Import requirements

[Allan, James]

Can anyone on this board help me out with the requirements for import of ITE
into Saudi Arabia?
Do they have specific national requirements? Are they accepting of a DOC as
is the EC? Perhaps UL marks are enough?  What about EMC?   What I am looking
for is information that will allow me to clear customs hopefully with no
additional testing other than the European CE mark requires.

Thanks   Jim

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Re: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[Lfresearch]

In a message dated 3/5/99 3:10:49 PM Central Standard Time,
b...@namg.us.anritsu.com writes:

<< Chaz made a very good point. The reality unfortunately is that some PCs on 
 the market don't meet the standards although they have FCC sticks or CE 
 markings. Do we need some more law enforcement?
 
 Barry Ma >>

It would be interesting if Accredited labs, as part of their charter, would
have to forward noncompliant data they recorded on a device if it had been
purchased from the market place...

Help the FCC find offenders much easier.

Derek.

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Invitation from ECMA/EACEM - Safety of Electronic Equipment Stand

[Rich Nute]

As an inactive member of ECMA TC 12, and a TC 12 contributor for the
first year of this work, I am fowarding a message from Bob Griffin,
Compaq, regarding a new product safety standard for electronic
equipment.

Unfortunately, I am unable to include the files Bob describes.
(Apparently, the listserver can't handle the large files.)  You can
obtain the files on request of Bob.


Best regards,
Rich






As an interested party in the development and/or use of product safety
standards for Information Technology and Consumer Electronics in the
United States, ECMA and EACAM would like to invite you or your designate
to participate in a presentation and discussion regarding the their
draft standard - "Safety of Electronic Equipment".

Where: Compaq Computer Corporation, Houston Texas
   Compaq Conference Center - Singapore Room

When:  Wednesday, 17 March 1999
Time:  10:00 am until 4pm

The attached files include the Invitation, agenda, hotel information,
maps and driving instructions from the Airport and hotel areas.  Both
PDF and Word 7.0 versions are provided.  If anyone has trouble with the
attached files, please provide me with a fax number and I'll have it
faxed immediately.

<>  <> 

A pdf version of the standard will be forwarded under separate cover but
can be obtained immediately from the ECMA web site at

<> or  
  http://www.ecma.ch/news/safety.htm
   

For more information on 
ECMA www.ecma.ch   
EACEMwww.eacem.be    

ECMA and EACEM encourage you to send this invitation to all interested
parties.  There will be similar event held in Geneva during April 99 for
European interests.  If you have any questions, please feel free to
contact me.  We look forward to seeing everyone in Houston.


On behalf of ECMA and EACEM

Bob Griffin,  281-514-4896
Compaq Computer Corp.
Manager, Product Regulations
Email: robert.grif...@compaq.com  




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RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[bma]

Chaz made a very good point. The reality unfortunately is that some PCs on 
the market don't meet the standards although they have FCC sticks or CE 
markings. Do we need some more law enforcement?

Barry Ma

-
Original Text
From: "Grasso, Charles (Chaz)" , on 3/5/99 
11:27 AM:
I am confused. What's the problem?
If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you
should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.

-Original Message-
From: Nathan Belsher [mailto:nbels...@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:45 AM
To: eric.lif...@natinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR


Eric,

I understand your dilemma.   Having been on both sides of the fence of this
issue I must say it can be a sticky issue. At the very least it can be very
time consuming testing various machines to get a quiet one.  Here is my
current
experience and my recommendation from past experience.

I have just recently finished another round of testing for FCC, CISPR,
BELLCORE, and EN50082-1 on a system that has gone through this
testing several times as I do my work on ASDL modems.  I have had better
than
4 dbuv margin on my DELL OPTIPLEX GXPRO 200 MHz. Pentium PRO. Only the 
usual
problem of having to reseat the cover has ever been a problem for us.

I read Randy Flinders comments and he has some merit.  Randy has had a lot
of
pc testing himself on the West coast.  

Here is my recommendation for power users such as yourself.  Call up the 
EMC
department at your friendly PC manufacturer.  Tell them you buy several
systems a year for EMC testing. Ask for their current recommendation of a
system to meet your requirements.  Ask them if they will do a courtesy 
audit
of the system you buy before you get it and  verify it meets the required
standards particularly 
radiated emissions.  You can place the order through regular sales channels
and
have it shipped to the EMC engineering department where they test it as an
audit test and then ship it on to you with the complimentary data package.
This may 
add about one month to your procurement cycle but it gets positive results.
This is the only way I know to be sure you get an EMC compliant system. 

Nathan Belsher
NORTEL NETWORKS
Senior EMC Engineer
Phone:  (919)-991-2769   ESN:351-2769
FAX: (919)-991-8724
E-Mail:  nbels...@nortelnetworks.com

-Original Message-
From:   eric.lif...@natinst.com [SMTP:eric.lif...@natinst.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:11 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

Colleagues,

My (formerly) preferred vendor of Intel based personal computer
systems,
used for CISPR-11/22 and immunity testing of our boards and
peripherals,
are lately having emissions up to the Class A limit fresh out of the
box -
without any peripherals attached.  So I must query the List Members
for
experience-based suggestions for make and model of a passing system
that I
can buy here in the USA.

I need Pentium II equivalent PCI/ISA systems that pass Class A with
at
least 4 dB of margin and endure EN 50082-1:1992 testing on a weekly
basis
for most of a year.  Systems that can pass EN 50082-1:1998 (or EN
61326-1:1998) would be nice but I suspect few, if any, are
available.  We
buy about 4 new machines each year as they wear out.

