judge projects by their output and so > far Devuan has very little to speak of. We are starting. One can give us the time and trust we will do something - or not! But already going around calling "fraudsters" the few public representatives and the associated organization of this project is a bit beyond the line of reasoning, I guess you will agree. > I don't want to belabour this though. I genuinely thought Devuan was > interesting. Fine. I hope you will have another look later on, at the time of the Debian Jessie release for instance. > Finally I think there is a real problem with the doxing of Ruben > Safir. The so-called "hackers" used public information that he > himself publishes on his personal website so it didn't require any > more than a little googling. Indeed. But he is now claiming that I'm the author of a website containing threats against him and his family, which is truly not the case. Seen from a certain point of view all this drama is entirely his construction: came here, put forward criticism, heavily insulted the first person replying him (me), posted his home address with a "come and get me" sign, then now he is accusing me in public and private of being responsible of anything that could happen to him or his kids. Sincerely: I have been looking at all this drama unfolding in front of my eyes without doing much else than patiently replying to his criticism with facts and details (because I also believe it can be pertinent to ask) and, only after that, silently banning him on behalf of a collective decision for his insults and aggression. So now, in his opinion, I should stand responsible for his peace of mind? I am not a psychologist, but I do recognize some patterns in this sequence of events. Look: anyone can just try to "ruin my life" (sarcastic quotes) this way, but still I don't believe I'm the origin of the problem: this is not a condition I'm responsible for! and this is a public space so: can happen. For what I'm concerned, since mr.Safir has already a list of "enemies of this and that" on his website, he could have as well constructed all of this autonomously, because - now yes, dramatically enough - that's the mental space in which he is living in. Said that, I will write it once again and without cut & paste: whoever is responsible for putting hatred websites in retaliation to mr.Safir's aggression: please refrain from doing that!! take them off and forget the man. I'm not hurt by his aggression and I don't want him threatened or even worst hurt in any way. And please in your life always think how to reach peaceful solutions to such conflicts, because in this and other cases it is the aggressor who is alone and perhaps the one who suffers the most and there is no gain for anyone in making him/her suffer more. > Still -- I think whatever leadership Devuan has should have denounced > it by now. There is a lot going on on this project and a new monthly press release is almost ready now. We will address this in it too. If you have any other reasonable suggestion on steps we can take to give peace of mind to this man, please let us know and rest assured we will do our best. ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Fork and Fraud
On 12/22/2014 11:04 AM, Jaromil wrote: > > > There is a lot going on on this project and a new monthly press release > is almost ready now. We will address this in it too. If you have any > other reasonable suggestion on steps we can take to give peace of mind > to this man, please let us know and rest assured we will do our best. > > Awesome! Seriously: Keep up the good work. -ayan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 02:23:41AM +, Noel David Torres Taño wrote: > > The question is: is it worth to continue the Devuan Weekly News effort > when "the people leading the project" issue a different news page without > coordinating with DWN? I'd say yes. > Instead of digesting for you the week on the mailing list, I want you to > think carefully and say if Devuan Weekly News > > a) is useful > b) should be coordinated with such announcements The difference between Devuan Weekly News and project leaders page is the difference between journalism and official announcements. I'd be sorry to see DWN news stifled now, before there's enough experience with it to learn how it would be most useful. Experiment. > > Will there be an Issue V? I hope so. > > Thanks for reading so far You're welcome. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 02:23:41AM +, Noel David Torres Taño wrote: > The question is: is it worth to continue the Devuan Weekly News effort > when "the people leading the project" issue a different news page without > coordinating with DWN? > > Instead of digesting for you the week on the mailing list, I want you to > think carefully and say if Devuan Weekly News > > a) is useful > b) should be coordinated with such announcements > > Will there be an Issue V? > Noel, personally i hope you will continue the DWN, i found it usefull. In my personal view there is no collision between our mountly VUA update on devuan progress and your DWN, i see them as complementary even with no coordination ( but i agree that a little bit of coordination can be usefull and help you in doing this ). As far i can see, i see our mountly devuan progress update as a sort of "VUAs say what they are doing and the status of the project", where your DWN instead says what the community around devuan is talking about and take a picture of what day by day is happening. I really hope there will be an DWN V, VI VII and so on :) Thanks anyway for those first four DWN you already sent :) -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
On 12/23/2014 11:23 PM, Noel David Torres Taño wrote:
>
> Instead of digesting for you the week on the mailing list, I want you to
> think carefully and say if Devuan Weekly News
>
> a) is useful
> b) should be coordinated with such announcements
>
*** Noel, I say yes to both points. Contrary to what Franco and Jaromil
said, I think the announcement should have been coordinated with you,
and hope the next ones will become an integral part of the weekly
update. In a nascent community, separating users and volunteers from
the developers is a mistake. All are producers and there's no community
if it starts with creating an inner circle. I'm not advocating for a
tyranny of structurelessness, especially as the VUA collective already
exists. I'm advocating for an expanded view of technology that is not
only a meritocracy of elite hackers, but the result of collective
solutions invented to solve social needs.
So no, there's no competition between announcement from the VUA
collective and the weekly news from the community. But a little
coordination would have been in order to recognize the effort made so
far by Noel.
> Will there be an Issue V?
>
*** I certainly hope it will. As you know, I've proposed to rename the
Devuan Weekly News in order to free the namespace already occupied by
the existing Debian Weekly News. As both project co-exist, it would be
useful if they could refer to each other without confusion. The Devuan
Weekly News is not yet on the wiki because I was waiting for Noel's
decision to create it. I already reported the first 3 issues to the
without-systemd wiki, but stopped as I was instructed that a new wiki at
git.devuan.org was available.
I propose we follow up on Jaromil's proposal to setup a dedicated
project for the weekly news in the Devuan gitlab, and make the name
change for 2015, which leaves another issue to think about it ("Last
Week in Devuan", or LWD was my alternate proposal).
Mediawiki, that powers without-systemd, offers templates and
transclusion, which gitlab doesn't, so it might be easier to produce a
consistent newsletter using that features. On the other hand, gitlab
allows using Orgmode (if it's activated) or Markdown, which would enable
a single version for mail and wiki (using the reference notation for
links.) The latter has my preference for the sake of simplicity.
Cheers, and Happy Grav'Mass!
