Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

2014-07-01 Thread John Woodgate
In message 
<5c52112599464b5a87311098bd480...@bl2pr08mb052.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
, dated Wed, 2 Jul 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:


The standard reads "for each supply ".  I was assuming this was 
referring/allowing for multiple concurrent supplies on the same 
machine.  You think it was referring to different options for a single 
supply?  For example ratings for 1 single phase 60Hz supply or 1 single 
phase 50Hz supply or 1 3 phase supply?


Yes, because different options for a single supply is a far more common 
occurrence. but I agree that it could also mean 'more than one 
connection to a supply source'.


My first thought before reading the standard was to put everything 
required on one nameplate only including only the primary power supply 
ratings located adjacent the primary power input.  A secondary rating 
plate would go adjacent the second power input with only the supply 
ratings on it.  Duplicating the serial number and CE mark seemed wrong 
to me at first but after thinking about it I guess it would be OK.  I 
could not find anything regarding whether or not multiple CE marks were 
OK for the same product.


If a standard doesn't prohibit something, you can do it. It's a bit more 
complicated for the CE mark, because it isn't controlled by a standard 
but by a Directive. But the same applies: I don't recall any ban on 
multiple CE marks.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

2014-07-01 Thread Scott Douglas
I recall some standards require a warning label at each power entry 
point something to the effect that there are more than one power entry 
for this product. And I think that the rating label at a given power 
entry point is just for that particular entry point. Don't ask me where 
I got all that from, my old brain cannot see that far.


Scott


On 7/1/2014 10:15 PM, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:

The standard reads "for each supply ".  I was assuming this was 
referring/allowing for multiple concurrent supplies on the same machine.  You think it 
was referring to different options for a single supply?  For example ratings for 1 single 
phase 60Hz supply or 1 single phase 50Hz supply or 1 3 phase supply?

My first thought before reading the standard was to put everything required on 
one nameplate only including only the primary power supply ratings located 
adjacent the primary power input.  A secondary rating plate would go adjacent 
the second power input with only the supply ratings on it.  Duplicating the 
serial number and CE mark seemed wrong to me at first but after thinking about 
it I guess it would be OK.  I could not find anything regarding whether or not 
multiple CE marks were OK for the same product.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 12:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

In message

, dated Tue, 1 Jul 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave"
 writes:


Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by
some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power
supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies?  Or
only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the
nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)?  Seems
like the former.

It appears that the standard does not consider the case of multiple supplies in 
this clause (if at all). So you have to consider what to do and document your 
decision in the safety assessment document.

If you can put everything about both supplies on both nameplates, you could 
hardly be criticized.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

2014-07-01 Thread Nyffenegger, Dave
The standard reads "for each supply ".  I was assuming this was 
referring/allowing for multiple concurrent supplies on the same machine.  You 
think it was referring to different options for a single supply?  For example 
ratings for 1 single phase 60Hz supply or 1 single phase 50Hz supply or 1 3 
phase supply?

My first thought before reading the standard was to put everything required on 
one nameplate only including only the primary power supply ratings located 
adjacent the primary power input.  A secondary rating plate would go adjacent 
the second power input with only the supply ratings on it.  Duplicating the 
serial number and CE mark seemed wrong to me at first but after thinking about 
it I guess it would be OK.  I could not find anything regarding whether or not 
multiple CE marks were OK for the same product.

-Dave 

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 12:54 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

In message

, dated Tue, 1 Jul 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:

>Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by 
>some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power 
>supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies?  Or 
>only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the 
>nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)?  Seems 
>like the former.

It appears that the standard does not consider the case of multiple supplies in 
this clause (if at all). So you have to consider what to do and document your 
decision in the safety assessment document.

If you can put everything about both supplies on both nameplates, you could 
hardly be criticized.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

2014-07-01 Thread John Woodgate
In message 

, dated Tue, 1 Jul 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:


Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by 
some distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power 
supplies needs to be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies?  Or 
only the rating for the supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the 
nameplate (each nameplate would have the rating for one supply)?  Seems 
like the former.


It appears that the standard does not consider the case of multiple 
supplies in this clause (if at all). So you have to consider what to do 
and document your decision in the safety assessment document.


If you can put everything about both supplies on both nameplates, you 
could hardly be criticized.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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[PSES] test3

2014-07-01 Thread Pete Perkins
test3

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

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[PSES] test1

2014-07-01 Thread Pete Perkins
test1

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

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[PSES] test2

2014-07-01 Thread Pete Perkins
test2

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

-

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Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

2014-07-01 Thread Mike Sherman ----- Original Message -----
The latter makes more sense to me. I see a critical purpose of the nameplate as 
providing the instructions to the electrician regarding how to properly bring 
and protect the mains supply to the machine. I don't want any confusion in this 
matter. 

Mike Sherman 
Graco Inc. 

- Original Message -

From: "Dave Nyffenegger"  
To: "EMC-PSTC"  
Sent: Tuesday, July 1, 2014 5:25:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources 



Related to this, EN 60204-1:2006 16.4 states “ A nameplate giving the following 
information shall be attached to the enclosure adjacent to each incoming 
supply: 

– name or trade mark of supplier; – certification mark, when required; – serial 
number, where applicable; – rated voltage, number of phases and frequency (if 
a.c.), and full-load current for each supply; – short-circuit rating of the 
equipment; – main document number (see IEC 62023). ” 




Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some 
distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to 
be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies? Or only the rating for the supply 
adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would have 
the rating for one supply)? Seems like the former. 



thanks 

-Dave 




From: Nyffenegger, Dave 
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:50 AM 
To: Anthony Thomson; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple power sources 




Sounds like I may need to compromise and make some labels with minimal text in 
just a few languages referring to the documentation and use the appropriate 
label for where the product is being installed. Since these systems are 
customized and built to order we be able to determine ahead of time which 
language(s) are needed. 