Please don't suggest that I complain to the PC vendor since I really
don't
have time to spend on the matter.  I've already traded our newest PC
to
another department that doesn't care about EMC in exchange for an
older
compliant PC.  I just need a long-term solution.

Most importantly, please send your recommendations direct to me to
minimize
clutter on the list.  Unless you specify not to, I'll post a summary
of all
comments to the list since I believe others are equally interested
in the
results.

Regards and Thanks In Advance,
Eric Lifsey
Compliance Engineer/Manager
National Instruments



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Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[rbusche]

Just for the record, I have been very pleased with the HP Kayak machine. The
cover was very easy to remove by just flipping two levers, and even after
numerous removals it remained reliable.

The gasketing was very good both around the cover and on the I/O panel. If
degradation of the gasket were to occur, it is very easy to restore the
fingers by simply pulling up on them a bit.

Just my $.02

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Re[2]: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[ron_pickard]

 Derek,
 
 I'm sure that Mr. Grasso meant that in jest. Anyway, IMHO, if any EMC engineer 
 put their faith in the plug-n-play scenario, he or she would be candidates for 
 management. :-)
 
 Best regards,
 Ron Pickard
 ron_pick...@hypercom.com


__ Reply Separator _
Subject: Re: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR 
Author:   at INTERNET
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:3/5/99 12:16 PM


In a message dated 3/5/99 11:01:58 AM Central Standard Time, 
gra...@louisville.stortek.com writes:
 
<< I am confused. What's the problem?
 If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
 Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you 
 should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.
  >>
 
I can't imagine ANY EMC engineer having faith in a plug and play approach!
 
Derek.
 
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j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or 
roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
 
 


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RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[bma]

Chaz made a good point. The reality is that some PCs on the market don't 
meet the standards although they have FCC sticks or CE markings.
-
Original Text
From: "Grasso, Charles (Chaz)" , on 3/5/99 
11:27 AM:
To: 
Cc: 

I am confused. What's the problem?
If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you
should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.

-Original Message-
From: Nathan Belsher [mailto:nbels...@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:45 AM
To: eric.lif...@natinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR


Eric,

I understand your dilemma.   Having been on both sides of the fence of this
issue I must say it can be a sticky issue. At the very least it can be very
time consuming testing various machines to get a quiet one.  Here is my
current
experience and my recommendation from past experience.

I have just recently finished another round of testing for FCC, CISPR,
BELLCORE, and EN50082-1 on a system that has gone through this
testing several times as I do my work on ASDL modems.  I have had better
than
4 dbuv margin on my DELL OPTIPLEX GXPRO 200 MHz. Pentium PRO. Only the 
usual
problem of having to reseat the cover has ever been a problem for us.

I read Randy Flinders comments and he has some merit.  Randy has had a lot
of
pc testing himself on the West coast.  

Here is my recommendation for power users such as yourself.  Call up the 
EMC
department at your friendly PC manufacturer.  Tell them you buy several
systems a year for EMC testing. Ask for their current recommendation of a
system to meet your requirements.  Ask them if they will do a courtesy 
audit
of the system you buy before you get it and  verify it meets the required
standards particularly 
radiated emissions.  You can place the order through regular sales channels
and
have it shipped to the EMC engineering department where they test it as an
audit test and then ship it on to you with the complimentary data package.
This may 
add about one month to your procurement cycle but it gets positive results.
This is the only way I know to be sure you get an EMC compliant system. 

Nathan Belsher
NORTEL NETWORKS
Senior EMC Engineer
Phone:  (919)-991-2769   ESN:351-2769
FAX: (919)-991-8724
E-Mail:  nbels...@nortelnetworks.com

-Original Message-
From:   eric.lif...@natinst.com [SMTP:eric.lif...@natinst.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:11 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

Colleagues,

My (formerly) preferred vendor of Intel based personal computer
systems,
used for CISPR-11/22 and immunity testing of our boards and
peripherals,
are lately having emissions up to the Class A limit fresh out of the
box -
without any peripherals attached.  So I must query the List Members
for
experience-based suggestions for make and model of a passing system
that I
can buy here in the USA.

I need Pentium II equivalent PCI/ISA systems that pass Class A with
at
least 4 dB of margin and endure EN 50082-1:1992 testing on a weekly
basis
for most of a year.  Systems that can pass EN 50082-1:1998 (or EN
61326-1:1998) would be nice but I suspect few, if any, are
available.  We
buy about 4 new machines each year as they wear out.

Please don't suggest that I complain to the PC vendor since I really
don't
have time to spend on the matter.  I've already traded our newest PC
to
another department that doesn't care about EMC in exchange for an
older
compliant PC.  I just need a long-term solution.

Most importantly, please send your recommendations direct to me to
minimize
clutter on the list.  Unless you specify not to, I'll post a summary
of all
comments to the list since I believe others are equally interested
in the
results.

Regards and Thanks In Advance,
Eric Lifsey
Compliance Engineer/Manager
National Instruments



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Re: Field probes

[ed . price]

John:

That cutting edge technology will break your heart every time. I use IFI field 
sensors, which also use a fiberoptic link back to an indicator or controller. 
However, I don't think this technology has changed in over 20 years!

The fiber is a hefty 1/10" diameter, and takes lots of abuse. The connectors 
are super crude; the fiber is just pushed into a male RCA Phono plug deep 
enough for the fiber to stick out of the center pin. Strain relief is provided 
by squashing the plug's ground lug around the fiber's jacket.