==
hk
--
_ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
___
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
On 24/12/14 02:23, Noel David Torres Taño wrote: > Instead of digesting for you the week on the mailing list, I want you to > think carefully and say if Devuan Weekly News > > a) is useful > b) should be coordinated with such announcements The way I see it, DWN provides a synopsis of what happened and what was discussed, whilst _Update from Veteran Unix Admins_ is a synopsis of what will happen, and what is being implemented. Rephrased: * DWN is the past and how it collides with the present; * _Update from Veteran Unix Admins_ is the future, and how it collides with the present; jonathon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
IMHO, the right thing to do is something like Planet GNOME (http://planet.gnome.org/), once 1.0 is released and more developers join. I think it's a great way to see what's going on with a FOSS project and get in touch with developers. For now, I think newsletters are great. I really like DWN. I see it a less technical newsletter, which is less about development (e.g new packages in the repository) and organizational stuff, but more about recent events end-users care about (e.g upcoming releases, a wallpaper contest or even gatherings). 2c, Dima On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 03:25:32 -0500 "jonathon" wrote: > > > On 24/12/14 02:23, Noel David Torres Taño wrote: > > > Instead of digesting for you the week on the mailing list, I want you to > > think carefully and say if Devuan Weekly News > > > > a) is useful > > b) should be coordinated with such announcements > > The way I see it, DWN provides a synopsis of what happened and what was > discussed, whilst _Update from Veteran Unix Admins_ is a synopsis of > what will happen, and what is being implemented. > > Rephrased: > * DWN is the past and how it collides with the present; > * _Update from Veteran Unix Admins_ is the future, and how it collides > with the present; > > > > jonathon > -- Dima Krasner ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
I'm late to the party but I do hope that DWN (or whatever the name can become) will continue. I appreciate the work that goes into it, digests to make things a bit easier at times. On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 7:24 PM, dima wrote: > > IMHO, the right thing to do is something like Planet GNOME > (http://planet.gnome.org/), once 1.0 is released and more developers join. I > think it's a great way to see what's going on with a FOSS project and get in > touch with developers. > > For now, I think newsletters are great. I really like DWN. I see it a less > technical newsletter, which is less about development (e.g new packages in > the repository) and organizational stuff, but more about recent events > end-users care about (e.g upcoming releases, a wallpaper contest or even > gatherings). > > 2c, > Dima > > On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 03:25:32 -0500 > "jonathon" wrote: > >> >> >> On 24/12/14 02:23, Noel David Torres Taño wrote: >> >> > Instead of digesting for you the week on the mailing list, I want you to >> > think carefully and say if Devuan Weekly News >> > >> > a) is useful >> > b) should be coordinated with such announcements >> >> The way I see it, DWN provides a synopsis of what happened and what was >> discussed, whilst _Update from Veteran Unix Admins_ is a synopsis of >> what will happen, and what is being implemented. >> >> Rephrased: >> * DWN is the past and how it collides with the present; >> * _Update from Veteran Unix Admins_ is the future, and how it collides >> with the present; >> >> >> >> jonathon >> > > > -- > Dima Krasner > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News IV
Noel contacted me for the upcoming issue. I guess we could have a talk about it on #devuan-news on freenode's IRC if you like. I don't know yet his plans but I'm eager to give a hand. == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News VII
> *** Jessie without systemd > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150108.222844.f83bac6d.en.html > > The TRIOS team introduces their semi-rolling Debian Jessie based > OS that aims to work without Systemd. It still uses udev at this > point. It looks very similar to Devuan, using OpenRC as the Maybe i am wrong, but It seems that funny things happen here at devuan weekly news...something that exists right now, "looks very similar" to something that even not exist yet :) Anyway, NHF :) Cheers ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News VII
On 01/13/2015 09:28 AM, Dragan FOSS wrote: >> *** Jessie without systemd >> >> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150108.222844.f83bac6d.en.html >> >> The TRIOS team introduces their semi-rolling Debian Jessie based >> OS that aims to work without Systemd. It still uses udev at this >> point. It looks very similar to Devuan, using OpenRC as the > > Maybe i am wrong, but It seems that funny things happen here at devuan weekly > news...something that exists right now, > "looks very similar" to something that even not exist yet :) > *** It was not intended for publication but was a reading note. The process of team publication is not yet ready: it actually needs team work. What was meant is that the projects are similar in their intentions. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News VII
> *** It was not intended for publication but was a reading note. The > process of team publication is not yet ready: it actually needs team > work. What was meant is that the projects are similar in their intentions. > > == > hk Ok, thanks for explanation, and sorry if i misunderstood something. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan foundational philosophy: was greets
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:51:52AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 18:19:56 + > KatolaZ wrote: > > > > Devuan is the final name (at the moment! :P) and is really > > happening. It is a fork of Debian with the clear intention of creating > > and maintaining a Debian in which init freedom is guaranteed (which > > initially will boil down to eradicate systemd and all its companions > > from Debian). > > Hi KatolaZ, > > Naturally, my crystal ball is no better than anybody else's, but my > prediction is that as time goes on, Devuan's intention will become a > more generalized superset of init freedom. I'm predicting that in the > long run, it will become DIY freedom, with emphasis on small, standard > parts with known, thin interfaces. > Yes, but let's wait for the first stable release, and then we can start talking about what for the moment are just "shadows of aliens", as greatly summarised by hellekin ;) Best KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan foundational philosophy: was greets
-Original Message- From: Steve Litt [mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 9:52 AM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: [Dng] Devuan foundational philosophy: was greets Hi KatolaZ, Naturally, my crystal ball is no better than anybody else's, but my prediction is that as time goes on, Devuan's intention will become a more generalized superset of init freedom. I'm predicting that in the long run, it will become DIY freedom, with emphasis on small, standard parts with known, thin interfaces. Of course, systemd was the most glaring and urgent threat to DIY freedom, so we need to purge that silliness immediately, but I think we'll eventually go farther. As a matter of fact, my understanding is our default DE will be Xfce, not Gnome: A fact that will doubtlessly cause hand-wringing amongst those believing in the tightly-glued, unified system. SteveT Hey Steve! In the same vein as your message, I would like to offer a more specific suggestion. One of the biggest problems with Linux in general is that it is like hitting target. That is why LTS versions, and Linus' stance on kernel compatibility are so important. They provide a more stable ABI/API for development and servers. If Devuan could commit itself to enforcing a specific version of APIs with each release, I could see Devuan being hailed for stability and standardization. Granted, for the most part, that is what LTS versions already are doing anyway, but frankly Linux documentation sucks. If it was well documented and advertised as a feature, that Devuan promised to support said API's for this release, I think that would go a good distance to building confidence in Devuan, especially for servers and developers. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan foundational philosophy: was greets
Le 10/03/2015 15:51, Steve Litt a écrit : On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 18:19:56 + KatolaZ wrote: >Devuan is the final name (at the moment! :P) and is really >happening. It is a fork of Debian with the clear intention of creating >and maintaining a Debian in which init freedom is guaranteed (which >initially will boil down to eradicate systemd and all its companions >from Debian). Hi KatolaZ, Naturally, my crystal ball is no better than anybody else's, but my prediction is that as time goes on, Devuan's intention will become a more generalized superset of init freedom. I'm predicting that in the long run, it will become DIY freedom, with emphasis on small, standard parts with known, thin interfaces. Of course, systemd was the most glaring and urgent threat to DIY freedom, so we need to purge that silliness immediately, but I think we'll eventually go farther. As a matter of fact, my understanding is our default DE will be Xfce, not Gnome: A fact that will doubtlessly cause hand-wringing amongst those believing in the tightly-glued, unified system. As a DIY fan, I support fully this vision. Further more, I think the concept of DIY-friendlyness, matches the principles of free software pretty well, to the point it could be used as a policy-checker. Eg: Is Systemd DIY-friendly? --> No, therefore accept it only in non-free repository. Is Systemd anti-DIY? --> Yes, therefore eradicate it. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan foundational philosophy: was greets
