Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: Google earth mapping for fgfs scenery

2006-05-26 Thread GWMobile
Something could be written in official flightgear to accept any photos 
or terrain mesh data in a certain directory with lat and long to replace 
the stock terrain there.


This would have many legitimate uses such as flying over public domain 
nasa downloaded mars or titan terrain for example.


Then as a separate and non official flight gear project others could 
write a keystroke script to get google earth or probably easier google 
maps to display tiles around the area you want to fly and screen capture 
them and save them to a directory in flightgear along with an 
appropriate latitude and longitude.



On Fri, 26 May 2006 8:11 pm, Pigeon wrote:
 I'm figuring out how to extract google earth imagery to map the 
current

 scenery in FGFS.

 Would it be posible?

 What about license issues? Anyone knows how can affect this to the 
fgfs

 license.


It has been discussed a couple of time on the list with using 
google

map/google earth scenery/images in FG. It's technically possible, but
yeah the licensing would be an area we don't want to get into. Most of
us prefer keeping FG as "free" as possible.


Pigeon.




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: Google earth mapping for fgfs scenery

2006-05-26 Thread GWMobile
I think someone would need to make an independent addon for separate 
installation to do that unofficially. It could be similiar to the code 
that people wrote for flight sims to query weather sites for weather 
data now at the location where the plane is flying in the sim.


Then it could be a plugin that people install themselves at their own 
risk.


Unless google would agree to it officially.

On Fri, 26 May 2006 8:11 pm, Pigeon wrote:
 I'm figuring out how to extract google earth imagery to map the 
current

 scenery in FGFS.

 Would it be posible?

 What about license issues? Anyone knows how can affect this to the 
fgfs

 license.


It has been discussed a couple of time on the list with using 
google

map/google earth scenery/images in FG. It's technically possible, but
yeah the licensing would be an area we don't want to get into. Most of
us prefer keeping FG as "free" as possible.


Pigeon.




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Typos caused by two inch mobile phone keyboard


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Flightgear wiki

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
simon wrote:

> Does anyone know who is the maintainer of the current wiki? 

I once tried to get into contact with him but didn't succeed in finding
any imprint on these pages  :-(

Martin.
-- 
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[Flightgear-devel] Re: Google earth mapping for fgfs scenery

2006-05-26 Thread Pigeon
> I'm figuring out how to extract google earth imagery to map the current
> scenery in FGFS.
> 
> Would it be posible?
> 
> What about license issues? Anyone knows how can affect this to the fgfs
> license.

It has been discussed a couple of time on the list with using google
map/google earth scenery/images in FG. It's technically possible, but
yeah the licensing would be an area we don't want to get into. Most of
us prefer keeping FG as "free" as possible.


Pigeon.




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Fri, 26 May 2006 20:16:14 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> "Martin Doege" wrote:
> 
> > If the low tide pattern is already marked in the land cover database
> > as such, [...]
> 
> No, we currently don't have the low tide marks stored in the DB but
> I'm sure that we could retrieve it somewhere. For almost every area
> that features such a significant tidal phenomenon there's always some
> website which carries some photos or charts that we're allowed to use
> for digitizing.
> This task won't be done done in five minutes, some 'real' work is
> required, but it should not be _that_ difficult because we don't have
> to invent something totally new.

..you're thinking xtide and nautical maps?  Only the latter would be
needed for the tidal scenery builds, and xtide could be drawn into
non-posix code builds like brlcad(.org) adds jove to have an 
emacs-like command editor.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
"Martin Doege" wrote:

> If the low tide pattern is already marked in the land cover database
> as such, [...]

No, we currently don't have the low tide marks stored in the DB but I'm
sure that we could retrieve it somewhere. For almost every area that
features such a significant tidal phenomenon there's always some
website which carries some photos or charts that we're allowed to use
for digitizing.
This task won't be done done in five minutes, some 'real' work is
required, but it should not be _that_ difficult because we don't have
to invent something totally new.

Cheers,
Martin.
-- 
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--


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Doege

Ok, so you are only talking about areas that are marked explicitly as
tidal areas in our land use/land cover data base, and then they would be
either at full tide or no tide ... that's probably simpler to manage.


The idea was more like a linear transition between the high and low
tide patterns. Only having the scenery flip-flop between two states is
probably better than nothing at all but not perfect either (e.g.,
around Mont Saint Michel, the rising water has a horizonal speed of up
to 1 m/s, so you can watch its movement easily!).