If this kind of cable sounds like you can use it with the Holladay equipment, 
then see IFI (Instrumnets For Industry), http://www.ifi.com.

Regards,

Ed



  From: John Harrington 
  Subject: Field probes
  Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:07:45 - 
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Cc: FS_4C_1/mren...@ktl.com


> Dear All
> 
> We have a Holaday isotropic, broad band field sensing system 
> comprising of a HI-4400 monitor and a HI-4421 probe.  These two 
> units are connected together by an optical fibre and this is where 
> our problem lies.
> 
> The system is old and the fibre optic cable has broken.  We have 
> been informed by our suppliers that Holaday no longer make the 
> cable and that we will have to replace the entire system (the latest 
> model uses a different type of fibre optic with different connectors).
> 
> This is no solution.
> 
> Does any kind hearted soul have a spare cable they'd be willing to 
> sell, or even have any information about possible suppliers.
> 
> Any help woul be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> John Harrington
> EMC Group Manager, KTL Hull
> Telephone : +44 (0) 1482 801801
> Fax : +44 (0) 1482 801806
> email : jharring...@ktl.com
> 
> 
> -
> This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
> quotes).  For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com,
> j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
> roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
> 
> 

---End of Original Message-

--
Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA.  USA
619-505-2780
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: 03/05/1999
Time: 11:01:49
--



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RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[KevinH]

Chaz,

You are such a funny guy; everyone is a comedian.
But seriously folks...

We have been fighting this battle for a long time and I do not believe it
was any better before the DoC process adopted by the FCC than it is now.
The major PC manufacturers are doing the same thing today as they did then.
The only people that are taking advantage of the new system are those "slap
together PC outfit's" that none of us buy form anyway.

What I am looking to do is purchasing an "industrial PC" which can be taken
apart more than once without severe degradation in RF performance.  

If anyone knows of a manufacturer with this type of PC, please let us all
know.  If there is no such animal well, here is an opportunity for someone
to make a great deal of money supplying all of us test engineers with good
PC's (and peripherals for that matter).


Thank you,

Kevin J. Hight  --  Regulatory Compliance Engineer
Exabyte Corporation
1777 Exposition Drive, Building #7
Boulder, Colorado 80301
Phone: 303-417-5534;  Fax: 303-417-5710
Pager: 303-855-7029;  Email: kev...@exabyte.com


-Original Message-
From: Grasso, Charles (Chaz) [mailto:gra...@louisville.stortek.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:01 AM
To: 'Nathan Belsher'; eric.lif...@natinst.com;
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR


I am confused. What's the problem?
If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you
should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.

-Original Message-
From: Nathan Belsher [mailto:nbels...@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:45 AM
To: eric.lif...@natinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR


Eric,

I understand your dilemma.   Having been on both sides of the fence of this
issue I must say it can be a sticky issue. At the very least it can be very
time consuming testing various machines to get a quiet one.  Here is my
current
experience and my recommendation from past experience.

I have just recently finished another round of testing for FCC, CISPR,
BELLCORE, and EN50082-1 on a system that has gone through this
testing several times as I do my work on ASDL modems.  I have had better
than
4 dbuv margin on my DELL OPTIPLEX GXPRO 200 MHz. Pentium PRO. Only the usual
problem of having to reseat the cover has ever been a problem for us.

I read Randy Flinders comments and he has some merit.  Randy has had a lot
of
pc testing himself on the West coast.  

Here is my recommendation for power users such as yourself.  Call up the EMC
department at your friendly PC manufacturer.  Tell them you buy several
systems a year for EMC testing. Ask for their current recommendation of a
system to meet your requirements.  Ask them if they will do a courtesy audit
of the system you buy before you get it and  verify it meets the required
standards particularly 
radiated emissions.  You can place the order through regular sales channels
and
have it shipped to the EMC engineering department where they test it as an
audit test and then ship it on to you with the complimentary data package.
This may 
add about one month to your procurement cycle but it gets positive results.
This is the only way I know to be sure you get an EMC compliant system. 

Nathan Belsher
NORTEL NETWORKS
Senior EMC Engineer
Phone:  (919)-991-2769   ESN:351-2769
FAX: (919)-991-8724
E-Mail:  nbels...@nortelnetworks.com

-Original Message-
From:   eric.lif...@natinst.com [SMTP:eric.lif...@natinst.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:11 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

Colleagues,

My (formerly) preferred vendor of Intel based personal computer
systems,
used for CISPR-11/22 and immunity testing of our boards and
peripherals,
are lately having emissions up to the Class A limit fresh out of the
box -
without any peripherals attached.  So I must query the List Members
for
experience-based suggestions for make and model of a passing system
that I
can buy here in the USA.

I need Pentium II equivalent PCI/ISA systems that pass Class A with
at
least 4 dB of margin and endure EN 50082-1:1992 testing on a weekly
basis
for most of a year.  Systems that can pass EN 50082-1:1998 (or EN
61326-1:1998) would be nice but I suspect few, if any, are
available.  We
buy about 4 new machines each year as they wear out.

Please don't suggest that I complain to the PC vendor since I really
don't
have time to spend on the matter.  I've already traded our newest PC
to
another department that doesn't care about EMC in exchange for an
older
compliant PC.  I just need a long-term solution.

Most importantly, please send your recommendations direct to me to
minimize
clutter on the list

RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[bma]

Yes, I have the same experience and good impression of EMC quality with 
Gateway 2000 PC.
To my knowledge, an EMC lab, RTL (http://www.rheintech.com)  does EMC 
service for Gateway.