On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 01:55:30PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > As a DIY fan, I support fully this vision. Further more, I think > the concept of DIY-friendlyness, matches the principles of free > software pretty well, to the point it could be used as a > policy-checker. Eg: > > Is Systemd DIY-friendly? --> No, therefore accept it only in > non-free repository. > Is Systemd anti-DIY? --> Yes, therefore eradicate it. > Well, that's a quite peculiar way of defining DIY, and I believe DIY-frinedlyness is not exactly the point here, right? If you consider any non-trivial piece of software in a GNU/Linux distribution, then you might find it DIY-friendly or not, according to your level of experience/knowledge/patience. The simplest example is the Linux Kernel: from a theoretical point of view, anybody could prepare a DIY version of the Linux kernel, but if you take 1000 GNU/Linux users right now and ask them to compile a minimal working kernel for their hardware configuration in just one attempt, then you will get 850 kenels hanging at boot, 130 missing important drivers, 18 missing just ancillary things and only 2 of them actually working as they should. Does this make the Linux kernel non-DIY-friendly according to your definition? We could make thousands of similar examples, from the manual configuration of X to the setup of a working firewall configuration form the command line. You could consider any of these things as "DIY-friendly" from your point of view, but other users will almost certainly disagree. IMHO the problem of systemd is that it is just a crappy idea implemented in a crappy way. Nothing to do with DIY-friendlyness. Just plain ignorance of KISS and DOTADIW :) My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan News, volume 02, issue XXIV
# Devuan News Issue XXIV __Volume 02, Week 19, Devuan Week 24__ Released Tuesday, 12015/05/12 [HE](why-he) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-024 ## Editorial You may have noticed that some time has elapsed since the last issue was published. We are sorry for that delay. One of the reasons is the lack of free time as the newsletter is a volunteer project and there is a lot of hard work going on with the developers. But *Devuan Weekly News* hasn't disappeared, we're still here. And now we are officially dropping *'Weekly'* from our name. For two reasons. The first reason is to avoid confusion with the Debian Weekly News (also DWN). The Devuan newsletter will now be known as Devuan News (DN). The second reason is the lack of (wo)man power. The DN will be published when it's published depending on our collective circumstances and inclinations. A final note goes to thank all the volunteers working on the Devuan News. *You* make this possible. @etech3 ## Lately in Devuan ### [vdev status update][3] Jude keeps delivering the goods with `vdev`. After having extracted `libudev` from `systemd 219` , he shares a difficulty with the initial idea of using `inotify(2)` to monitor devices changes, and announces a workaround plan. Any feedback on the above development plan is welcome, especially if a simpler, more robust approach can be found. Thanks to all who followed [Jude's instruction to provide testing information for vdev development][3a]. Keep'em coming! ### [Financial report, 1st trimester 2015][4] This report from @jaromil also includes a summary of the Devuan project's development. ### [Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?][5] There was a thread started by Anto which included several interesting responses: From jaromil - https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.173308.c2f664a8.en.html From Isaac Dunham - https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.235121.db200a9a.en.html ### [A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development][6] Anto posted on his Devuan installation via debootstrap. ### [Please stop vain discussion][7] Didier commented on yet another debate over whether Devuan should allow systemd usage or forbid it completely. @nextime responded with a statement about Devuan generic policy and systemd: > "The official position is we will support anything that can be packaged without hijacking the whole system to be installed. Actually systemd doesn't match this requirement, so, Devuan will not support it as long it doesn't radically change. Anyway we will not intentionally obstacle anyone that eventually wants to use it outside official Devuan release." ### [I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan][8] Several users (like Edward Bartolo and David Hare) reported their experiences with Devuan's new debootstrap. ### [Linux boot documentation][9] Steve Litt announced his latest oeuvre which generated an interesting technical discussion of the boot process. ### Are we there yet? There has been some chatter on and off the last few weeks (on the IRC channels) relating to the Q: "Has there been an official release of Devuan?" A: There is no official release as of yet, but a testable iso ([pre-alpha][pre-alpha] and a [vagrant][vagrant] version). Q: Are there any rough estimates for the first release? is it more like 2 months or more like a year? A: "When it's ready" :D nextime responded "when it is ready, but at least I can assure that it isn't a year". ## Devuan's Not Gnome DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project. - [Subscribe to the list][subscribe] - [Subscribe to the feed][atom-feed] - [Read online archives][archives] --- Read you soon! Devuan News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute][wiki]! + Created by Noel "@Envite" Torres + @hellekin (editor at large) + @golinux (word wrangler) + @lightbringer (AKA. MinceR, sentence fixaupper) + @DocScrutinizer05 (proofreader) + @etech3 (markdown master in training MMIT) -- [3]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150406.203624.a1b96212.en.html "vdev status update" [3a]: https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md "How to test vdev" [4]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.224708.236843dd.en.html "Financial report, 1st trimester 2015" [5]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.105746.fea9a964.en.html "Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?" [6]:https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150505.065520.2303aae4.en.html "A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development" [7]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20150506.194559.3168e0c6.en.html "Please stop vain discussion" [8]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.043143.ff8d2240.en.html "I used Devuan's debootstrap and installed Devuan" [9]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150504.144806.e841d24a.en.html "Linux boot documentation" [pre-alpha]: h
[Dng] Devuan Jessie repo (in the meantime)
Hey there, every-Devuan: Is this list just being unusually quiet, or is my email broken? Or is dng broken? Anyway, I have set up a repo to which I am frequently pushing new packages from git.devuan.org not yet served from packages.devuan.org. (And some new gnome packages as I strip and build them -- still working on getting that up and running, however.) You can use this repo in the meantime until Devuan gets a complete repository. My repo serves 32- and 64-bit x86 as well as the modified sources, so it should be easy for others to debuild the packages and serve them from your own repository, too. Considering that my server is just an old board sitting in my apartment which suffers from frequent power outages (and will suffer more due to neighbors running air during summer days), re-serving these packages elsewhere probably isn't a bad idea. Of note, I am serving the necessary xfce4 packages from the git.devuan.org. I am also serving pulseaudio, which I haven't seen in any of the other systemd-free repos. I know angband.pl also serves systemd-less xfce packages, but I don't see xfce4-session there, which does have systemd requirements. With the below apt/sources.list entry, I was able to install a fully functional Devuan xfce desktop. I'm using it right now! My repo just fills in some gaps. deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://pkg.realitysend.net/devuan meantime main deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.devuan.org/devuan jessie main deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main Get some more desktop-y filth by tacking on: deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian jessie contrib non-free Get the public key lazily: wget -O- http://pkg.realitysend.net/realitysend-archive-20150510.gpg | sudo apt-key add - And lookit: [jaret@ragnarok ~]$ dpkg -l '*systemd*' Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Architecture Description +++-==---= un systemd (no description available) un systemd-sysv (no description available) Sure, it still uses udev, sure, but otherwise pretty good! Enjoy! Jaret Cantu Started typing my work signature out of habit and fortunately caught myself ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan News, volume 02, issue XXV