If the low tide pattern is already marked in the land cover database
as such, the only problem is calculating the horizontal shapes of the
water as it rises (or falls). If the bathymetry is unknown, perhaps
the horizontal patterns can be faked by using a 2D cellular automaton.
The rules just have to set up so that the water rushes back into the
narrower areas (where the water is supposedly deeper) first and when
it falls, retreats from those areas last. The CA could be running in
FG and occasionally update the sea / mud status of a randomly selected
tile that is both close to the water and within the visible range.

Martin


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Flightgear wiki

2006-05-26 Thread simon

Martin Spott wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  

Thoughts / comments ?



I don't want to discourage you, FlightGear needs every helping hand.
BUT it might be a bit counterproductive if everyone creates their own
FlightGear wiki. Before starting a new one you probably should have
contacted the maintainer of the other wiki to discuss how to proceed
(or are you actually the maintainer of the other wiki ?).

I thought the idea behind a wiki is to avoid spreading information over
dozends of sites by enabling everyone to contribute to _one_ wiki that
covers a certain topic. The whole idea is being foiled if numerous
wikies are being run in order to 'serve' FlightGear users.

Regards,
Martin.
  
Good thoughts - I agree one wiki will do, I'm just trying to make the 
case for a better wiki than the current one. 
Judging from the lack of response, I'm guessing there aren't many strong 
(any at all) opinions on the matter and this idea may just fall through 
the cracks.


Does anyone see advantages to the current seedwiki site that I'm 
overlooking? 
Does anyone know who is the maintainer of the current wiki? 


Simon


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[Flightgear-devel] Re: harrier checkin

2006-05-26 Thread Melchior FRANZ
Those who don't want the canopy to look like a toilet window (you know,
that milky non-see-through glass) might want to replace the "glass"
material line in Models/harrier.ac with the one from the Canberra.
That is:

  MATERIAL "Glass" rgb 0.2 0.2 0.2  amb 0.1 0.1 0.1  emis 0 0 0  spec 1 1 1  
shi 10  trans 0.75

Should be done to the bf109, too. Those milky canopies look horrible.

m.   :-)


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[Flightgear-devel] Google earth mapping for fgfs scenery

2006-05-26 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Fri, 26 May 2006 18:28:44 +0200, Mark wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I don't know if it's possible, but as far as license issues - that's
> the show stopper.
> However, if you are still interested, take a look at NASA's Worldwind,
> which is comparable to Google-earth.
> All of their imagery is definately in the public domain and using this
> would be possible.
> 
> http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/

..and it requires Wintendo 2000 or XP.  Yeehaw.

..I can still use screenshots from it for for the AirVenture(.org)
scenery that I and Dene has started building for the next FGLive cd or
dvd, the most important part is  the 4 entry routes from Ripon past Fisk
to KOSH, then the area around KOSH up north to Madison KMSN and 
down south to Fond du Lac KFDL.  

..it's all covered in  http://airventure.org/2006/flying/notam06.pdf 
and http://airventure.org/atc/  and diverges in significant ways from 
normal procedures and last years procedures and every years procedures,
so no need for polar bear fur to mess up nobly, cherio!  ;o)

> Gonzalo Aguilar Delgado wrote:
> 
> >Hi all!
> >
> >I'm figuring out how to extract google earth imagery to map the
> >current scenery in FGFS.
> >
> >Would it be posible?
> >
> >What about license issues? Anyone knows how can affect this to the
> >fgfs license.
> >
> >Thank you.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Durk Talsma

Curtis L. Olson wrote:

Martin Spott wrote:

The triangles don't have to be changed at all because in our Scenery
the tidal area is part of the ocean. The idea was about changing
nothing but the colour,
  


Ok, so you are only talking about areas that are marked explicitly as 
tidal areas in our land use/land cover data base, and then they would 
be either at full tide or no tide ... that's probably simpler to manage.


Curt.

I like the idea. Having some real-life experience flying over the 
"wadden" area that Martin (Doege) referred to, I can tell that the low 
tide areas can be very scenic. A change in texture would indeed suffice, 
because the elevation differences are almost negligable.


Cheers,
Durk


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Curtis L. Olson

Martin Spott wrote:

The triangles don't have to be changed at all because in our Scenery
the tidal area is part of the ocean. The idea was about changing
nothing but the colour,
  


Ok, so you are only talking about areas that are marked explicitly as 
tidal areas in our land use/land cover data base, and then they would be 
either at full tide or no tide ... that's probably simpler to manage.