Barry Ma
Antitsu Company
Morgan Hill, CA 95037
-
Original Text
From: "Flinders, Randall" , on 3/4/99 12:50 
PM:
Eric,

We have run into the same problem here at Emulex.  Our Host PC's need to 
provide Class B compliance - something that seems hard to find these days. 
We have evaluated many, many, many PCs, and in the end, decided on a 
Gateway 2000 Tower.

Our requirements are more stringent than most, because our add-in PCI 
adapters implement a 1GHz clock rate and fire off a 1GHz data signal down a 
30 meter copper line.  This presents problems from a chassis integrity 
point of view, due to the fact that we measure to 5 GHz and just about any 
slot is a transmitter at those frequencies.

The Gateway 2000 Tower PC implements conductive gaskets instead of metal 
fingers at the chassis access panel, which eliminates "in-between" slots. 
The gaskets also seem to hold up to continuous opening of the access panel 
better than the fingers, which tend to break and/or bend.  In addition, the 
Gateway 2000 PC has metal fingers installed on the ISA/PCI slots at the 
rear of the chassis, ensuring a good contact to the card brackets.

Our analysis of the PC has shown that the unit provides 4-5 dB of margin to 
CISPR 22 Class B, and was verified on multiple test sites.  I would 
recommend you give Gateway a try. Our unit is Model Number: LPMini-Tower 
6P6-300.  We also chose the upgraded 17" monitor which is made by 
Mitsubishi (Model TFV87055KHKW).  It provides an excellent profile as well.

Good luck on your hunt!

Randy Flinders
EMC Engineer
Emulex Network Systems
(714) 513-8012
randall.flind...@emulex.com


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RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[mkelson]

About 30 years ago, I read a book entitled "The True Believer" by Eric
Hoffer, I think.  In it he stated that revolutionaries often bring
beneficial changes to mankind, but seldom reap the benefits themselves.
Over the years I have found this to be true.  However, I would certainly
encourage anyone who wants to straighten this problem out to go for it. 

-Original Message-
From:   Grasso, Charles (Chaz) [SMTP:gra...@louisville.stortek.com]
Sent:   Friday, March 05, 1999 10:01 AM
To: 'Nathan Belsher'; eric.lif...@natinst.com;
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

I am confused. What's the problem?
If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you
should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.

-Original Message-
From: Nathan Belsher [mailto:nbels...@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:45 AM
To: eric.lif...@natinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR


Eric,

I understand your dilemma.   Having been on both sides of the fence
of this
issue I must say it can be a sticky issue. At the very least it can
be very
time consuming testing various machines to get a quiet one.  Here is
my
current
experience and my recommendation from past experience.

I have just recently finished another round of testing for FCC,
CISPR,
BELLCORE, and EN50082-1 on a system that has gone through this
testing several times as I do my work on ASDL modems.  I have had
better
than
4 dbuv margin on my DELL OPTIPLEX GXPRO 200 MHz. Pentium PRO. Only
the usual
problem of having to reseat the cover has ever been a problem for
us.

I read Randy Flinders comments and he has some merit.  Randy has had
a lot
of
pc testing himself on the West coast.  

Here is my recommendation for power users such as yourself.  Call up
the EMC
department at your friendly PC manufacturer.  Tell them you buy
several
systems a year for EMC testing. Ask for their current recommendation
of a
system to meet your requirements.  Ask them if they will do a
courtesy audit
of the system you buy before you get it and  verify it meets the
required
standards particularly 
radiated emissions.  You can place the order through regular sales
channels
and
have it shipped to the EMC engineering department where they test it
as an
audit test and then ship it on to you with the complimentary data
package.
This may 
add about one month to your procurement cycle but it gets positive
results.
This is the only way I know to be sure you get an EMC compliant
system. 

Nathan Belsher
NORTEL NETWORKS
Senior EMC Engineer
Phone:  (919)-991-2769   ESN:351-2769
FAX: (919)-991-8724
E-Mail:  nbels...@nortelnetworks.com

-Original Message-
From:   eric.lif...@natinst.com
[SMTP:eric.lif...@natinst.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:11 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

Colleagues,

My (formerly) preferred vendor of Intel based personal
computer
systems,
used for CISPR-11/22 and immunity testing of our boards and
peripherals,
are lately having emissions up to the Class A limit fresh
out of the
box -
without any peripherals attached.  So I must query the List
Members
for
experience-based suggestions for make and model of a passing
system
that I
can buy here in the USA.

I need Pentium II equivalent PCI/ISA systems that pass Class
A with
at
least 4 dB of margin and endure EN 50082-1:1992 testing on a
weekly
basis
for most of a year.  Systems that can pass EN 50082-1:1998
(or EN
61326-1:1998) would be nice but I suspect few, if any, are
available.  We
buy about 4 new machines each year as they wear out.

Please don't suggest that I complain to the PC vendor since
I really
don't
have time to spend on the matter.  I've already traded our
newest PC
to
another department that doesn't care about EMC in exchange
for an
older
compliant PC.  I just need a long-term solution.

Most importantly, please send your recommendations direct to
me to
minimize
clutter on the list.  Unless you specify not to, I'll post a
summary
of all
comments t

RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[Grasso, Charles (Chaz)]

Unfortunately - its now the law (of this land) anyway!!

