Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Phil Stracchino]

On 12/02/15 13:59, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> E-mail lists (or NNTP, darn it! ❤gmane❤) are less obnoxious than
> every software program using their own individual web-based forums
> (never mind that web-based forums - and web-based e-mail, for that
> matter - are just generally more annoying), and I really don't see
> businesses switching to social networks for internal communication.

Can't argue with the webforum part.  Webfora are an atrocious medium for
communication.

Social media, however ... it depends what you classify under the "social
media" umbrella.  My current employer has switched from IRC and Jabber
to Slack for near-realtime internal communication, plus the front office
deployed some kind of internal facebooky thing some months back that as
far as I can tell only the front-office suits actually use.  As far as
the rest of us are concerned, it does nothing useful.  Fifteen years
ago, Cygnus Solutions used ICB (a sort of IRC Lite with standalone
servers) for much of its internal communication.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  ph...@caerllewys.net
  p...@co.ordinate.org
  Landline: 603.293.8485



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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Samir Nassar]

On Thursday, December 03, 2015 10:43:54 AM Mike Acker wrote:
> I was horrified to learn that T-Bird would switch to OpenPGP
> in order to comply with Mozilla's demand that all code be in JavaScript

This is not happening and I would encourage you to not post unverified 
information that is unhelpful to other users.

> if T-Bird is divested from Mozilla to become an independent open source
> project then the demand for JavaScript would be of no effect.

There is a big if there and the conclusion is in no way the only one.

-- 
Samir Nassar
Digital Security Trainer & Consultant
sa...@samirnassar.com
https://samirnassar.com


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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Robert J. Hansen]

> Even in corporate settings?

Especially in corporate settings.  Most employees don't like email and
try to avoid it.  Most of what enters an employee's corporate inbox is
spam generated by that same corporation: company-wide emails that really
should've been sent to a small group, invitations to participate in
holiday programs, reminders to fill out timesheets, and the infamous
inappropriate reply-to-all.  (I once had over 300 messages in my inbox
one day spurred on by one person RtA with "please remove me from this
distribution list", which in turn 'inspired' 299 other people to RtA and
say the same.)

Corporations use email because they must -- not because they
particularly want to.  Lync, Skype for Business, SMS, Google Hangouts,
and more, are all cutting deeply into the existing email model.

> Use may be "declining", but I doubt e-mail is going to go away any 
> time soon.

I didn't say it was going away.  I said it was in a decline.

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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Mike Acker]

  
  
Linux Mozilla 
:-[  my bad

this is nonetheless an interesting development.   on the one hand
I'd hate to see Thunderbird lapse and become inconsequential .   
OTH this could be an opportunity for T-Bird to break away from
Mozilla policy -- which might not be in the best interest of an
eMail client

I've been playing with the CLAWS eMail client -- which works quite
well, but, in my view, doesn't come close to T-Bird although I'm
still sifting through the plug-ins which CLAWS seems to depend on .

CLAWS has a prohibition against composing messages in HTML -- even
though this seems to be the most used method these days.. they
might take their concept 1 step further and go more like the old
Fido net-- use external editors only and treat e/mail as an envelop
.    then focus on the GnuPG/GPGME interface .

On 12/02/2015 11:30 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
On 02.12.15 12:47, Mike Acker wrote:
  > the news I'm reading LWN
   suggests
  > that Thunderbird's separation from Linux -- is is done deal
  
  You mean Mozilla - not Linux.
  
  > hopefully Thunderbird will just become its own project
  > thoughts,-anyone?
  
  Some people would agree and others would disagree.
  
  I know that there are ongoing discussions between involved and
  interested parties about how this transition could or should look
  like. I'm sure, once the dust has cleared, the public will be
  informed
  about concrete next steps.
  
  
  -Patrick
  
  
  
  
  

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-- 
/Mike

  




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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Mike Acker]

  
  
I have to agree with your
  remarks although I'd like to add that, in my view, eMail use will
  approach a horizontal asymptote: ending as a sort of "good old
  standby".    "FWIW" I think more and more people are recognizing
  the issues with "social media" and this seems to manifest as the
  "in crowd" ( whoever that is ? -- "millenials"  ?  teens ? ) --
  tend to shift from fad to fad
  
  from a business standpoint e/mail seems to be "base"
  communication: the one we expect net users to have -- at a
  minimum.   i.e. the odds of a network user having e/mail would be
  higher than that he or she would be on a particular social media.
  
  i terms of e/mail though -- and I suspect most folks would agree
  -- the trend seems to be to web-base clients -- although these
  seem to be sluggish and messy  .   

On 12/02/2015 01:38 PM, Robert J.
  Hansen wrote:


  
this is nonetheless an interesting development.   on the one hand I'd
hate to see Thunderbird lapse and become inconsequential .

  
  
To a large extent it already has.  Email usage has been declining for
many years.  The largest person-to-person communications medium today is
Facebook Messenger.  (Which has all manner of privacy implications,
don't get me wrong; I'm not endorsing this change.)

Email is a diminishing market, and email clients like Thunderbird are
grabbing a diminishing share of a diminishing market.  The only good
news is that since the entire system is open-source, it's going to be
harder to kill than Rasputin.

And as long as Thunderbird's around, we're going to be, too.  :)

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-- 
/Mike
  


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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Stephen]

On 02.12.2015 at 19:38 Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> this is nonetheless an interesting development.   on the one hand I'd
>> hate to see Thunderbird lapse and become inconsequential .
> 
> To a large extent it already has.  Email usage has been declining for
> many years.  The largest person-to-person communications medium today is
> Facebook Messenger.  (Which has all manner of privacy implications,
> don't get me wrong; I'm not endorsing this change.)
> 
> Email is a diminishing market, and email clients like Thunderbird are
> grabbing a diminishing share of a diminishing market.