# Devuan News Issue XXV __Volume 02, Week 20, Devuan Week 25__ Released Tuesday, 12015/05/19 [HE](why-he) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-025 ## Editorial As Spring gets closer to summer and the heat starts to rise (northern hemisphere centric), so does the work at Devuan. There is tons going on behind the scenes with many people working on pre-alpha builds. A couple of shout outs to golinux, hope your back is better, we miss you and to Centurion_Dan on the birth of his son, congrats! A big thank you goes to the volunteers working on the Devuan News. *You* make this possible. @etech3 ## Lately in Devuan ### [vdev status update][3] Jude Nelson posted his latest update for vdev Thanks to all who followed [Jude's instruction to provide testing information for vdev development][3a]. Keep'em coming! ### [stonix, a security tool][5] Roy Nielsen posted that a beta release of stonix, a security tool to give non-windows operating systems a base level of security based on government guideline and industry best practices. https://github.com/CSD-Public/stonix ### [eudev status][6] jaret posted on A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development that he had pushed eudev to the git (https://git.devuan.org/jaretcantu/eudev). >I used eudev version 1.9 since it is based on systemd 215. That is the udev/systemd version used by Jessie, so it just seemed to make a lot more sense. ### [How to bust into a broken Qemu VM][7] Steve started How to bust into a broken Qemu VM. >This isn't precisely about Devuan, but given the number of us testing >Devuan in Qemu VMs, it would probably be very handy information. > >When you accidentally bork a Qemu VM such that it won't boot to a >virtual terminal, how do you bust back in. I doubt System Rescue CD >would help, unless you can boot from the "cdrom" but somehow also >access the existing "hard disk" borked VM image. > >So how do you bust back into a borked VM? NOTE: Steve marked this solved! ### [Document on using Qemu for Linux DIY][8] Steve Litt posted "Document on using Qemu for Linux DIY" >Hi all, > >I just finished a very basic document on using Qemu for Linux DIY, which I tech-edited using Valentines Devuan: > >http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/diy/qemu.htm> > >It's based on three shellscripts, and also contains instructions for sharing host and guest /tmp/xfer directory via sshfs. As you know, Qemu currently has no copy and paste between host and guest, so a shared directory's a great way to transfer copied text or screenshots. > >The shellscripts in this doc, perhaps modified by you, might be a timesaver for some of you who are repeatedly testing Devuan. > >Hope you like it. ## Devuan's Not Gnome DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project. - [Subscribe to the list][subscribe] - [Subscribe to the feed][atom-feed] - [Read online archives][archives] --- Read you soon! Devuan News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute][wiki]! + Created by Noel "@Envite" Torres + @hellekin (editor at large) + @golinux (word wrangler) + @lightbringer (AKA. MinceR, sentence fixaupper) + @DocScrutinizer05 (proofreader) + @etech3 (markdown master in training MMIT) --- Links to follow --- [3]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150514.032442.4939d09c.en.html "vdev status update" [3a]: https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev/blob/master/how-to-test.md "How to test vdev" [5]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150513.163344.525255d9.en.html "stonix, a security tool" [6]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150517.032838.0d000655.en.html "eudev status" [7]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150515.233757.4fd30ed5.en.html "How to bust into a broken Qemu VM" [8]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150514.231814.446caf18.en.html "Document on using Qemu for Linux DIY" [pre-alpha]: http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso [vagrant]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150307.011135.a710525c.en.html [subscribe]: https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng "Subscribe to DNG mailing list" [atom-feed]: http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/atom.xml "Subscribe to ATOM feed" [archives]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/dng.en.html "Read DNG List Archive" [Financial report]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150503.224708.236843dd.en.html "Financial report, 1st trimester 2015" [upcoming]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/upcoming-issue "Upcoming Issue" [wiki]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/home "Devuan News" [why-he]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/why-he ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on Raspberry Pi 2B
Florian Zieboll writes: [...] > check for systemd: > # apt-get install aptitude > # aptitude search '?installed' | grep systemd > # JFTR: dpkg -l will give you a list of installed packages and their descriptions so dpkg -l | grep systemd or dpkg -l | grep -i systemd should work for this, too. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on Raspberry Pi 2B
Hello again, just a hint for the resolute ones among us, as I think this hasn't been mentioned on this list yet: Adding the following lines to e.g. the file /etc/apt/preferences.d/avoid-systemd should make ultimately sure, that libsystemd0 will not be accidentally pulled in by some felted package: Package: libsystemd0 Pin: release o=Debian Pin-Priority: -1 Unfortunately apt does not handle this transparently, when failing to install some distant systemd dependant, but reports an unfixable dependency problem – pointing only at the very next dependency in the chain down to libsystemd0. The complete explained list of possible apt pin-priority categories from <0 to >1000 you can find in the apt_preferences(5) manpage. Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan 64 install: no root filesystem?
I've booted the Alpha2 iso but it doesn't seem to be able to find any
partitions. From the partition menu ("LVM" "Guided" or "Manual") I select
"Manual" but then get a dialog stating "No root file system defined". The
installer seems to be jumping ahead from partitioning to installing without
allowing me to setup partitions.
I have a 4G raw partition as /dev/sdb1 (formatted with ext4 and set 'active')
which I intend to use for "/" and then use LVM for /usr, /var, /home and /tmp.
I have Ubuntu installed on some of the LVM partitions and thought if Devuan is
not working for me, I can still boot back into the Ubuntu install so I don't
want to re-partition the entire disk as it would hose my current desktop setup.
Any way to manually kick off the install from the CLI ?
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on top of OpenVZ
Hi Emiliano, Am 06.11.2015 um 17:00 schrieb Emiliano Marini: > I have plans to migrate my OpenVZ powered VPS from Wheezy to Devuan 1.0 > Jessie following dev1fanboy's guide. > > Has someone tried Devuan on an OpenVZ container? I haven't tried Devuan specifically but upgrading between different distribution version in an OpenVZ container is usually a bad idea and doesn't work in most cases. Specifically if you are using a VPS based on the OpenVZ-Template supplied by Parallels/Odin, it is (for some strange reason) preconfigured with upstart. Upgrading such a system will usually result in the removal of upstart and then you won't be able to start your VPS again because OpenVZ doesn't find upstart any more. I didnt try upgrading while forcing upstart to stay installed but I guess it would fail anyway because of some other incompatibility (glibc/kernel or something else). The best and probably only way to get Devuan working in a OpenVZ-VPS would be if someone built an OpenVZ-template for it. Regards, Helmut ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on top of OpenVZ
Dear Hoshpak and Emiliano On November 6, 2015 7:45:31 PM GMT+01:00, Hoshpak wrote: >Hi Emiliano, >The best and probably only way to get Devuan working in a OpenVZ-VPS >would be if someone built an OpenVZ-template for it. It may be very easy to fork the OpenVZ template of Debian Wheezy, if they had one, didn't they? Ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on top of OpenVZ
Helmut, Jaromil, Thanks for your comments. Sadly I'm not very familiar with OpenVZ, I'm more a QEMU/KVM guy. Didn't know it wasn't safe to upgrade on an OpenVZ container :( Regards, Emiliano. On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Jaromil wrote: > Dear Hoshpak and Emiliano > > On November 6, 2015 7:45:31 PM GMT+01:00, Hoshpak > wrote: > >Hi Emiliano, > > >The best and probably only way to get Devuan working in a OpenVZ-VPS > >would be if someone built an OpenVZ-template for it. > > It may be very easy to fork the OpenVZ > template of Debian Wheezy, if they > had one, didn't they? > > Ciao > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] devuan-baseconf package versions and repositories
Hello, Before trying out Devuan I was perusing each devuan-baseconf version and found out that they differ on which Devuan repository gets written by default to sources.list. This is relevant if you're upgrading to Devuan from Debian Wheezy (oldstable). If you're running Debian stable, testing or unstable, then sources.list gets updated to the corresponding Devuan repository. BUT if you're running Wheezy, then the package's default repository gets set: 0.6.4+devuan1 = jessie 0.6.4+devuan2 = ascii 0.6.4+devuan3 = ceres So to upgrade Wheezy, devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb should be installed. This way it isn't needed to modify sources.list again, manually. I was about to install 0.6.4+devuan3 because 3>1 ;) AFAIK this hasn't been documented elsewhere? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] devuan ascii: libdbus-1-3 problems
I've been running devuan ascii on my laptop for some time. Mainly it works and upgrades without problems but libdbus-1-3 is stuck at v1.8.something-devuan and libdbus-1-3 and other stuff needs 1.9.13 or higher. It has been like that for some weeks - I assume that getting it all working is giving the developers a lot of work to do! xorg, vlc, pulseaudio etc on my system would upgrade if the right versions of libdbus-1-3 and dbus were available. After some thought I downloaded the dbus deb file from debian sid. Bad move! My system is trashed again! Never mind, I can do a fresh install. DaveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Weekly News LX (Errata)
On 01/04/2016 03:07 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: >> >> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060 >> >> tips about UUID's][2], Arnt Karlsen talked about the [purpose of > > ..er, I did not, I asked the (I believe timely) question > "..where did the "/media tradition" come from anyway? " > and thenafter it was Stephanie Daugherty who _answered_ > my question by talking about said purpose. > Thank you for this correction, Arnt. It's been corrected on the Web version. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Weekly News LX (Errata)