-Original Message-
From: lfresea...@aol.com [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:17 AM
To: Grasso, Charles (Chaz); nbels...@nortelnetworks.com;
eric.lif...@natinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR


In a message dated 3/5/99 11:01:58 AM Central Standard Time,
gra...@louisville.stortek.com writes:

<< I am confused. What's the problem?
 If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
 Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you
 should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.
  >>

I can't imagine ANY EMC engineer having faith in a plug and play approach!

Derek.

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Re: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[Lfresearch]

In a message dated 3/5/99 11:01:58 AM Central Standard Time,
gra...@louisville.stortek.com writes:

<< I am confused. What's the problem?
 If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
 Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you
 should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.
  >>

I can't imagine ANY EMC engineer having faith in a plug and play approach!

Derek.

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Field probes

[John Harrington]

Dear All

We have a Holaday isotropic, broad band field sensing system 
comprising of a HI-4400 monitor and a HI-4421 probe.  These two 
units are connected together by an optical fibre and this is where 
our problem lies.

The system is old and the fibre optic cable has broken.  We have 
been informed by our suppliers that Holaday no longer make the 
cable and that we will have to replace the entire system (the latest 
model uses a different type of fibre optic with different connectors).

This is no solution.

Does any kind hearted soul have a spare cable they'd be willing to 
sell, or even have any information about possible suppliers.

Any help woul be appreciated.

Thank you


John Harrington
EMC Group Manager, KTL Hull
Telephone : +44 (0) 1482 801801
Fax : +44 (0) 1482 801806
email : jharring...@ktl.com


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RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[Grasso, Charles (Chaz)]

I am confused. What's the problem?
If we (the EMC Community) have faith in
Plug & Play (as the new FCC process is dubbed) then you
should be able to buy ANY FCC logoed PC and pass.

-Original Message-
From: Nathan Belsher [mailto:nbels...@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:45 AM
To: eric.lif...@natinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR


Eric,

I understand your dilemma.   Having been on both sides of the fence of this
issue I must say it can be a sticky issue. At the very least it can be very
time consuming testing various machines to get a quiet one.  Here is my
current
experience and my recommendation from past experience.

I have just recently finished another round of testing for FCC, CISPR,
BELLCORE, and EN50082-1 on a system that has gone through this
testing several times as I do my work on ASDL modems.  I have had better
than
4 dbuv margin on my DELL OPTIPLEX GXPRO 200 MHz. Pentium PRO. Only the usual
problem of having to reseat the cover has ever been a problem for us.

I read Randy Flinders comments and he has some merit.  Randy has had a lot
of
pc testing himself on the West coast.  

Here is my recommendation for power users such as yourself.  Call up the EMC
department at your friendly PC manufacturer.  Tell them you buy several
systems a year for EMC testing. Ask for their current recommendation of a
system to meet your requirements.  Ask them if they will do a courtesy audit
of the system you buy before you get it and  verify it meets the required
standards particularly 
radiated emissions.  You can place the order through regular sales channels
and
have it shipped to the EMC engineering department where they test it as an
audit test and then ship it on to you with the complimentary data package.
This may 
add about one month to your procurement cycle but it gets positive results.
This is the only way I know to be sure you get an EMC compliant system. 

Nathan Belsher
NORTEL NETWORKS
Senior EMC Engineer
Phone:  (919)-991-2769   ESN:351-2769
FAX: (919)-991-8724
E-Mail:  nbels...@nortelnetworks.com

-Original Message-
From:   eric.lif...@natinst.com [SMTP:eric.lif...@natinst.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:11 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

Colleagues,

My (formerly) preferred vendor of Intel based personal computer
systems,
used for CISPR-11/22 and immunity testing of our boards and
peripherals,
are lately having emissions up to the Class A limit fresh out of the
box -
without any peripherals attached.  So I must query the List Members
for
experience-based suggestions for make and model of a passing system
that I
can buy here in the USA.

I need Pentium II equivalent PCI/ISA systems that pass Class A with
at
least 4 dB of margin and endure EN 50082-1:1992 testing on a weekly
basis
for most of a year.  Systems that can pass EN 50082-1:1998 (or EN
61326-1:1998) would be nice but I suspect few, if any, are
available.  We
buy about 4 new machines each year as they wear out.

Please don't suggest that I complain to the PC vendor since I really
don't
have time to spend on the matter.  I've already traded our newest PC
to
another department that doesn't care about EMC in exchange for an
older
compliant PC.  I just need a long-term solution.

Most importantly, please send your recommendations direct to me to
minimize
clutter on the list.  Unless you specify not to, I'll post a summary
of all
comments to the list since I believe others are equally interested
in the
results.

Regards and Thanks In Advance,
Eric Lifsey
Compliance Engineer/Manager
National Instruments



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RE: New EMC requirements proposed for IEC60335

[Cortland Richmond]

Ravinder,

Indeed, the IBM ESD furniture-type ESD simulator should be long remembered!

The purpose of this kind of test is equipment a customer will WANT to buy.
If we are wise, we go _beyond_ what the law requires, so we will gain the
trust of our customers. Often, management views tests such as these as an
expensive, necessary evil, but they are more vital than that.

I once saw color TV's on sale for $75. When I asked why, the store manager
told me the parent company -- which I will not name -- had gotten a great
deal on color TV's and didn't realize until too late that the manufacturer
sold them on the understanding that a third of 'em wouldn't work out of the
box.

"No problem! Throw away bad set. You buy cheap TV, still make money!"

What it did to customer loyalty... I understand that national chain is no
longer in business.