Curt.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:

>  From a technical standpoint, how would you plan to "move" shoreline and 
> change all the underlying triangle structures in real time?

The triangles don't have to be changed at all because in our Scenery
the tidal area is part of the ocean. The idea was about changing
nothing but the colour,

Martin.
-- 
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--


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] small VMAP1 demo

2006-05-26 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Fri, 26 May 2006 13:04:10 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Martin Spott wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, no VMAP1 data available for the Great Lakes region, at least
> > not for the part where KOSH is located,
> 
> Here's an overview:
> 
>   ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/GIS/GISData/NIMA/VMAP1/vmap1_coverage_west.gif
> 
> As far as I was able to determine, KOSH ist located in the empty

..yup, FG puts you at 43d59.488m N and 88d32.931m W 
on the east end of RWY 27 by default.

> corner between the tiles 17 and 23, west of Lake Michigan,

..ok, that leaves draping satellite etc shots around it an option.
Parking 7000 planes there, I see a "parked plane" texture as the 
only viable option, or my framerates will drop  waaay down.
I remember seeing something here about that by Jon S.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Curtis L. Olson

Martin Spott wrote:


"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:

 

The trick maybe to find a good sea floor elevation database that is 
reasonably compatible with SRTM, and mesh the two data sets seamlessly.
   



 http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/bathymetry/relief.html

has an interesting survey on bathymetric data. But I don't think we
need a realistic simulation of the effect for use in Flightgear,
changing colours according to the tidal changes should be sufficient.
This could be done by declaring respective areas of the ocean as
tideland and moving the shoreline proportionally to the time that has
passed since the last hig- or low-tides.
Still someone would have to develop a schema to calculate the tides 
 



From a technical standpoint, how would you plan to "move" shoreline and 
change all the underlying triangle structures in real time?


Curt.

--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:

> The trick maybe to find a good sea floor elevation database that is 
> reasonably compatible with SRTM, and mesh the two data sets seamlessly.

  http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/bathymetry/relief.html

has an interesting survey on bathymetric data. But I don't think we
need a realistic simulation of the effect for use in Flightgear,
changing colours according to the tidal changes should be sufficient.
This could be done by declaring respective areas of the ocean as
tideland and moving the shoreline proportionally to the time that has
passed since the last hig- or low-tides.
Still someone would have to develop a schema to calculate the tides 

Martin.
-- 
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--


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Google earth mapping for fgfs scenery

2006-05-26 Thread Mark
I don't know if it's possible, but as far as license issues - that's the
show stopper.
However, if you are still interested, take a look at NASA's Worldwind,
which is comparable to Google-earth.
All of their imagery is definately in the public domain and using this
would be possible.

http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/

Gonzalo Aguilar Delgado wrote:

>Hi all!
>
>I'm figuring out how to extract google earth imagery to map the current
>scenery in FGFS.
>
>Would it be posible?
>
>What about license issues? Anyone knows how can affect this to the fgfs
>license.
>
>Thank you.
>
>
>  
>


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Curtis L. Olson

Martin Doege wrote:

However, calculating the tide for a given coordinate is probably the 
lesser problem here (one can use xtide's output for reference, etc.) 
My main issue  is whether the visualization of the tidal effects can 
somehow be done with e.g. a Nasal script (good) or by extensively 
modifying the FG engine itself (not so good, since the FG/SimGear 
source code is pretty abstract and not very well-commented IMHO)



You would almost have to redo the scenery in the areas with ocean 
coverage to include the ocean floor elevation, then draw the ocean as a 
seperate layer that can be moved up and down exposing more or less of 
the terrain.


The trick maybe to find a good sea floor elevation database that is 
reasonably compatible with SRTM, and mesh the two data sets seamlessly.


Curt.

--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Doege

It would have to be slightly more than just that. At the very least,
you'd need a delay-factor for the local hour-angle of the moon. Also anamplitude-factor.Even then, you'd sometimes get the tide happening about an hourdisplaced from reality due to the loss of the solar tide. If you added a
simple solar tide (i.e a delay factor for the local solar hour-angle anda solar-tide amplitude-factor) then you'd probably be getting a prettygood rough approximation for a given area. Good enough for a flight-sim,
certainly.
Yes, some kind of tide delay factor, preferably one that can vary from
place to place, as well as solar and lunar tidal amplitudes (from hour
angle and distance) would probably be required to get something roughly
accurate.