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 16:53:00 +, hellekin wrote in message <568aa36c.9010...@dyne.org>: > On 01/04/2016 03:07 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > >> > >> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060 > >> > >> tips about UUID's][2], Arnt Karlsen talked about the [purpose of > > > > ..er, I did not, I asked the (I believe timely) question > > "..where did the "/media tradition" come from anyway? " > > and thenafter it was Stephanie Daugherty who _answered_ > > my question by talking about said purpose. > > > > Thank you for this correction, Arnt. It's been corrected on the Web > version. ...with the "overstruck(Arnt Karlson) Stephanie Daugherty" revenge. ;o) Try "Stephanie Daugherty" the way you should have in the first place. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] devuan git rearrangement for official packages
Hi, I'm planning all official devuan packages in gitlab into the group devuan-packages. The core reason for these changes are: a) it gives a clear name-space for official devuan packages b) it means we can set milestones in the group that can be used to track issues related to the release goals across all packages. c) creating blank projects with an issue and assigning it a milestone is a great way to track what packages need to be cleansed still - and gives an easy way to visualise how we're tracking. d) it would allow for easier automation for the build system. e) it makes it easier for us to differentiate between PPA's (git users projects), derivatives, and non package groups like like devuan-infrastructure and devuan-project etc. f) there are only a few developers and not that many packages so it's the best time to do it. If this goes ahead I'll create an issue for each package as they are moved so that the subscribers to each project are notified. Locally changing the urls will be as simple as: git remote seturl [https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/42 -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] devuan git rearrangement for official packages
Hi, I'm planning to move all official devuan packages in gitlab into the group devuan-packages. The core reason for these changes are: a) It gives a clear name-space for official devuan packages b) We will be able to set milestones in the group that to track issues related to the release goals across all packages and makes it easier to see the project state and progress. c) Create blank projects with an issue and assigning it a milestone is a great way to track what packages need to be cleansed still. d) Gives an easy way to visualise our progress for our releases. d) Allows for easier automation for the build system and other related systems. e) Makes it easier for us to be able to add planned capabilities like: i) Contributor Project Builds (similar concept to ubuntu's PPA's - except built using our build system against official Devuan releases. ii) Derivatives, which is like Contributor Project Builds but with full mirroring (using amprolla's merge functionality) f) there are only a few developers and not that many packages so it's the best time to do it. If this goes ahead I'll create an issue for each package as they are moved so that the subscribers to each project are notified. Locally changing the urls will be as simple as: git remote seturl [https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/42 If you have any concerns about these changes you can also PM me. Thanks, Daniel. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan installer main menu access
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 06:30:42PM -0400, Boruch Baum wrote: > 4.1] Was it a case of 'fat-fingerng'? I don't think so, but it's asking > a lot to attempt to re-create this because with slow bandwidth, each > install attempt takes a long time to get to this stage. Today's > connection was especially slow. This has been the only time and point in > the install process that I've had a problem returning to the main menu, > so it might have been an errant keystroke, but I think I was being careful. You had previously indicated you have other debian/devuan boxes on your network. Is there any reason why you can't install apt-cacher-ng on one of them? You could then experiment with as many install attempts as you want without having to download the same packages all over again. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan installer main menu access
On 03/29/2016 12:33 AM, Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 06:30:42PM -0400, Boruch Baum wrote: >> 4.1] Was it a case of 'fat-fingerng'? I don't think so, but it's >> asking a lot to attempt to re-create this because with slow >> bandwidth, each install attempt takes a long time to get to this >> stage. Today's connection was especially slow. This has been the >> only time and point in the install process that I've had a problem >> returning to the main menu, so it might have been an errant >> keystroke, but I think I was being careful. > > You had previously indicated you have other debian/devuan boxes on > your network. Did not. Don't. > Is there any reason why you can't install apt-cacher-ng on one of > them? See above. > You could then experiment with as many install attempts as you > want without having to download the same packages all over again. What I did write in the past, in response to Adam Borowski's identical suggestion, was that its asking a lot of a potential contributor to require multiple machines, a network, and the additional software, for something that could easily have been solved by either: 1] not being stingy on the initial download, ie. offering a full iso instead of a netboot, or 2] having the netboot installer also refer to a local cache. Also, how many other linux distributions make that kind of request? I'll mention one solution I didn't offer before because its performance might not be as fast - use the extra space on the install medium. -IF- the install medium is a new-ish USB stick, then it likely has a capacity of 8/16/32 GB, and if the target is USB3-equipped, then the transfer speeds should be good. The installer already sets up a small writable FIRMWARE partition on the install media, so this additional suggestion would be to not let the rest of the install media go to waste - use it as a local cache. -- hkp://keys.gnupg.net CA45 09B5 5351 7C11 A9D1 7286 0036 9E45 1595 8BC0 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan installer main menu access
Boruch Baum writes: [...] > 4] The third set of downloads, for the additional system components, > should have been the easy lift. What I did was deselect the options for > a desktop and for a print server, expecting the system to want to > download ~273 files, as it did on prior tests. At that point, I tried > doing what I had no problem doing for the prior two stages - return to > the main install menu, and open up a shell. I tabbed to 'go back', > pressed 'enter', but the installer began downloading packages instead of > presenting the main menu, and indicated that it would download 1173 > packages instead of 273. It's been a long time since I used that but you should have a shell available on the 2nd VT. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan installer main menu access
On 03/29/2016 10:10 AM, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Boruch Baum writes: > > [...] > >> 4] The third set of downloads, for the additional system components, >> should have been the easy lift. What I did was deselect the options for >> a desktop and for a print server, expecting the system to want to >> download ~273 files, as it did on prior tests. At that point, I tried >> doing what I had no problem doing for the prior two stages - return to >> the main install menu, and open up a shell. I tabbed to 'go back', >> pressed 'enter', but the installer began downloading packages instead of >> presenting the main menu, and indicated that it would download 1173 >> packages instead of 273. > > It's been a long time since I used that but you should have a shell > available on the 2nd VT. Excellent. -- hkp://keys.gnupg.net CA45 09B5 5351 7C11 A9D1 7286 0036 9E45 1595 8BC0 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan bet apage and planet names
Hi all Current: stable is “Jessie” (planet nr.10464) testing is “Ascii” (planet nr.3568) unstable is “Ceres” (planet nr.1) Suggestion: current stable is “Jessie” (planet nr.10464) current testing is “Ascii” (planet nr.3568) unstable is “Ceres” (planet nr.1) Regards Noel er Envite binQjFPl_mLOy.bin Description: Clave PGP pública pgpNEbJ6XAydh.pgp Description: Firma digital PGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie - beta release announcement
Veteran Unix Admins [2016-04-29 13:32]: > Debian GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd, on its way to ^^ > become much more than that. This Beta release marks an important > milestone towards the sustainability and the continuation of Devuan as > an universal base distribution. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie - beta release announcement
On Fri, 4/29/16, Harald Arnesen wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie - beta release announcement To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Friday, April 29, 2016, 7:07 AM >> Veteran Unix Admins [2016-04-29 13:32]: >> Debian GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd, on its way to ^^ >> become much more than that. This Beta release marks an important >> milestone towards the sustainability and the continuation of Devuan as >> an universal base distribution. >> -- >> Hilsen Harald Oops . . . This announcement definitely should have been passed by some proofreaders. It is a little ragged and really could have used a cleanup for spelling and ESL issues. There are those of us who are here to do that but this is the first I've seen it. So much for 'team' effort . . . golinux PS. Apologies for being annoyed at this less than perfect unveiling of the Beta. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] devuan announce and discuss mailing lists