Ad astra -- per Aspirin!

Cortland


=
On 4 March, Ravinder Ajmani wrote:


I fully support Lacey's views about performing some immunity testing on the
products, in order to improve their reliability.

Long before FCC/EU implemented EMC requirements on the electronic products,
IBM had formulated emissions and immunity standards for their products. 
Even now some of the IBM standards are tougher than the FCC/EU standards, 
while a few others do not figure in EU requirements.  The only purpose for
these internal standards is to make sure that customer has no cause for
complaints, even when the equipment is not used as per the manufacturer's
recommendations.  We keep on devising new tests to emulate the working of
our products under severe stress conditions, some of which may be caused by
the poor quality of auxiliary equipment used by our customers.  Again, if
these extra requirements are designed-in, the cost to the company is
extremely low.  All it needs is the awareness in the designers to take
these requirements in to consideration at the early design stage.  Bigger
companies like IBM can afford to have a dedicated person overseeing these
needs, but then they also have lot more products.  Smaller companies can
train there design engineers in EMC practices.  Also, there are inexpensive
tools, which although not perfect, can provide big help in making first
prototype almost right.  All this certainly saves you big bucks at the test
labs, and putting retrofits to mitigate EMC problems, once the product has
been built.

As Lacey has pointed out, we are going to see more susceptibility problems
in household equipment as our home PCs become faster and faster, and
microprocessors are used in increasing numbers of household appliances.

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RE: C-Tick importer variation

[kohscp]

Thanks guys for your precious advice.
I now have some direction on how to approach this issue and what options
can I go for.
It would also depends on my company business direction.

In my opinion, I would think that having the product with the original N555
is still the best option. (Of course provided the supplier agreed on this)
Reason is that they are the manufacturer and if we are just selling the
same product (with just change of label information). We won't be able to
know if there's changes within those shipped product. So ultimately,
compliance resposibility still preferred falls under the manufacture AS/NZ
office.

Finally again. Thanks to those who has responded to my quiry.

At 08:46 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Kevin Richardson wrote:
>Koh,
>
>To expand on Dick Shultz's comments, the importer is ultimately responsible
>for ensuring compliance with EMC in Australia (Compliance Folder, DoC etc).
> 
>
>You can work in both ways you outlined in your original questions:
>a)  leave the original N555 label on providing you take certain measures;
>or
>b)  have the N123 label put on.
>
>For a) above you would need to follow the basic procedure outlined by Dick
>but I would clarify this by the following.
>Providing agreement is gained, in writing, from another organisation
>already importing the same product into Australia that they will "act as
>agent" for your organisation in terms of responsibility for EMC compliance
>of the product (maintain the Compliance Folder, sign the DoC etc) this is
>acceptable.  You need to keep a copy of the written agreement.  You are not
>required to complete a DoC.
>
>Any changes to the product (brand name, model etc or change in engineering
>design) are acceptable PROVIDING those changes are clearly addressed
>(explained and continued compliance justified) in the "Agent's" Compliance
>Folder AND DoC.  If the name change of model change or engineering change
>is not specifically covered by the test reports etc then the normal method
>is as Dick suggested, ie provide a signed attestation confirming your
>product is the same etc.  This would also be done by the "Agent".  As you
>can see, by agreement to act as "Agent" that organisation is assuming full
>responsibility for that product's compliance in Australia, when sold by
>your organisation.
>
>For b) above, your organisation would be responsible for all compliance
>issues if your label is on the product (ie N123).  This means the
>Compliance Folder, DoC etc.  These must all be established and maintained
>by your organisation.  In this instance you would normally gain agreement
>from the supplier/manufacturer that they can provide you with test reports
>etc for inclusion in your Compliance Folder.  If because a a name change
>for your particular organisation etc or different model numbers were used
>to those detailed in the test report then your organisation would require,
>for inclusion in your Compliance Folder, a signed attestation from the
>supplier/manufacturer that the products you will be selling are the same as
>those tested etc.
>
>As with all issues regulatory, everywhere, it is always the finer points
>and subtleties of the legislation/regulation which give rise to questions!
>
>Product Variations
>The documentation in the Compliance Folder must identify the product in
>question.  As such, if the product name or model number is different to
>that detailed in the test report or the product is modified etc AND
>providing those changes do not adversely impact the EMC characteristics of
>the device, a signed attestation to that effect is all that is required to
>be included in the Compliance Folder.
>
>Hope this helps.
>Best regards,
>Kevin
>
>> Sender: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>> Received: from ruebert.ieee.org (ruebert.ieee.org [199.172.136.3])
>>   by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.18) with ESMTP id

>PAA15217;
>>   Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:52:20 -0500 (EST)
>> Received:  by ruebert.ieee.org (8.8.8/8.8.8)
>>   id PAA25508; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:49:58 -0500 (EST)
>> Message-Id: <9903022053.aa18...@ibmserver.admin.brooktrout.com>
>> Subject: RE: C-Tick importer variation
>> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:51:24 -0500
>> X-Sender: r...@nhmail1.brooktrout.com
>> X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
>> From: Dick Shultz 
>> To: , 
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>> Sender: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>> Precedence: bulk
>> Reply-To: Dick Shultz 
>> X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients 
>> X-Listname: emc-pstc
>> X-Info: Help requests to  emc-pstc-requ...@majordomo.ieee.org
>> X-Info: [Un]Subscribe requests to  majord...@majordomo.ieee.org
>> X-Moderator-Address: emc-pstc-appro...@majordomo.ieee.org
>> 
>> Koh,
>> 
>> You can continue to import product with the N555 code on it if your 
>> importer (N123) has a written agreement with importer N555 to do so. Your
>
>> importer will need to maintain this letter in his files for ACA audits.
>> 
>> I know that this has c

RE: PCB coating questions

[Lacey,Scott]

Arjen,

For insulation over PCB traces, some types of dry film solder mask might be
suitable. These films are manufactured to a consistent thickness, and then
laminated to the PCB. You need to check with your board vendor as to types
and approval ratings. These films are very tough, just ask anyone who has
ever tried to scrape through one in order to expose a trace for rework.