I am not aware of any objective way to determine whether e-mail usage
has been declining or increasing, and I would take Facebook's claims
with a sizable grain of salt. The company's stock price depends on
people believing them.

E-mail remains the primary form of written communication in business,
and I expect it to remain that way for the foreseeable future, given
that it still has some semblance of configurability, standardization and
decentralization.

If anything, it is the market for stand-alone mail clients that is
diminishing. Webmail is accessible from any computer with a reasonably
modern web-browser. This is probably how a large majority now use
e-mail. Most people cannot be bothered with the effort needed to
configure a mail user agent.

I hope this won't be the ultimate death of Thunderbird. Ms. Baker claims
she uses it herself, so that gives me some hope that this won't be the
ultimate end of Thunderbird. But it still looks grim.

In any event, I still need a reliable and feature-rich mail user agent
with good public key encryption support.

Best regards

Stephen Bosch

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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Robert J. Hansen]

> E-mail remains the primary form of written communication in business,

This depends a lot on your business.  I know a fair number of
businesspeople who rely on SMS far more than they do email.  Skype for
Business, Lync, and Google Hangouts are also transforming how business
communicates.

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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Phil Stracchino]

On 12/02/15 14:51, Stephen wrote:
> If anything, it is the market for stand-alone mail clients that is
> diminishing. Webmail is accessible from any computer with a reasonably
> modern web-browser. This is probably how a large majority now use
> e-mail. Most people cannot be bothered with the effort needed to
> configure a mail user agent.

You make a good point.  Except that it should be "any computer or mobile
device with a reasonably modern web browser".  And always with the
caveat that it means entrusting the storage and security of your email
communications to someone else who may not necessarily have an interest
in keeping it as secure as you would like.


-- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  ph...@caerllewys.net
  p...@co.ordinate.org
  Landline: 603.293.8485



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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[charlton.aus...@gmail.com]

On 12/2/15 3:50 PM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> On 12/02/15 14:51, Stephen wrote:
>> If anything, it is the market for stand-alone mail clients that is
>> diminishing. Webmail is accessible from any computer with a reasonably
>> modern web-browser. This is probably how a large majority now use
>> e-mail. Most people cannot be bothered with the effort needed to
>> configure a mail user agent.
> 
> You make a good point.  Except that it should be "any computer or mobile
> device with a reasonably modern web browser".  And always with the
> caveat that it means entrusting the storage and security of your email
> communications to someone else who may not necessarily have an interest
> in keeping it as secure as you would like.

I'd love to see an open source project that address exactly this issue.
Maybe a web client that allows you to use a smart card to encrypt,
decrypt, and sign messages. Obviously it would have to be open source
and there are some serious security issues to overcome, but it would be
nice to have more access to my encrypted messages. Also the economics
would be hard. Who wants to pay for an email service when you can get it
for "free"?

> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Phil Kane]

On 12/2/2015 11:48 AM, Mike Acker wrote:

> i terms of e/mail though -- and I suspect most folks would agree -- the
> trend seems to be to web-base clients -- although these seem to be
> sluggish and messy  .  

Some of our firm's clients are sensitive security entities, and as a
result we are not permitted to have  "social media" accounts or
applications using storage outside our own system (i.e. "cloud",
"dropbox", etc.) on any of our computers.  Our servers are in a secure
location on our premises.   Standard e-mail clients such as Thunderbird
are required.

Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County)  Oregon



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Re: [Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Charlton Austin]

Definitely. ProtonMail is pretty legit. It is open source (at least the
client) and seems to do full end to end encryption. The only problem with
ProtonMail is that you don't have control over the private key that's
generated. Also you have to trust (check the client throughly) to make sure
your private key and the associated password are not being stored anywhere.
I wish they would move to a default system like they have now, but allow
for more nuanced key controls for those that would like it. Still it is
pretty early and over the last year the clients (the web and now the iOS in
beta client) have gotten better and better so maybe that's in the future.

On Wednesday, December 2, 2015, Bob Williams  wrote:

> On 02/12/15 21:01, charlton.aus...@gmail.com  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/2/15 3:50 PM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> >> On 12/02/15 14:51, Stephen wrote:
> >>> If anything, it is the market for stand-alone mail clients that is
> >>> diminishing. Webmail is accessible from any computer with a reasonably
> >>> modern web-browser. This is probably how a large majority now use
> >>> e-mail. Most people cannot be bothered with the effort needed to
> >>> configure a mail user agent.
> >>
> >> You make a good point.  Except that it should be "any computer or mobile
> >> device with a reasonably modern web browser".  And always with the
> >> caveat that it means entrusting the storage and security of your email
> >> communications to someone else who may not necessarily have an interest
> >> in keeping it as secure as you would like.
> >
> > I'd love to see an open source project that address exactly this issue.
> > Maybe a web client that allows you to use a smart card to encrypt,
> > decrypt, and sign messages. Obviously it would have to be open source
> > and there are some serious security issues to overcome, but it would be
> > nice to have more access to my encrypted messages. Also the economics
> > would be hard. Who wants to pay for an email service when you can get it
> > for "free"?
> >
> Have you looked at ProtonMail? https://protonmail.com/
>
> --
> Bob Williams
> System:  Linux 4.1.12-1-default
> Distro:  openSUSE 42.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.10
>
>

-- 
Respectfully,
Charlton Austin
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[Enigmail] separation from Mozilla

[Mike Acker]

  
  
the news I'm reading LWN
  suggests that Thunderbird's separation from Linux -- is is done
  deal
  
  hopefully Thunderbird will just become its own project
  thoughts,-anyone?

-- 
/Mike
  




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