HI, Nice job on getting beta out - thanks to all. I know everyone is busy downloading and installing/upgrading, but as an FYI registration for devuan-announce[1] and devuan-discuss[2] has opened. The archive pages[3][4] are also present. You can also use the links on the Community[5] page to get to them. Now, back to installing. Jim [1] https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-announce [2] https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-discuss [3] https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/devuan-announce.en.html [4] https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/devuan-discuss.en.html [5] https://beta.devuan.org/os/community ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie - beta release announcement
Thank you very much for this Beta release. Go Devuan! On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Go Linux wrote: > On Fri, 4/29/16, Harald Arnesen wrote: > > Subject: Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie - beta release announcement > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Friday, April 29, 2016, 7:07 AM > > >> Veteran Unix Admins [2016-04-29 13:32]: > > >> Debian GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd, on its way to > ^^ > >> become much more than that. This Beta release marks an important > >> milestone towards the sustainability and the continuation of Devuan as > >> an universal base distribution. > >> -- > >> Hilsen Harald > > > > Oops . . . This announcement definitely should have been passed by some > proofreaders. It is a little ragged and really could have used a cleanup > for spelling and ESL issues. There are those of us who are here to do that > but this is the first I've seen it. So much for 'team' effort . . . > > golinux > > PS. Apologies for being annoyed at this less than perfect unveiling of > the Beta. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] devuan security repo working? Samba error
It appears that the devuan repo is not pulling in the newer samba 4.2 but rather the older 4.1 programs of samba-libs and samba-common. Is Devuan's security repo functioning now? I have read that it is and that it isn't, so I am unsure and I wanted to let someone know about this. I have a new beta (dvd) install and this is my sources.list: deb http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main contrib non-free deb http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb http://us.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-security main contrib non-free #deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free When I try to pull security updates from the devuan repo, It wants to remove samba. I get this: root@server:/home/user# apt-get dist-upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Calculating upgrade... The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: libhdb9-heimdal libkdc2-heimdal python-dnspython samba-dsdb-modules tdb-tools Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. Done The following packages will be REMOVED: samba samba-common-bin The following packages will be upgraded: libldb1 libsmbclient python-ldb python-samba samba-dsdb-modules samba-libs 6 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 6,702 kB of archives. After this operation, 11.9 MB disk space will be freed. Do you want to continue? [Y/n] In digging a little further, I try to install a samba related program "libnss-winbind" with the devuan security repo, and I get this information along with a failure to continue: Depends: samba-common (=2:4.2.10+dfsg-0+deb8u2) but 2:4.1.17+dfsg-2+deb8u2 is to be installed Depends: winbind but it is not going to be installed Depends: samba-libs (=2:4.2.10+dfsg-0+deb8u2) but 2:4.1.17+dfsg-2+deb8u2 is to be installed When I try to update from the debian security repo, it does not want to remove samba, and it updates samba correctly with no errors: root@server:/home/user# apt-get dist-upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Calculating upgrade... The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: libgssapi3-heimdal libheimntlm0-heimdal libkdc2-heimdal Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. Done The following packages will be upgraded: libldb1 libsmbclient python-ldb python-samba samba samba-common samba-common-bin samba-dsdb-modules samba-libs 9 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 8,578 kB of archives. After this operation, 1,213 kB of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue? [Y/n] For some reason, the devuan security "merged" repo is not picking up the newer debian samba programs. It did pick up some other security updates though. It has been like this for three days. I thought the issue would correct itself, but it hasn't, yet. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan Minimal Live Images -- new version
Dear Devuaners, thanks to your comments and suggestions, I was able to strip down substantially the Unofficial Devuan Minimal Live images. We now can boot the amd64 version in 96 MB of RAM and the i386 version in 80 MB. If we consider that this is still a bunch of standard Devuan packages, with standard kernel and libc and everything, I believe it is a nice result. The new images can be downloaded here: http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu and are those marked as "DEVELOPMENT BRANCH". I have also considered the wishes expressed by some of you, and I have added a few more packages. The most notable inclusion is the support for Braille terminals (brltty) and for speech synthesis (espeak/espeakup + alsa), which might make this minimal live Devuan as a viable option for blind users. Thanks a lot to Gregory Nowak for the suggestions about accessibility. There are also fbi, fbterm, mc, minicom, and some more little utilities, but most of them are untested, so please try to break them and report back :) Despite the new additions, which indeed required a lot of space, the usage of xz for the squashfs allowed to maintain the footprint around 250 MB. I am convinced that we can still trim more fat, though. Please feel free to report comments, suggestions, and things to be added to the wishlist through the gitlab page of the project: https://git.devuan.org/KatolaZ/devuan-live-minimal You will also find there the scripts I have used to create the images, plus some documentation, which is quite minimal at the moment. HH KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
Boruch, the iso boots from isolinux, (isolinux/live.cfg), grub is not involved.
My notes (so far):
What is ${netconfig_opt} in live.cfg?
What is udevuan.cfg?
"vga=792" may fail in some case, probably best not set as default
Menu entry "(nofb)": Runlevel 3 has no special meaning for this iso
(Refracta uses it for console-only boot)
"username=devuan" is not on cmdline, causing error messages and sudo failure
Menu entry "nomodest" is removed (is useful for problem graphics cards)
There are 2x initrd in /live
inird('s) are not xz-compressed (in /live and the squashfs)
There is a symlink for /boot/initrd.img (which does not exist)
/usr/share/initramfs-tools/init is refracta-snapshot patched version
(as discussed earlier)
(IMO) Terminus font is ugly (why not vga?)
None of that is difficult to sort. Thanks for adding keymaps and great
work trimming the initrd.
D
On 18 May 2016 at 04:53, Boruch Baum wrote:
> @KatolaZ (and everyone else): I just took the 2016-05-17 iteration of
> devuan-minimal for a short spin, and here are my notes. In summary, it
> seems to be a nicely prepared iso, with features that I've found
> overlooked in much larger distros that make attempts to be minimal.
> Nice work!
>
> devuan-minimal.org-emacs -*- mode: org; mode:visual-line; -*-
> #+TITLE: devuan-minimal.org-emacs
> * devuan-minimal.org-emacs
> ** 2016-05-17
> *** qemu on E15
> + default boot option failed
> + frame buffer related. Message is:
> #+BEGIN_SRC
> fb: switching to bochsdrmfb from simple
> #+END_SRC
> + Question: so how is it so many others claim success?
> + when invoking qemu with an additional option '-vga vmware', the
> frame buffer boot option succeeds, and the frame buffer feature
> works, as described below.
> + successful boot with nofb option
> *** usb on E14
> + default boots to login
> + boot process does not auto-recognize screen
> + prompts for resolution selection, with a timeout.
> + selected option 'y'
> + possible solution: in file /etc/default/grub, comment out
> parameter 'GRUB_GFX_MODE'. That should make grub default to
> 'auto'. However, I'm not really certain if that's necessary,
> because I don't see a /boot/grub/grub.cfg, so it seems that the
> iso is booting using isolinux. (true?/false?)
> + libcap2-bin not installed
> + required to query or set capabilities.
> + fbterm requires the following to be performed ONCE.
> #+BEGIN_SRC
> sudo setcap 'cap_sys_tty_config+ep' /usr/bin/fbterm
> sudo chmod u+s /usr/bin/fbterm
> #+END_SRC
> + for a livecd environment, neither command is easily possible,
> because the root filesystem is not writable. (not tested)
> + solution #1: perform the commands before burning the iso
> + solution #2: mount an aufs partition over the root partition
> and apply the changes on the overlay. (not tested)
> + frame buffer works!
> + fbi renders images!
> #+BEGIN_SRC
> fbi /usr/share/doc/syslinux-common/examples/syslinux_splash.jpg
> #+END_SRC
> + AND it's a nice picture ...
> + fbgs render pdfs!
> + tip: Review the options on the man page before use. By default,
> the program pre-renders the entire document, which can take a
> while, and the default resolution isn't low so, for example, if
> you have a large document and know you are interested in only
> pages 250-260:
> #+BEGIN_SRC
> fbgs -fp 250 -lp 260 -r 300 your-file.pdf
> #+END_SRC
> + thanks for the following features, which I have found that other
> 'minimal' distros skimp on:
> + man pages
> + locate, with updatedb pre-run
> + grub
> + why is there no /boot/grub/grub.cfg?
> + missing
> + everyone will have something to chime in here about, I would
> prefer to be able to list things to remove.
> + ncdu - ncurses answer to 'baobab', with more features and without
> gnome-bloat.
> + htop - not *really* necessary, since 'top' is installed.
>
> --
> hkp://keys.gnupg.net
> CA45 09B5 5351 7C11 A9D1 7286 0036 9E45 1595 8BC0
> ___
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Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:44:23AM +0100, David Hare wrote:
> Boruch, the iso boots from isolinux, (isolinux/live.cfg), grub is not
> involved.