You will want to make sure that your PCBs are fabricated as SMOBC, or solder
mask over bare copper.Tin coatings have a tendency to flow when boards are
wave soldered or reflowed, and may weaken the integrity of solder mask. You
will also get better performance at high frequencies.

As to conformal coatings, there are several issues to consider. The first is
cleanliness. No-clean flux leaves a thin film over the PCB surface which
will prevent proper adhesion of coatings. Most conformal coatings are
intended for protection against moisture and humidity, and voids under the
coating won't matter. For arc prevention, the coating must adhere tightly to
the board and components.

The second issue is how much of the board to coat. Coatings tend to
interfere with repairs. Even "repairable" coatings make the job more
difficult, and more importantly, tend to create voids when heated with a
soldering iron. If only certain portions of your boards require protection
you might consider selectively applying an epoxy potting compound to those
areas.

I hope that this will be of some help.

Scott

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RE: Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

[Nathan Belsher]

Eric,

I understand your dilemma.   Having been on both sides of the fence of this
issue I must say it can be a sticky issue. At the very least it can be very
time consuming testing various machines to get a quiet one.  Here is my
current
experience and my recommendation from past experience.

I have just recently finished another round of testing for FCC, CISPR,
BELLCORE, and EN50082-1 on a system that has gone through this
testing several times as I do my work on ASDL modems.  I have had better
than
4 dbuv margin on my DELL OPTIPLEX GXPRO 200 MHz. Pentium PRO. Only the usual
problem of having to reseat the cover has ever been a problem for us.

I read Randy Flinders comments and he has some merit.  Randy has had a lot
of
pc testing himself on the West coast.  

Here is my recommendation for power users such as yourself.  Call up the EMC
department at your friendly PC manufacturer.  Tell them you buy several
systems a year for EMC testing. Ask for their current recommendation of a
system to meet your requirements.  Ask them if they will do a courtesy audit
of the system you buy before you get it and  verify it meets the required
standards particularly 
radiated emissions.  You can place the order through regular sales channels
and
have it shipped to the EMC engineering department where they test it as an
audit test and then ship it on to you with the complimentary data package.
This may 
add about one month to your procurement cycle but it gets positive results.
This is the only way I know to be sure you get an EMC compliant system. 

Nathan Belsher
NORTEL NETWORKS
Senior EMC Engineer
Phone:  (919)-991-2769   ESN:351-2769
FAX: (919)-991-8724
E-Mail:  nbels...@nortelnetworks.com

-Original Message-
From:   eric.lif...@natinst.com [SMTP:eric.lif...@natinst.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 6:11 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:Seeking PCs that Pass CISPR

Colleagues,

My (formerly) preferred vendor of Intel based personal computer
systems,
used for CISPR-11/22 and immunity testing of our boards and
peripherals,
are lately having emissions up to the Class A limit fresh out of the
box -
without any peripherals attached.  So I must query the List Members
for
experience-based suggestions for make and model of a passing system
that I
can buy here in the USA.

I need Pentium II equivalent PCI/ISA systems that pass Class A with
at
least 4 dB of margin and endure EN 50082-1:1992 testing on a weekly
basis
for most of a year.  Systems that can pass EN 50082-1:1998 (or EN
61326-1:1998) would be nice but I suspect few, if any, are
available.  We
buy about 4 new machines each year as they wear out.

Please don't suggest that I complain to the PC vendor since I really
don't
have time to spend on the matter.  I've already traded our newest PC
to
another department that doesn't care about EMC in exchange for an
older
compliant PC.  I just need a long-term solution.

Most importantly, please send your recommendations direct to me to
minimize
clutter on the list.  Unless you specify not to, I'll post a summary
of all
comments to the list since I believe others are equally interested
in the
results.

Regards and Thanks In Advance,
Eric Lifsey
Compliance Engineer/Manager
National Instruments



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RE: PCB coating questions

[Daniel Sicard]

Arjen,

Board with only solder mask is considered as non coated.

Conformal coating is the type accepted to be allowed to reduce the spacing
between trace.  However be aware that your safety agency will have to test
that coating.  The test is described in UL1950 (I do not remember the
section and do not have the standard at hand now).  Also an audit of your
process for applying the coating will be performed periodically.  This is in
addition to the normal safety audit.