However, calculating the tide
for a given coordinate is probably the lesser problem here (one can use
xtide's output for reference, etc.) My main issue  is whether the
visualization of the tidal effects can somehow be done with e.g. a
Nasal script (good) or by extensively modifying the FG engine itself
(not so good, since the FG/SimGear source code is pretty abstract and
not very well-commented IMHO)

It would also better model those areas of the world where the solar tidedominates

I thought the lunar tide is always dominant and the solar tide just
adds to it during spring tide. Or have I misunderstood you there?

Martin



Re: [Flightgear-devel] F-14 anyone?

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
"flying.toaster" wrote:

> have a look at avsim forum for latest renders and ingame shots

Hey, your F-14 looks really 'harmless' with the wings swept forward  :-)
I'm happily looking forward to see this famous aircraft being part of
FlightGear.

Cheers,
Martin.

P.S.: For all those users that don't visit the AVSIM forum regularly
  it's a bit difficult to identify your posting. Here's the direct
  link for other poor fellows like me:

  
http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=198&topic_id=1757&mesg_id=1805

-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] F-14 anyone?

2006-05-26 Thread flying.toaster

3D model is now finished (well mostly since I intend to add the refuelling 
probe and boarding ladder)

 Now to the textures and animation (alas the latter is going to be tough 
particularly for the gear !)

have a look at avsim forum for latest renders and ingame shots



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[Flightgear-devel] Google earth mapping for fgfs scenery

2006-05-26 Thread Gonzalo Aguilar Delgado
Hi all!

I'm figuring out how to extract google earth imagery to map the current
scenery in FGFS.

Would it be posible?

What about license issues? Anyone knows how can affect this to the fgfs
license.

Thank you.


-- 
Gonzalo Aguilar Delgado - Ingeniero en Informática
[ Seguridad & Medios de pago ]



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] small VMAP1 demo

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:

> Sorry, no VMAP1 data available for the Great Lakes region, at least not
> for the part where KOSH is located,

Here's an overview:

  ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/GIS/GISData/NIMA/VMAP1/vmap1_coverage_west.gif

As far as I was able to determine, KOSH ist located in the empty corner
between the tiles 17 and 23, west of Lake Michigan,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Steve Hosgood

Martin Doege wrote:

Of course the tide calculations would not be required to be extremely 
accurate à la xtide -- the hour angle of the Moon would probably be 
quite sufficient as a broad indication of tide.




It would have to be slightly more than just that. At the very least, 
you'd need a delay-factor for the local hour-angle of the moon. Also an 
amplitude-factor.


Even then, you'd sometimes get the tide happening about an hour 
displaced from reality due to the loss of the solar tide. If you added a 
simple solar tide (i.e a delay factor for the local solar hour-angle and 
a solar-tide amplitude-factor) then you'd probably be getting a pretty 
good rough approximation for a given area. Good enough for a flight-sim, 
certainly.


It would also better model those areas of the world where the solar tide 
dominates and there's only one significant tide per day.


Steve


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[Flightgear-devel] Tides in FlightGear?

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Doege
Hi!

Something important I have been missing in FG when flying over the
North Sea is the effect of tides, i.e. the areas close to the coast
falling dry at low tide. I realize that there are not many parts of the
world where a low tide causes the sea to recede significantly, but in
the Wadden Sea and at the Atlantic coast of France around 
Mt. St. Michel this is quite dramatic and certainly noticeable from the air.


Now as far as I understand the FG scenery, the surface that represents
the sea is fixed at the mean sea level. So what I have been thinking,
would it be possible to put a few mud-colored rectangles on top of
the sea level plane that grow and shrink (by morphing linearly between
a "low tide" and a "high tide" size) according to tide? Or could the FG
rendering engine be told to somehow texture the mudflats differently
from the sea, so that no extra objects would be required?

Of course the tide calculations would not be required to be extremely
accurate à la xtide -- the hour angle of the Moon would probably be
quite sufficient as a broad indication of tide.

Martin



Re: [Flightgear-devel] small VMAP1 demo

2006-05-26 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:
> Arnt Karlsen wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 May 2006 09:27:01 + (UTC), Martin wrote in message 

>>> I think I'll start with a 2x2 degree shapefile set for KOSH, so if
>>> someone would build a scenery tile from that 
>> 
>> ..url and approx eta?
> 
> It depends - I suggest to do it yourself if you're in hurry. Otherwise
> please wait until you read the respective announcement.

Sorry, no VMAP1 data available for the Great Lakes region, at least not
for the part where KOSH is located,

Martin.
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