>
> My notes (so far):
>
> What is ${netconfig_opt} in live.cfg?
>
It's coming from refracta, I guess. It should probably be removed in
the future.
> What is udevuan.cfg?
The custom configuration of the isolinux menu. It already replaces
live.cfg but I have to remove it from the image.
>
> "vga=792" may fail in some case, probably best not set as default
>
I am considering other options, but having isolinux we don't have that
much flexibility. vga=788 might be alright in general, but we will
provide several configured boot options. Links2 is not fun at all at
640x480...
> Menu entry "(nofb)": Runlevel 3 has no special meaning for this iso
> (Refracta uses it for console-only boot)
>
That's just a test. I think I will include some other boot options and
rearrange the existing ones, providing even smaller initrd images
together with the existing ones, e.g. without support for some scsi
drives which wastes a lot of initrd space and is useless in most of
the cases.
Also, I am considering the possibility of providing a customised
runlevel optimised for accessibility.
> "username=devuan" is not on cmdline, causing error messages and sudo failure
>
There is no sudo configured, and probably there will never be. There
is a root account, with credentials root/toor.
> Menu entry "nomodest" is removed (is useful for problem graphics cards)
>
See above concerning boot options.
> There are 2x initrd in /live
>
There will be even more in the future :)
> inird('s) are not xz-compressed (in /live and the squashfs)
>
I know. Will be xz-ed in the next snapshot. In principle, we could
probably remove it from the squashfs, since it is pretty useless there
anyway and we might save some good space.
> There is a symlink for /boot/initrd.img (which does not exist)
>
I know. It will be removed when we rearrange the boot options.
> /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init is refracta-snapshot patched version
> (as discussed earlier)
Yes, and it is OK for the moment being, since I am using
refractasnapshot-9.2.2.
>
> (IMO) Terminus font is ugly (why not vga?)
>
I have not mangled with console fonts at all.
Thanks for the comments!
HND
KatolaZ
--
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
[ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 11:53:57PM -0400, Boruch Baum wrote: > @KatolaZ (and everyone else): I just took the 2016-05-17 iteration of > devuan-minimal for a short spin, and here are my notes. In summary, it > seems to be a nicely prepared iso, with features that I've found > overlooked in much larger distros that make attempts to be minimal. > Nice work! Hi, thanks for the comments. Please find some notes below. > > devuan-minimal.org-emacs -*- mode: org; mode:visual-line; -*- > #+TITLE: devuan-minimal.org-emacs > * devuan-minimal.org-emacs > ** 2016-05-17 > *** qemu on E15 > + default boot option failed > + frame buffer related. Message is: > #+BEGIN_SRC > fb: switching to bochsdrmfb from simple > #+END_SRC > + Question: so how is it so many others claim success? > + when invoking qemu with an additional option '-vga vmware', the > frame buffer boot option succeeds, and the frame buffer feature > works, as described below. > + successful boot with nofb option I don't get what you mean by "qemu on E15" and "usb on E14". The problem you got might be simply due to the fact that the kernel tries to use 1024x768 in fb, which might not be available in your case. We probably need to revert back to smaller resolutions (e.g. 800x600x16) for the standard boot line, and provide a "hires" option with full 1024x768 support and a "lowres" option with "640x480x8". > *** usb on E14 > + default boots to login > + boot process does not auto-recognize screen > + prompts for resolution selection, with a timeout. > + selected option 'y' > + possible solution: in file /etc/default/grub, comment out > parameter 'GRUB_GFX_MODE'. That should make grub default to > 'auto'. However, I'm not really certain if that's necessary, > because I don't see a /boot/grub/grub.cfg, so it seems that the > iso is booting using isolinux. (true?/false?) The image is booting through isolinux. There is no grub, and probably there will not be one, since isolinux is much more than enough for the task of booting a live image. > + libcap2-bin not installed > + required to query or set capabilities. > + fbterm requires the following to be performed ONCE. > #+BEGIN_SRC > sudo setcap 'cap_sys_tty_config+ep' /usr/bin/fbterm > sudo chmod u+s /usr/bin/fbterm > #+END_SRC > + for a livecd environment, neither command is easily possible, > because the root filesystem is not writable. (not tested) > + solution #1: perform the commands before burning the iso > + solution #2: mount an aufs partition over the root partition > and apply the changes on the overlay. (not tested) Noted! > + frame buffer works! [cut] Good to hear that! > + thanks for the following features, which I have found that other > 'minimal' distros skimp on: > + man pages > + locate, with updatedb pre-run > + grub > + why is there no /boot/grub/grub.cfg? We are not using grub, and I will probably remove all the grub stuff if possible, since it is just a waste of space. Maybe we will have problems with UEFI boot though, but we can't save the world in two hours :D > + missing > + everyone will have something to chime in here about, I would > prefer to be able to list things to remove. > + ncdu - ncurses answer to 'baobab', with more features and without > gnome-bloat. > + htop - not *really* necessary, since 'top' is installed. > Noted. They are not the most necessary tools, but I plan to have a little more space in the next snapshot, due to some cleansing. You might also consider reporting those issues in the gitlab page, so that we can have Thanks! HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
On 05/18/2016 05:04 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:44:23AM +0100, David Hare wrote:
>> What is ${netconfig_opt} in live.cfg?
>>
>
> It's coming from refracta, I guess. It should probably be removed in
> the future.
Yes, ${netconfig_opt} is from refractasnapshot and can be turned on/off in
the config file. When enabled, it adds ip=frommedia to the boot command,
and will preserve network configs for ifup/ifdown, wicd and gnome
NetworkManager: /etc/network/interfaces, /var/lib/wicd/configurations, and
/etc/NetworkManager/system-connections.
I'm looking at the code now - those network config files are not excluded
from the filesystem copy, and they get removed from $work_dir/myfs/ unless
you enable the option.
It's useful for making a snapshot of a system you want to use with your
own network, and it's dangerous if you enable it and then distribute the
iso, thus giving away your wireless passwords.
>> "username=devuan" is not on cmdline, causing error messages and sudo failure
>>
>
> There is no sudo configured, and probably there will never be. There
> is a root account, with credentials root/toor.
>
The username option does not appear to be needed for console-only
sessions. Refracta Snapshot 9.3.x adds this option automatically if the
username is anything other than "user", and it uses the name for whoever
has uid:gid of 1000:1000. There's a setting in the config file to override
this and use whatever username you put there. I don't think I've tested
what happens if you put a second user's name there (e.g. whoever is
1001:1001.)
>> Menu entry "nomodest" is removed (is useful for problem graphics cards)
>>
I think it's also removed in the boot menu of my unofficial live beta, but
it's still there in refractasnapshot. No plans to get rid of that.
-fsr
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Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
sudo is set up automatically by /lib/live/config/0040-sudo .. unless
"nocomponents=sudo" is on the cmdline. By default for "user" unless
"username=xyz" is specified.
On 18 May 2016 at 14:52, fsmithred wrote:
> On 05/18/2016 05:04 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
>> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:44:23AM +0100, David Hare wrote:
>>> What is ${netconfig_opt} in live.cfg?
>>>
>>
>> It's coming from refracta, I guess. It should probably be removed in
>> the future.
>
> Yes, ${netconfig_opt} is from refractasnapshot and can be turned on/off in
> the config file. When enabled, it adds ip=frommedia to the boot command,
> and will preserve network configs for ifup/ifdown, wicd and gnome
> NetworkManager: /etc/network/interfaces, /var/lib/wicd/configurations, and
> /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections.
>
> I'm looking at the code now - those network config files are not excluded
> from the filesystem copy, and they get removed from $work_dir/myfs/ unless
> you enable the option.
>
> It's useful for making a snapshot of a system you want to use with your
> own network, and it's dangerous if you enable it and then distribute the
> iso, thus giving away your wireless passwords.