Daniel Sicard 
Compliance Engineer / Ingénieur Certification
Transport Systems Business Unit
RELTEC Corporation
Tel: 514-685-1737 Ext. 4631  Fax: 514-822-4054
Web: http://www.relteccorp.com E-mail: mailto:dsic...@positronfiber.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Arjen Dragt [SMTP:adr...@inverpower.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:59 PM
> To:   EMC-PSTC Listserv
> Subject:  PCB coating questions
> 
> In looking at meeting CSA and UL spacing requirements for some of our
> PCB's (in power supplies up to 600 V) some questions concerning the use of
> conformal coatings (allowing reduction of spacing) have come up.  The
> information that  I am seeking is for both CSA and UL; the wording that
> they use concerning "coatings" on boards is similar, but not the same.
>  
> "Coatings" on a PCB could include both a solder mask, and a strict
> conformal coating.  Does anybody have real-world knowledge as to whether
> or not a solder mask is accepted by UL/CSA as a "coating", and if so,
> under what conditions?
>  
> Also, the method by which a coating is applied to a board could have
> considerable impact on the effectiveness of that coating.  For instance,
> spraying a board will not get at any traces that are buried underneath
> components, whereas dipping will have a better chance of accessing those
> "hidden" areas.  The standards that I am looking at say nothing about
> method of applying a coating (the process).  I assume that the decision as
> to how a coating will be applied is left up to the manufacturer and board
> supplier.  Does anybody out there have best practices that are worth
> considering when looking at our options for coating methods?
>  
> Arjen Dragt

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Digital Set-top Box is not Broadcast receivers?

[Tommy]

Hellow Group.

I confuse the standard of Digital Set-Top Box LUCCE-2000 whether it is ITE.
It is called 'Set-Top Box' usually.But It has differnt things compare with 
Set-Top Box.
It has two major product family standards.

First,About ITE function

- Ethernet Port ;
  High speed Internet output to a PC.
  At this time it operate like as Modem.

- LINE Input Port ;
  Receive MPEG encording Data from Digital casting Company.-> memory(36M) 
function
  It decording the received data and then display.-> processing
  
Second,About Broadcast receivers function

- RF IN Jacks ;
  For additonal signal input:TV antenna,cable company etc.

- RCA AUDIO&VIDEO Jacks ;
  Output for compatible VCR and/or TV equipped with input jacks.

Though it should be tested comply with EN55013 and EN55020,there are some unfit 
point.

- It doesn't have Tuner.Antenna Jack is only bypass to RF Out jack.
  This jack must be connectd to a cable source if the user wish to
  watch one program through the TV tuner while recording another through
  the ITV Box tuner.

What Standards are it be applied?
I think that is ITE.

Would be happy to help. 

Best regards.

Tommy.

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RE: CE marking - self-certification and the long arm of the law

[Gary McInturff]

Peter,
Thanks for your ideas. I might add that I like to have one of the
people above my level and within the same company to sign it while pointing
out that there are penalties for signing falsely these documents. It helps
to calm down those who also ask questions like "what are the chances we'll
get caught"! Its always easier to get it done properly if they have some
personal stake in the consequences.
Just so that a bunch of legal authorities don't start showing up at
my desk,  I would point out that I have never  had this problem here, and I
won't identify the person or the company that I really had a heartburn
trying to convince.  But I have in the past had to throw a few raging fits
over the early shipping of a product.
Gary

-Original Message-
From:   Peter E. Perkins [mailto:peperk...@compuserve.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 8:50 PM
To: PSNetwork
Subject:CE marking - self-certification and the long
arm of the law


PSNet & Richard,

The legal questions can only be answered by European
lawyers and
courts.  As far as I know, there have not been any cases
which looked to
hold non-Europeans responsible to the extent they would be
fined or serve
jail time.  If it is a major problem we can expect
international
negotiations to extradite folks for this.  

But practically,  if the product is sold by a
company which has any
European presence - a subsidiary, dealer or importer - the
courts probably
could find a way to hold one of those folks responsible.  I
know of a case
where the President of a sub was jailed because a product
didn't meet
European safety requirements.  I have heard of another case
where an
executive of a large company was handcuffed and taken away
at immigration
because he was named as being responsible for some action
that was not
allowed in Europe - unfortunately, this poor fellow was
coming to Europe
for a vacation, not on company business and his wife and
family were just
left standing there to fend for themselves...  

For smaller companies, I recommend that they get one
of their Euro
contacts - importers, dealers, etc. - to countersign the
MDoC to provide
the 'going to jail' person.  There are, also, some firms
(legal firms, as I
remember) who will sign and hold your MDoC, etc for a
nominal fee...  

What other routes might be available?  perhaps
others have some
ideas... 


- - - - -

Peter E Perkins
Principal Product Safety Consultant
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

+1/503/452-1201 phone/fax

p.perk...@ieee.org  email

visit our website:


http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/peperkins

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Philippines & India

[Serge F Bousquet]

Would anyone be so kind as to indicate which ITE requirements along with
approval programs, if any, cover EMC and Safety for the following countries;

India
Philippines

Your kind assistance would be most appreciated.



Serge F R Bousquet
124 Changklan Road, (#109)
Muang, Chiang Mai, 50100
Kingdom of Thailand
Telephone & Facsimile: (66)53 816326
Internet: 

92 VT1100c



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FW: HIgh Field Testing

[CKC Laboratories, Inc.]

CKC Laboratories can do large portions of HIRF testing, and would be happy to 
help. 

Please Contact: Pat Andre'
Laboratory Manager / EMC Consultant
CKC Laboratories
Redmond, Wa. 
pan...@ckc.com

Sincerely,
Steve Behm
Laboratory Supervisor
CKC Laboratories
sb...@ckc.com


-Original Message-
From:   lfresea...@aol.com [SMTP:lfresea...@aol.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:08 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:HIgh Field Testing

Hi there,

I'm looking for locations that can help me HIRF test an LRU. This unit is
mounted outside the fuselage on a rotary aircraft. Not a really nice place to
be

Thanks,

Derek.

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