Thanks 

-Dave 




From: Anthony Thomson [ mailto:ton...@europe.com ] 
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 4:35 AM 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources 





Hi Dave, 





Often 'one size' does not 'fit all' and you have to customise or configure 
products according customer requirements or destination market. It's never 
ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration 
management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way. 





You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration 
of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or 
contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use. 





Just my opinion, 


Tony. 





Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM 
From: "Nyffenegger, Dave" < dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com > 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] Multiple power sources 


Hi folks, 

This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU 
for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive. 

EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states 

"Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or 
HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the 
entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous 
parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate 
the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate 
each section of the equipment." 

EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states 

"Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a 
prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for 
the removal of all power from the unit." 

The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is 
that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each 
of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the 
appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the 
appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the 
requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is 
available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages 
on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate 
language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have 
to be done per unit as applicable. 

I'm wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for 
fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the 
requirement of having all text be in one of the official community languages 
for each installation location. 

Thanks 
-Dave 

David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE 
Product Development Manager 
Bell and Howell 

- 
 
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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < 
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All e

Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

2014-07-01 Thread Nyffenegger, Dave
Related to this,  EN 60204-1:2006 16.4 states “A nameplate giving the following 
information shall be attached to the enclosure adjacent to each incoming supply:
– name or trade mark of supplier; – certification mark, when required; – serial 
number, where applicable; – rated voltage, number of phases and frequency (if 
a.c.), and full-load current for each supply; – short-circuit rating of the 
equipment; – main document number (see IEC 62023).”
Does this mean for a machine with two incoming supplies (separated by some 
distance) a nameplate containing the ratings for both power supplies needs to 
be on both nameplates adjacent both supplies?  Or only the rating for the 
supply adjacent the nameplate should be on the nameplate (each nameplate would 
have the rating for one supply)?  Seems like the former.

thanks
-Dave

From: Nyffenegger, Dave
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:50 AM
To: Anthony Thomson; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple power sources

Sounds like I may need to compromise and make some labels with minimal text in 
just a few languages referring to the documentation and use the appropriate 
label for where the product is being installed.  Since these systems are 
customized and built to order we be able to determine ahead of time which 
language(s) are needed.
Thanks
-Dave

From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 4:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple power sources

Hi Dave,

Often 'one size' does not 'fit all' and you have to customise or configure 
products according customer requirements or destination market. It's never 
ideal because it carries engineering, manufacturing/supply, configuration 
management and inventory overheads, but sometimes its the best and/or only way.

You may (and should) get away with limited language versions of the Declaration 
of Conformity but textual safety information either attached to equipment or 
contained within manuals MUST be in the local language(s) of the point of use.

Just my opinion,
Tony.

Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 at 8:19 PM
From: "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com>>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Multiple power sources
Hi folks,

This question is in regards to fulfilling the language requirements in the EU 
for CE for large light industrial equipment subject to the Machinery Directive.

EN 60950-1:2006 1.7.9 Isolation of multiple power sources states

"Where there is more than one connection supplying HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES or 
HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVELS to equipment, a prominent marking, located close to the 
entry point provided for a SERVICE PERSON to gain access to the hazardous 
parts, shall be provided to indicate which disconnect device or devices isolate 
the equipment completely and which disconnect devices can be used to isolate 
each section of the equipment."

EN 60950-1:2006 3.4.11 Multiple power sources states

"Where a unit receives power from more than one source, there shall be a 
prominent marking at each disconnect device giving adequate instructions for 
the removal of all power from the unit."

The product in question has two power sources/disconnects. My assumption is 
that simply slapping some ISO 8001, 8002, and ISO 7134 pictogram labels at each 
of the disconnects and documenting the details in the service manual in the 
appropriate language is not sufficient. Therefore some descriptive text in the 
appropriate language needs to be present at each disconnect to satisfy the 
requirements. Depending on what that is, what size, and how much space is 
available it may be possible to put the instructions in all required languages 
on each unit at each disconnect or we may need to put only appropriate 
language(s) for the country we are shipping the unit to which would then have 
to be done per unit as applicable.

I'm wondering if anyone has any creative examples/references/suggestions for 
fulfilling these requirements in a simple manner while also meeting the 
requirement of having all text be in one of the official community languages 
for each installation location.

Thanks
-Dave

David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE
Product Development Manager
Bell and Howell

-

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Re: [PSES] Recommendations for ASME BPV

2014-07-01 Thread Brian Oconnell
Dunno, in the Peoples' Republic of Kalifornia, we can use the state OSHA as it 
is accredited to asses all types of pressure vessels, but do not believe that 
any other state has this 'service'.

The ASME.org site has a listing of accredited organizations, and they may be 
able to provide a list of accredited individuals. Perhaps the path of least 
impedance would be to use the TUVR lab designated for this stuff.

Brian

From: Rick Busche [mailto:rick.bus...@qnergy.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 10:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Recommendations for ASME BPV

Does anyone have a recommendation for an ASME BPV authorized inspector (Section 
8 VIII) in Utah or perhaps the western United States? If so, please contact me 
off line.

Thanks

Rick

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[PSES] Recommendations for ASME BPV

2014-07-01 Thread Rick Busche
Does anyone have a recommendation for an ASME BPV authorized inspector (Section 
8 VIII) in Utah or perhaps the western United States? If so, please contact me 
off line.

Thanks

Rick



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