>
>
>>> "username=devuan" is not on cmdline, causing error messages and sudo failure
>>>
>>
>> There is no sudo configured, and probably there will never be. There
>> is a root account, with credentials root/toor.
>>
>
> The username option does not appear to be needed for console-only
> sessions. Refracta Snapshot 9.3.x adds this option automatically if the
> username is anything other than "user", and it uses the name for whoever
> has uid:gid of 1000:1000. There's a setting in the config file to override
> this and use whatever username you put there. I don't think I've tested
> what happens if you put a second user's name there (e.g. whoever is
> 1001:1001.)
>
>
>
>>> Menu entry "nomodest" is removed (is useful for problem graphics cards)
>>>
>
> I think it's also removed in the boot menu of my unofficial live beta, but
> it's still there in refractasnapshot. No plans to get rid of that.
>
>
> -fsr
>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:52:57AM -0400, fsmithred wrote: > I think it's also removed in the boot menu of my unofficial live beta, but > it's still there in refractasnapshot. No plans to get rid of that. Ok, I'm confused. Is the mini live image that KatolaZ produced a small version of your unofficial live beta, or are these separate projects. If they are separate, then can you please follow in KatolaZ's footsteps, and include sound support, espeak/espeak-data, espeakup, and brltty if you haven't already done so? If your image provides a graphical desktop like xfce, then does it also include orca? If it already includes orca, then it probably has espeak/espeak-data as well. Thanks. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 05:04:53PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:52:57AM -0400, fsmithred wrote: > > I think it's also removed in the boot menu of my unofficial live beta, but > > it's still there in refractasnapshot. No plans to get rid of that. > > Ok, I'm confused. Is the mini live image that KatolaZ produced > a small version of your unofficial live beta, or are these separate projects. > If > they are separate, then can you please follow in KatolaZ's footsteps, > and include sound support, espeak/espeak-data, espeakup, and brltty if > you haven't already done so? If your image provides a graphical > desktop like xfce, then does it also include orca? If it already > includes orca, then it probably has espeak/espeak-data as well. Thanks. > Hi Greg, the two project (i.e., the unofficial live ISOs by the refracta team and the unofficial minimal live ISOs built by me) are separated, at least at the moment, and have indeed different aims. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
Did "real" installations, both the original and the beta (bios machine). Went fast and flawlessly in both cases with refractainstaller. However, the "beta" failed to boot (to that installation) with a kernel panic.. update-grub had failed to configure /boot/initrd_devuan.img I made an entry in /etc/grub.d/40_custom (specifying initrd_devuan.img) then could boot it. My normal installation's grub and the minimal-beta's grub (installed to partition so I can chainload it) behaved the same. How you would sort a minimal intrd automatically on update-initramfs (other than stripping out the junk manually), or what would happen after a kernel update, I do not know. D On 19 May 2016 at 01:32, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 05:04:53PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: >> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:52:57AM -0400, fsmithred wrote: >> > I think it's also removed in the boot menu of my unofficial live beta, but >> > it's still there in refractasnapshot. No plans to get rid of that. >> >> Ok, I'm confused. Is the mini live image that KatolaZ produced >> a small version of your unofficial live beta, or are these separate >> projects. If >> they are separate, then can you please follow in KatolaZ's footsteps, >> and include sound support, espeak/espeak-data, espeakup, and brltty if >> you haven't already done so? If your image provides a graphical >> desktop like xfce, then does it also include orca? If it already >> includes orca, then it probably has espeak/espeak-data as well. Thanks. >> > > Hi Greg, > > the two project (i.e., the unofficial live ISOs by the refracta team > and the unofficial minimal live ISOs built by me) are separated, at > least at the moment, and have indeed different aims. > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan-minimal brief review notes
On 05/18/2016 08:32 PM, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 05:04:53PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: >> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:52:57AM -0400, fsmithred wrote: >>> I think it's also removed in the boot menu of my unofficial live beta, but >>> it's still there in refractasnapshot. No plans to get rid of that. >> >> Ok, I'm confused. Is the mini live image that KatolaZ produced >> a small version of your unofficial live beta, or are these separate >> projects. If >> they are separate, then can you please follow in KatolaZ's footsteps, >> and include sound support, espeak/espeak-data, espeakup, and brltty if >> you haven't already done so? If your image provides a graphical >> desktop like xfce, then does it also include orca? If it already >> includes orca, then it probably has espeak/espeak-data as well. Thanks. >> > > Hi Greg, > > the two project (i.e., the unofficial live ISOs by the refracta team > and the unofficial minimal live ISOs built by me) are separated, at > least at the moment, and have indeed different aims. > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > The unofficial live iso that I made contains whatever software is in the official beta release plus a few things that refractasnapshot needs to work (squashfs-tools, xorriso, live-boot*, live-config* and syslinux). I can't take credit for the package selection in that one. If the packages you requested are not in it, it's up to the Devuan team to add them. Those images can be found here - https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/unofficial_devuan_live/ If you'd like to be further confused, there are also some Refracta beta releases based on devuan, and the full version is as bloated with software as I could possibly make it and still fit on a CD. There's also a no-X version, but I wouldn't call it "minimal". The selection of software in the Refracta betas are my responsibility, and the package list is based on choices that the team made on earlier (wheezy and squeeze) releases. I will look at adding orca and the other packages you mentioned to Refracta. -fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Minimal Live Images -- Update
Thanks very mutch.It is so exiting,becouse fo a spesial filling for freedom and beauty. 23.05.2016, 10:09, "KatolaZ" : > Dear Devuaners, > > a new version of the Unofficial Devuan Minimal Live Images can be > downloaded at: > > http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu > > The images are available for amd64 and i386 (more architectures might > come out soon) and, despite including much more stuff, still fit into > 256MB of space, and can boot in as little as 58MB (i386) or 74MB > (amd64). Instructions to test them on qemu with framebuffer and sound > support are available on the webpage. > > I have codenamed these minimal live images "otello", after Otello > Urso, a blind friend of Freaknet who left us several years ago. Hence > the current version has codename "otello_devel3". Unfortunately, there > is no minor planet named "otello", even if there is a minor planet > called "Botello", but I am not too much convinced about it :) > > Here is the list of major changes: > > - initrd is much thinner, trimmed from most fat, xz-ed, and fits in > about 6.5MB (it was 29MB in the previous version). > > - the squashfs is xz-ed by default, but there are options to use > gzip/bzip2 as well (e.g. for slow machines) > > - boot options have been reorganised. Now the default is an > accessible boot with no framebuffer. The second option is > fb-enabled, but asks the user to choose among available > modes (vga=auto). Seems like a fair deal to me. > > - many packages added, from standard admin utilities to personal > production software, from games to stuff for multimedia (image, > sound, video playback/record/manipulation). > > The full list of packages is available on the webpage. > > I have incorporated most of the comments I have received here and > off-list. I am still working on a few points, which should be fixed by > the next release, including: > > - full support for an accessible boot, by including appropriate > beeps during the boot process, and at login. There are some at the > moment, but for some reason I can't make my qemu installation > produce any sound before linux starts... > > - full support for installation on disk. > > - full support for data persistence (i.e., mount /home from > somewhere). > > You will also find the scripts I have used to produce the images in > the devel branch of the gitlab page of the project: > > https://git.devuan.org/KatolaZ/devuan-live-minimal/tree/devel > > BE CAREFUL: THE README IS NOT UPDATED, AND DOES NOT REFLECT EXACTLY > THE CURRENT STATE OF THE DEVEL BRANCH. IN PARTICULAR, STAGES 3-5 ARE > NOW FULLY AUTOMATIC. I WILL UPDATE IT ASAP AND LET YOU KNOW. > > As usual, comments, suggestions, and criticism are very welcome. > > HH > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
